Work For A Free Gift?

[Seabass]

I still think you're saying the same thing Luther said, just differently.



But this is the problem that makes it an issue of semantics. You say "belief only" falls short, even as you say "Faith is obedience", which would mean "belief only" doesn't fall short. How can you be certain Luther is talking about a faith that is not the same as obedience?

Are you saying that the spirit behind your reasoning exists to cast blame? I have never heard the Holy Spirit cast blame. When does the Love that suffered a cross and forgave ever cast blame?

Again, I do not agree that it is just "semantics".

1) Faith and no obedience = saved
2) Faith and obedience = saved


#1 and #2 are not the same at all.
Luther claimed #1 while the bible teaches #2.

"Belief only' therefore is NOT obedience for man has NOT been commanded to "believe only" to be saved.

 

[MarkT]

Us believing is an obedient work and men are commanded to believe (Acts 16:31). Yet the work of believing (Jn 6:27-29) does not earn the free gift but is just meeting a condition God placed upon His free gift.

Us believing is the work of God.

Acts 16:31 doesn't say men are commanded to believe. It says, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved'. Like I said, the gift is the sacrifice for former sins for all who repent and believe. For instance, if a man repents and he believes the word of the Lord today, then his former sins will be forgotten. However the teachings of Jesus are for life going forward. Jesus said

Matthew 7:24
“Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock;

Matthew 7:26
And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

So if you believe this, then you will keep his commandments (because he said if you love me you will keep my commandments John 14:15) And likewise store up treasure, because he said store up treasure, 'but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Mt. 6:20-21

 

[childeye]

What most people are usually upset about in the works vs faith argument is pride about our good works (Eph 2:9).

You got this right. This is what Satan's vanity is all about. He sat as an accuser of men in heaven and not an excuser. He appears as a tempter on earth and not a discourager of sin. Therefore, his pride is lifted up even as he is putting others down, through a righteousness by works reasoning.

If we can't do it because we understand the reasoning behind it, we should at least do it because we are told to do it.

John 6:27 to me, is saying at least some of us need food from heaven to do it, (act in righteousness). As in blessed are those who hunger for righteousness. Matthew 5:6. But your point above is accurate concerning faith.

 

[childeye]

Again, I do not agree that it is just "semantics".

1) Faith and no obedience = saved
2) Faith and obedience = saved


#1 and #2 are not the same at all.
Luther claimed #1 while the bible teaches #2.

"Belief only' therefore is NOT obedience for man has NOT been commanded to "believe only" to be saved.

You're missing the point even because of the semantics you are introducing. Luther is saying faith alone, because we're already disobedient. God condemns us all as disobedient and in need of mercy in some degree. Romans 11:32. He desires mercy and understanding without hypocrisy. If we wish to be obedient we need to be merciful also. Luther never said men of faith won't do good works.

 

[john darling]

He desires mercy and understanding without hypocrisy. If we wish to be obedient we need to be merciful also. Luther never said men of faith won't do good works.

Well, so far it looks like no one is teaching that we shouldn't do any kind of good work for any reason. Even things like repentance, forgiveness and prayer are things we must do. So, aside from those three, what else did Jesus tell us to do with life?

 

[childeye]

Well, so far it looks like no one is teaching that we shouldn't do any kind of good work for any reason. Even things like repentance, forgiveness and prayer are things we must do. So, aside from those three, what else did Jesus tell us to do with life?

With Life?
I've read this post about five times and nothing comes to mind. So what is on your mind when you ask this?

 

[john darling]

With Life?
I've read this post about five times and nothing comes to mind. So what is on your mind when you ask this?

Hi CE. Yeah, with life. Like, when Jesus says things like, "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me" what's he talking about? Obey what? Once we get to the point where we acknowledge that obedience is expected, it seems reasonable that we look at what it is we are supposed to be obeying. What do you think about this list?

1. Obey my commandments - John 14:15, John 14:21, John 14:23; 2 John 6

2. Love God and others - John 15:12, Matthew 22:37-40

3. Go and preach to all the world - Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19

4. Don't delay, do it now - John 4:35, John 9:4, John 12:35

5. Take nothing for your journey - Luke 9:3, Luke 10:4

6. Don't work for food - John 6:27, Matthew 6:24-33, Luke 12:29

7. Work for me & my kingdom - Matthew 11:28-30, Luke 12:31

8. Sell all that you own - Luke 11:41, Luke 12:33, Luke 18:22

9. Don't store things that you're not using - Matthew 6:19

10. Don't charge for what you do - Matthew 10:8

11. Give to God what belongs to God - Luke 20:25, Matthew 22:21

12. Don't waste time on argumentative people - Matthew 7:6

13. Invite the poor to eat with you - Luke 14:12-14

14. Give to anyone who asks - Luke 6:30, Mark 6:37

15. If you pray, fast, or give, do it secretly - Matthew 6:1-11

16. Don't use vain repetitions when praying - Matthew 6:7

17. Don't advertise healings - Matthew 9:30, Matthew 12:16

18. Take the lowest position in meetings - Luke 14:8-10

19. Don't be called Father, Mister, etc. - Matthew 23:9-10

20. Beware of hypocrisy and greed - Luke 12:1, 15

21. Take up your cross and follow me - Mark 8:34

22. Live in me, and live in my love - John 15:4, 9

23. Eat whatever people give you - Luke 10:7

24. Rejoice when you are persecuted - Luke 6:23

25. Move to another city if persecuted - Matthew 10:23

26. Love, bless, and pray for your enemies - Luke 6:27-29

27. Do to others as you'd have them do to you - Luke 6:31

28. Be agreeable with your adversaries - Luke 12:58, Matthew 5:25

29. Forgive others - Mark 11:25-26, Matthew 6:12, Luke 6:37

30. Cut off your hand if it offends you - Mark 9:43

31. Don't be afraid of people - Luke 12:4-5

32. Let the dead bury the dead - Matthew 8:22

33. Rebuke a brother if he sins - Luke 17:3, Matthew 18:15-17

34. When you judge, do it fairly - John 7:24

35. You must be born again- John 3:3, Luke 18:17, Mark 10:15

36. Don't make promises for any reason - Matthew 5:34-37

37. Don't sell things in God's house - John 2:16

38. Don't forbid others to preach Christ - Luke 9:50

39. Teach all nations to obey these rules - Matthew 28:20

40. When you have done all these things, say, "We have only done that which was our duty to do." - Luke 17:10

 

[dadof10]

The bible itself has many example of God's CONDITIONAL grace as with Naaman have to CONDITIONALLY dip 7 times in order to receive God' gracious gift of healing. The work in dipping earned nothing but was necessary for Naaman to do to receive the free gift. Again, another biblical fact that does not jibe with Luther's idea of faith only.

 

[john darling]

I came across a graphic novel of the Bible the other day and noticed the story of Samuel as a child. When God first spoke to him he woke up and went to his carer (Eli) thinking it was he who spoke. Eli said it wasn't him. Samuel went back to sleep and this process repeated two more times until Eli realized what was happening and told Samuel to say, "speak, your servant hears" and then God spoke (1 Samuel 3:9).

It was interesting to me why God waited to say more until Samuel spoke this pharse. He could have started speaking to Samuel the first time; why wait? I think it's because it was important for Samuel to understand that his job was to listen to God. He needed that reinforcement right at the start. There was a condition to meet before God would speak.

 

[LovethroughDove]

2 Corinthians 13:5-6 Examine yourselves to see whether you are (in the faith); test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you - unless, of course, you fail the test? And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test.

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son

If you are not being conformed into the likeness of God's Son, you haven't been given the gift. The gift is acknowledging that you are aware of the magnitude of what Jesus has done, and you know him...........and it doesn't just stop there.

Ephesians 4:22-23 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Examining ourselves is the work we do. To let the Holy Spirit do his work in us, is "us" submitting to the Spirit. That is our work. We are doing work, cause it is not exactly easy to let the Holy Spirit take over our "old self". If you read Paul's letters, he struggled all the time. Even Jesus prayed that Peter would not fail, cause Satan wanted to sift Peter like wheat.

 

[dadof10]

I came across a graphic novel of the Bible the other day and noticed the story of Samuel as a child. When God first spoke to him he woke up and went to his carer (Eli) thinking it was he who spoke. Eli said it wasn't him. Samuel went back to sleep and this process repeated two more times until Eli realized what was happening and told Samuel to say, "speak, your servant hears" and then God spoke (1 Samuel 3:9).

It was interesting to me why God waited to say more until Samuel spoke this pharse. He could have started speaking to Samuel the first time; why wait? I think it's because it was important for Samuel to understand that his job was to listen to God. He needed that reinforcement right at the start. There was a condition to meet before God would speak.

Good point...

 

[childeye]

Hi CE. Yeah, with life. Like, when Jesus says things like, "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me" what's he talking about? Obey what? Once we get to the point where we acknowledge that obedience is expected, it seems reasonable that we look at what it is we are supposed to be obeying. What do you think about this list?

1. Obey my commandments - John 14:15, John 14:21, John 14:23; 2 John 6

2. Love God and others - John 15:12, Matthew 22:37-40

3. Go and preach to all the world - Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19

4. Don't delay, do it now - John 4:35, John 9:4, John 12:35

5. Take nothing for your journey - Luke 9:3, Luke 10:4

6. Don't work for food - John 6:27, Matthew 6:24-33, Luke 12:29

7. Work for me & my kingdom - Matthew 11:28-30, Luke 12:31

8. Sell all that you own - Luke 11:41, Luke 12:33, Luke 18:22

9. Don't store things that you're not using - Matthew 6:19

10. Don't charge for what you do - Matthew 10:8

11. Give to God what belongs to God - Luke 20:25, Matthew 22:21

12. Don't waste time on argumentative people - Matthew 7:6

13. Invite the poor to eat with you - Luke 14:12-14

14. Give to anyone who asks - Luke 6:30, Mark 6:37

15. If you pray, fast, or give, do it secretly - Matthew 6:1-11

16. Don't use vain repetitions when praying - Matthew 6:7

17. Don't advertise healings - Matthew 9:30, Matthew 12:16

18. Take the lowest position in meetings - Luke 14:8-10

19. Don't be called Father, Mister, etc. - Matthew 23:9-10

20. Beware of hypocrisy and greed - Luke 12:1, 15

21. Take up your cross and follow me - Mark 8:34

22. Live in me, and live in my love - John 15:4, 9

23. Eat whatever people give you - Luke 10:7

24. Rejoice when you are persecuted - Luke 6:23

25. Move to another city if persecuted - Matthew 10:23

26. Love, bless, and pray for your enemies - Luke 6:27-29

27. Do to others as you'd have them do to you - Luke 6:31

28. Be agreeable with your adversaries - Luke 12:58, Matthew 5:25

29. Forgive others - Mark 11:25-26, Matthew 6:12, Luke 6:37

30. Cut off your hand if it offends you - Mark 9:43

31. Don't be afraid of people - Luke 12:4-5

32. Let the dead bury the dead - Matthew 8:22

33. Rebuke a brother if he sins - Luke 17:3, Matthew 18:15-17

34. When you judge, do it fairly - John 7:24

35. You must be born again- John 3:3, Luke 18:17, Mark 10:15

36. Don't make promises for any reason - Matthew 5:34-37

37. Don't sell things in God's house - John 2:16

38. Don't forbid others to preach Christ - Luke 9:50

39. Teach all nations to obey these rules - Matthew 28:20

40. When you have done all these things, say, "We have only done that which was our duty to do." - Luke 17:10

Pretty impressive list. Your question seemed to be pointing to a list like this, but I really wasn't sure you were expecting me to go through all of scripture and list every thing Jesus said to do.

 

[childeye]

Again, I do not agree that it is just "semantics".

1) Faith and no obedience = saved
2) Faith and obedience = saved


#1 and #2 are not the same at all.
Luther claimed #1 while the bible teaches #2.

"Belief only' therefore is NOT obedience for man has NOT been commanded to "believe only" to be saved.

Believing doesn't come by commandment. However, obedience does come by believing in the one you obey.

 

[JLB]

Again, I do not agree that it is just "semantics".

1) Faith and no obedience = saved
2) Faith and obedience = saved


#1 and #2 are not the same at all.
Luther claimed #1 while the bible teaches #2.

"Belief only' therefore is NOT obedience for man has NOT been commanded to "believe only" to be saved.

The biblical "believe carries the idea of obedience as does faith.

Unbelief is disobedience. Same Greek word.

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV


Probably the clearest example of this is from the garden, where Adam did not obey God, because he believed Satan instead.

If he would have believed God, he would have obeyed God.


Whenever we see the phrase believe and be saved, it always carries the meaning of obey and be saved.

The Gospel of the kingdom is; Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

If we believe this we will obey and repent, which is to turn to God, by turning from Satan.

Then we will be forgiven our sins.

Those who only believe but don't obey by turning from serving Satan, to God and serving Him, can not expect to be forgiven.


It's just that simple!


JLB

 

[MarkT]

John 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jesus clearly said to LABOUR for the food that abides unto everlasting life, which He GIVES.

Jesus GIVES everlasting life, it's a free gift. Then why LABOUR for a free gift?

Free gifts, as everlasting life, comes with condition(s) and one must work in meeting the conditions placed upon the free gift. The work earns nothing but is just a condition, a part of the free gift.

We don't labour for the free gift. We labour for the gospel.

 

[john darling]

Your question seemed to be pointing to a list like this, but I really wasn't sure you were expecting me to go through all of scripture and list every thing Jesus said to do.

No, I wasn't expecting you to do that. I was saying once we've agreed that obedience is necessary then we can move on to what it is Jesus expected us to do with/in life. I posted the list because you wanted to know what I meant. Do you see anything from the list which you feel would be good for further discussion? There's some pretty crunchy stuff there...

Or I dunno, maybe this isn't the proper thread for it. I'll start another thread about this particular topic.

 

[Seabass]

We don't labour for the free gift. We labour for the gospel.

Jn 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you:"


Jesus GIVES everlasting life, therefore it is a free gift yet at the same time Jesus said to labour for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.


Jesus' free gift of everlasting life comes with conditions attached (belief, repentance, confession and submitting to baptism) and one must work to meet these conditions to receive the gift. Some people falsely claim that doing any work would mean earning the gift but it does not. The obedient work being done is just meeting conditions.

Heb 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

Was Noah earning the salvation of his household by the conditional obedient work in building the ark? No. The salvation of his household was by grace but that free gift of grace came with the condition of building the ark.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I am going to compare this gift we are given like a set of weights or any workout equipment. You don't use the gift, nothing will change.

John 15:9-10 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

The gift we have been given can be not used, or totally ignored. It is a free gift, but we decide how we use it. (or if we use it at all)

 

[Seabass]

The biblical "believe carries the idea of obedience as does faith.

Unbelief is disobedience. Same Greek word.

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV


Probably the clearest example of this is from the garden, where Adam did not obey God, because he believed Satan instead.

If he would have believed God, he would have obeyed God.


Whenever we see the phrase believe and be saved, it always carries the meaning of obey and be saved.

The Gospel of the kingdom is; Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

If we believe this we will obey and repent, which is to turn to God, by turning from Satan.

Then we will be forgiven our sins.

Those who only believe but don't obey by turning from serving Satan, to God and serving Him, can not expect to be forgiven.


It's just that simple!


JLB

Yes.

In the ASV in Jn 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

The one that "believeth" is being contrasted to the one that "obeyeth not".
Believing is obeying.
Not believing is disobedience.


Believing is a work.

1) It is God's will that men BELIEVETH (present tense) and be saved Jn 6:40.
2) Jesus said those that enter the kingdom of heaven/saved are the ones that DOETH (present tense) the will of God, Matt 7:21.
3) Therefore believing is DOING, a work, an action, a thing done and not a mere mental assent of the mind, not just an acknowledgment of particular facts and nothing more.

It should be no surprise then that Jesus calls belief a work in Jn 6:27-29.

 

[Seabass]

I am going to compare this gift we are given like a set of weights or any workout equipment. You don't use the gift, nothing will change.

John 15:9-10 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

The gift we have been given can be not used, or totally ignored. It is a free gift, but we decide how we use it. (or if we use it at all)

Your post is about "USING" the free gift. My point is one does not even receive the free gift unless he FIRST works to meet the conditions placed upon the free gift.

In the verses you cited above, it says "If you obey (subjunctive mood) my commands, you will remain in my love"

According to Strongs' "The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. "

So the action of remaining in the love of Christ may or may not occur depending on the circumstance if one obeys Christ's commands or not..

One is not earning the love of Christ by obeying Christ's commands but one must work to meet the condition (obey commands) placed upon remaining in the love of Christ. There is a general love God has for all mankind Jn 3:16 but there is a special Fatherly love God has for those that are His children and being in that special Fatherly love is conditional and one must take care to keep himself in that love, Jude 1:21.