Terms are tricky since they can carry several differing nuances, and even opposite connotations. I can't speak for Luther, but I'm not sure you two would actually disagree. The term obedience is relative to what it is obedient to. Which came first faith, or obedience? It's oftentimes arguing semantics.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Work For A Free Gift?
- Thread starter Seabass
- Start date
dadof10
Member
And we have the freewill choice as to which we will obey.
Oh No, you used the F word again.And we have the freewill choice as to which we will obey.
Seabass
Member
Hi,
In the context Paul said "obedience UNTO righteousness". What is righteousness? Psa 119:172 ".... all thy commandments are righteousness." Those then that are obedient unto God's commands are the ones saved (Heb 5:9) as Paul points out in the next two verses how those in Rome had OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine (God's commands) then were freed from sin. Luther's faith only would fall short of obedience unto God's righteousness/commands.
You asked me which came first faith, or obedience?
Faith is obedience so one has not/cannot obey until he does have faith....faith = obedience.
Again Paul said "obedience UNTO righteousness" and Paul NEVER said "obedience BECAUSE one has already been made righteous by faith only."
dadof10
Member
The Bible says the free gift (because no one did good) is justification by his grace; God in his forbearance - which implies goodness, mercy, and righteousness - forgave us our former sins through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. Romans 3:21-24 So you can look at God's sacrifice as a gift. So assuming we believe him who sent Jesus, and we hear and understand our Master, and so we keep his commandments, and all this by faith Romans 3:26, so now we labor for the word of God, for wisdom, knowledge and understanding, for this is our food and drink, and for the spiritual gifts, like the gift of prophecy, which come from above. 1 Cor. 14:1 Of course they also labor who preach the gospel.
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This is arguing semantics. But which is more true: I have obedience, therefore I believed, or I have believed, therefore I obeyed?
Seabass
Member
Us believing is an obedient work and men are commanded to believe (Acts 16:31). Yet the work of believing (Jn 6:27-29) does not earn the free gift but is just meeting a condition God placed upon His free gift.
Seabass
Member
Believing is obeying therefore one who does not believe is disobeying.
Jn 3:36 ASV "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."
Note how "believeth" is set in contrast to "obeyeth not". The one that believeth (present tense) is the one who is presently obeying. On the other hand, as long as one continues to not believe he continues to obey not. Just as 1 Jn 3:10 the one that continues to not work righteousness (not believe) continues to not be of God.
Therefore it is not biblically possible for one to say "I have obedience, therefore I believe" for one is in and remains in DISobedience until he believes....one cannot FIRST obey THEN believe when believing IS obeying.
I have come across those that claim they were saved by a dead belief only then AFTER they were saved they did obedient works. This is not possible for a saving belief is an obedient work.
I can appreciate what you are saying, but we don't always know what to pray for. Romans 8:26.
This is well said. You do contemplate and account for semantics very well. Then why do you differ with Luther? Because he says faith alone, while you say faith also with obedience in that faith. I still don't think he'd argue with you about that.
That depends. Suppose these people are saying that only after receiving the Holy Spirit did they have someone guiding them so that they could obey?
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Seabass
Member
The Christians petition to God may not always be perfect, James 4:2,3 but he is still commanded to pray. I may pray for "x" yet God foreknows that if He grants me "x" it will cause major problems in the future. Therefore God answers my petition with a "no" for my own good even though in my finite position I cannot understand why God would deny me. I just need to trust in God that God is doing what is best for me when He answers with a "no" instead of complaining that God denied me.
Or I may fail, due to my ignorance, to ask for those things that would be beneficial to me.
Either way would be imperfection on my part in praying.
The context of Rom 8:26 speaks of those who are in " sufferings of this present time" (verse 18) therefore the " the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities" the Christian can become bogged down in sufferings, infirmities, trials, tribulations he may now know how to put it in words so the Spirit "maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered". The Christian is still commanded to pray, and Paul is not saying the Spirit prays for us in our stead but helps us with our prayers due to our imperfections and lack of full understanding.
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smaller
Member
It's a common misnomer to "separate" God's Word from His Spirit, and from Jesus Himself.
The Word tells us this about "Himself."
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Some, unfortunately, confine Jesus to the printed page, as type on paper, and think of Him as the servant of their own partial sights. Such have little respect for Living Word and what HE DOES, within.
When a person calls upon Christ to save them, they do so via the Holy Spirit, already working IN THEM, as He has so penetrated them to speak and to call upon Him and He DOES therein arrive within those who so call.
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
God in Christ is not some man's puppet, activated only by the applications of various exercises of rituals and/or various formula's. That entire methodology is suspect, if approached that way.
We should learn to recognize His Spirit, within, and not diminish Him by the insistence of ritualism or deny Him and His Internal Activity via the lack of ritualism. THAT is dead religiosity, and could almost be seen as a practice of magic, making and forcing God in Christ to ARISE by formulas.
Acts 3:6
Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
1 Peter 1:18
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
Attempting to make The Spirit of God Christ IN HEART of NO EFFECT via "any" tradition is a tradition of the spiritually blinded.
1 Peter 1:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Some treat The Spirit of God in Christ as if He is a subject of their activation coupons and only responds and only can respond to their formula's.
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
Believest thou this?
IF the Holy Spirit of God in Christ has entered the heart, is it RIGHT to tell same that it never happened unless and until they are baptized into a christian SECT? And those not in that sect, by their traditions, are then potentially DAMNED? What kind of Gospel is THAT?
1 Corinthians 6:
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
Who teaches brothers and sisters in faith to potentially damn one another over ritualism or traditions? Certainly not The Spirit of God in Christ in them, who is LIFE and LOVE and ONE Spirit.
1 Cor. 12:
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
When any person has "drank" of the Spirit of God in Christ, they did NOT pick up a glass of water, drink, and then confirm it so, or deny it happened, on that basis.
Seabass
Member
I do not agree with you that it is just "semantics".
"Faith" and "faith alone" are not the same thing, they are 180 degrees opposite of each other.
Faith IS obedience therefore one with faith IS OBEYING where as faith alone excludes obedience.
childeye said:
Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that OBEY him Heb 5:9.
"Belief only" falls short of obeying Christ so they cannot say they were saved by belief only THEN obeyed.
The Holy Spirit, through inspired writers, gave us His written scripture, the bible, that tells us what to obey. So they have no excuse in not obeying.
2 Tim 3:16,17
I don't view prayer as a commandment, even though I must concede that it does start out as such. In fact I don't view anything in Christ as a commandment, but rather a way unto life. Praying unceasingly is really no different than walking in the Spirit to me. It's not that I have any issues with the term obedience as pertains to God. It's the word disobedience that is perplexing to me. The spirit behind it is not rational.
I still think you're saying the same thing Luther said, just differently.
But this is the problem that makes it an issue of semantics. You say "belief only" falls short, even as you say "Faith is obedience", which would mean "belief only" doesn't fall short. How can you be certain Luther is talking about a faith that is not the same as obedience?
Are you saying that the spirit behind your reasoning exists to cast blame? I have never heard the Holy Spirit cast blame. When does the Love that suffered a cross and forgave ever cast blame?
Some antics with semantics: God said we all don't believe and are disobedient, and the disobedient believed and the obedient did not believe. John 9:39.
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Seabass
Member
The Holy Spirit works in them through His word and not apart from that word.
Faith comes by hearing the WORD. Rom 10:17
Man has an obligation to read and study the SCRIPTURE Acts 17:11
SCRIPTURE is all one needs 2 Tim 3:16,17.
When one reads what has been WROTE he can understand Eph 3:3,4
God draws men by the word when that word is "taught" and "heard" and "learned" Jn 6:45.
So the Holy Spirit does not, nor has any obligation, to come to man and miraculously "enlighten" man's understanding. In Acts 8 the Holy Spirit did not miraculously enlighten the understanding of the eunuch but instead sent Phillip to "preach" to the eunuch so he could hear the word preached and understand. We are then confined to the printed page, the word of God, to gain understanding.
childeye said:
Christ made belief, Jn 8:24; repentance Lk 13:3,5 confession Mt 10:32,33 and baptism necessary to salvation. Whether one wants to call that "ritual" or a "formula" or whatever does not in anyway change what Christ has required of man to be saved. What you call performing "rituals" is what the bible calls "working righteousness" Acts 10:35.
You quote Jn 11:26. Is a continued living and believing a "ritual" a "formula" one must/perform do to be saved/not die?
1 Cor 6:11 says ye are "washed" and 1 Cor 12 says "we are baptized". Both refer to being water baptized which Christ requires for salvation Mk 16:16. Is being baptized then a "ritual"?
john darling
Member
Hi Seabass. I don't think it's so much an issue of God lying or not lying, but rather our lack of understanding. I'm not saying you don't understand but only that the issue of who is saved and who is lost really only can be judged by God, though I'm also not dismissing the concept of confidence. Perhaps a safer way to view the issue is to believe that we are saved, or to believe others are saved (or lost) as opposed to knowing that we know that we know something which only God himself could possibly know for sure. There is always room, right up to the very moment we die, to turn away from God.
As for being saved by good works, Jesus made it very clear that he expects obedience and it's almost certain that people who choose not to obey will not receive salvation, I think because a refusal to obey is synonymous with a refusal to apply the values of the Kingdom of Heaven. It's like asking why God would want to include people in his kingdom who show by their actions that they don't want to live by the values of that Kingdom (Mark 8:38).
I find this topic of obedience is usually one of the most easy topics to resolve because it's so clear. What most people are usually upset about in the works vs faith argument is pride about our good works (Eph 2:9). Definitely we should not be proud or boast about our good works. Once we get past that part, very few argue against obedience for the sake of obedience, making obedience a tacit necessity. Getting to this part is easy.
The real problem (as I've experienced it) comes when we start talking about the specifics of WHAT Jesus told us to do. For example, you cited John 6:27, which is an example I hardly ever hear anyone talk about so I'm glad you brought it up. "Don't even work for food". Food is one of the most basic necessities of life and very similar to Jesus' teachings from Matthew 6:24-34 where he goes into much more detail. He says we cannot work for God and money at the same time without cheating on one or the other. He says we should not allow worry about food and clothing stop us from stepping out in faith. He says all the world chases after these things, but that we should not be like them and that our heavenly father will take care of us if we seek his kingdom first.
This is a teaching which hits right at the heart of some of our deepest fears; it's not something we are likely to practice without some strong encouragement, so Jesus gives commands. If we can't do it because we understand the reasoning behind it, we should at least do it because we are told to do it. The commands are there to help us overcome our greed, fear, pride, laziness or whatever reasons stopping us from acting in the ways which God wants us to behave (John 7:17).
john darling
Member
Hi Seabass. Yeah, water baptism is a ritaul, in general, though I think it can be done sincerely based on an individuals perception of it.
It was an OT ritual which carried over into the NT because Jesus allowed himself to be water Baptized and because his disciples did it (though Jesus himself didn't baptize people with water (John 4:2)).
Much like circumcision of the body was replaced by circumscision of the heart (Rom 2:29), so was water baptism replaced by baptism with the holy spirit. The word "baptize" itself means "to cover". Technically we can be baptized with sodapop and the word would still accurately action taking place. It's only a cultural tradition that the word became synonymous with water.
John Baptist said, "I indeed baptize you with water, but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost" (Mark 1:8). Paul realized he wasn't supposed to baptize with water (1 Cor 1:17). I think the reason Jesus allowed his disciples to baptize with water was probably because they were having trouble leaving behind the old ways (thus giving them time to adjust), and also becasue he didn't see it as a particularly serious issue. If someone gets water baptized sincerely, then I think God can appreciate that sincerity. It's only when people start teaching that water baptism is a requirement that it becomes a problem.