Works save? Rubbish

[Heidi]

I meant exactly what I said. If our interpretation doesn't contradict any other scripture then it is a true one. And my interretations do not contradict any scripture. I find an interpretation that reconciles all scripture. And others who do the same thing will also have a correct "interpretation." That's why Paul tells us how to distinguish false apostles because they pass along a different gospel than he preached. So again, any interpretation that contradicts any part of the bible is a false one.

I know you meant what you said and that is why I meant what I said. As I stated, you are saying that any interpretation which doesn't agree with your's (because your's supposedly doesn't contradict the Bible) isn't right. As you can see, people disagree with you fairly often and if you aren't willing to admit that you may be wrong on some things...then watch out.

If all your interpretations truly do not contradict other scriptures on all matters of faith, then you should write a book since you would be the first one to ever have accomplished a total harmony of biblical doctrines and you would be the greatest theologian in the history of the Church.

Can you see how your reasoning is very much lacking in your argument?

So you're saying there are no false doctrines. Is that correct? :o If so, you're now calling Paul a liar because he says there is. And he uses the exact same criteria for knowing which ones are false and which ones are true as I do. Therefore, since you do not believe the bible, then your poststs are not credible.

Or do you strive to have interpretations that contradict the bible? :o Your post is in effect, admitting that you have contradictions that contradict the bible. Do you want to keep them? If so, why? :o Your post doesn't make any sense.

 

[Heidi]

And by the way, I have started writing many books explaining the bible. But then I thought; "If people don't believe the bible in the first place then why would they believe my books?" So then I realized it was pointless.

The bible was written with the same Spirit that dwells in true believers so they will always agree with the bible because the same spirit cannot contradict itself. But as Jesus said, there will be many false prophets and false teachers and Paul explians we will know them by whether or not they pass along a different gospel or different Jesus than he preached.

Therefore, saying that Mary was a virgin all her life when the bible clearly contradicts that is passing along a different gospel.

Saying that works saves us when the whole NT testament says we are saved by faith, not works, is a different gospel.

Claiming that all will be saved contradicts the whole NT so it is a different gospel.

Claiming that we are still under law, including the Sabbath law instead of grace is a different gospel.

All you have to do is read the bible to know what is true teaching and what is false. But some people, including people who call themselves scholars to get the praises of men, refuse to give up their false gospels and will rationalize them away to suit their own desires as Paul tells us they will do in 2 Timothy.

So it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see which teachings are true and which are false. All it takes is honesty and belief of the what the bible says.

 

[Free]

:o :o :o

So you're saying there are no false doctrines. Is that correct?

No, that is not correct at all.

And he uses the exact same criteria for knowing which ones are false and which ones are true as I do.

And what criteria did Paul use?

Therefore, since you do not believe the bible, then your poststs are not credible.

Who said I don't believe the Bible? I sure didn't say that.

Or do you strive to have interpretations that contradict the bible?

Where did you get this idea from? Of course I don't.

Your post is in effect, admitting that you have contradictions that contradict the bible.

You clearly aren't following what I am saying. My point is that the Bible's teachings on a given subject are, in many cases, very complex when taken as a whole. Some of them are so complex that contradictions develop between different people when trying to make sense of what is being said. This does not mean that the Bible contradicts itself, but that our understanding is lacking.

And by the way, I have started writing many books explaining the bible. But then I thought; "If people don't believe the bible in the first place then why would they believe my books?" So then I realized it was pointless.

The bible was written with the same Spirit that dwells in true believers so they will always agree with the bible because the same spirit cannot contradict itself.

:o The whole essence of what you are saying is that if anyone's interpretation of the Bible disagrees with your's, they are wrong. Spiritual pride is looked down upon in the Bible, just so you know. And yet in all of this, you ignore the fact that the Bible has many instances of disagreements among people in the early Church, people who Paul referred to as Christians.

All you have to do is read the bible to know what is true teaching and what is false. But some people, including people who call themselves scholars to get the praises of men, refuse to give up their false gospels and will rationalize them away to suit their own desires as Paul tells us they will do in 2 Timothy.

You are very ignorant of theology, the Greek language, the process of interpretation and church history. How is it that you know all the true teachings while those who are not ignorant of any of those things don't? Why are they wrong and you're right?

 

[guibox]

Claiming that we are still under law, including the Sabbath law instead of grace is a different gospel.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? Nay we establish the law!"

"Wherefore the law is holy just and good"

St. Paul


Words that Heidi and other law abrogators choose to ignore because it doesn't fit into their theology. Instead of really studying why Paul criticizes the law in one area and praises it in other areas to find out what context Paul is speaking, they'd rather take their own preconceived ideas and make Paul say what he isn't saying.

The Pauline disciples on this forum don't even know what their master teaches. :roll:

 

[Heidi]

God puts his desires in his sheep. Sheep will aways want to be sheep because they are sheep - they are not goats. Jesus doesn't lie!

Please keep in mind that Jesus only used sheep as an analogy. We are not literally sheep.

Well Duh!!! :o

You completely missed my point. You keep saying that since Jesus called us sheep and sheep know their shepherd's voice, that we will never be lost. However, we are not sheep - we can reason. So yes, we do hear his voice, but the choice is still up to us to keep on following. Sheep don't know any better, we do.

Do you really think that God gives us the choice of whether we sin or not, that is, to choose between what is right and what is wrong, as Christians, but once we choose to follow Christ (right choice) we lose all ability to choose whether or not we will continue to follow him (wrong choice)? How is that consistent?

Do you not believe the bible when it calls us sheep? Should it have not done so? :o Do you know why the bible calls us sheep? I have already explained it. You sould be able to find it on this thread.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Wait, isn't it true you have been saved by faith, but faith is useless without good works ,and good works are useless without faith,you need both .Right? :eggface:

You need faith - without faith it is impossible to please him.

 

[Vic C.]

... Do you not believe the bible when it calls us sheep? Should it have not done so? :o Do you know why the bible calls us sheep? I have already explained it. You sould be able to find it on this thread.

Ooooook, lets take it down a notch. 8-)

 

[Heidi]

Claiming that we are still under law, including the Sabbath law instead of grace is a different gospel.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? Nay we establish the law!"

"Wherefore the law is holy just and good"

St. Paul


Words that Heidi and other law abrogators choose to ignore because it doesn't fit into their theology. Instead of really studying why Paul criticizes the law in one area and praises it in other areas to find out what context Paul is speaking, they'd rather take their own preconceived ideas and make Paul say what he isn't saying.

The Pauline disciples on this forum don't even know what their master teaches. :roll:

Again, as I have said many, many times on this forum, the law now exists to convict us of sin, period. You yourself have even said that. Do you not believe your own words? :o

I have also agreed with Paul many, many times on this forum that "love is the fulfillment of the law." Once we receive forgiveness from God we can now forgive others which keeps us from stealing from him, murdering him, commiting adultery against him, coveting his possession, lying to him, and gives all the glory to God for our ability to do. Therefore, love fulfills all of the commandments. This again takes about as much work as thanking someone for rescuing us from a burning fire. If you don't understand this, Guibox, then then there is nothing I can do for you.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

You completely missed my point. You keep saying that since Jesus called us sheep and sheep know their shepherd's voice, that we will never be lost. However, we are not sheep - we can reason. So yes, we do hear his voice, but the choice is still up to us to keep on following. Sheep don't know any better, we do.

What does the bible say about this? Are you arguing with Jesus now? I'm only saying what he said. "The sheep hear my voice and they follow me" What part of that are you arguing with? It seems pretty straight forward to me. Can't you see? When we were the 'old man' we had NO CHOICE but to follow sin. YOu can only do what your nature allows. So yes we have free will, but our free will is limited to our nature. So a fish, although it has free will, cannot fly. A bird, although he has free will, cannot swim. So a sheep, although he has free will, cannot be a goat

Do you really think that God gives us the choice of whether we sin or not, that is, to choose between what is right and what is wrong, as Christians, but once we choose to follow Christ (right choice) we lose all ability to choose whether or not we will continue to follow him (wrong choice)? How is that consistent?

It's very consistent because our free will is limited to our nature. Our God given nature is to not sin. Our God given nature is to desire the things of God. So when we act against our nature...our very being screams out, knowing that it's wrong to continue. The HOly Spirit convicts. Do you know what conviction feels like?

 

[von]

cj- I would like to know to which of the ten virgins did Jesus say, I never knew you? The 5 overcomers or the 5 believers? On down in the chapter where He spoke of the servants to whom He gave talents, verse 30 of Matt. 25 He says cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. How about farther down in the chapter, verse 37, Then shall the RIGHTEOUS answer him.....verse 41 verse 46. Depart from me ye cursed, into everlasting fire.

Explain that away. What do you, Merry and Heidi, say about that? See Jesus is not a liar. Jesus spoke these very words His own self so if you are going to live by the Bible you might want to take the whole Bible into consideration otherwise you can not tell others they are making up false doctrines. According to this scripture OSAS would be that false doctrine.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Hey Von, be careful there huh? Ok. I've come from the old 'saved one minute not the next' crowd ok - and I've come a long way to get where I am today and I only have God to thank. I would never ever knowing spread a doctrine that is false.

As for the 10 virgins? He said "Sorry I never knew you" he didn't say "I knew you once but now I don't know you anymore" You might like to think about that ;)

 

[Free]

What does the bible say about this? Are you arguing with Jesus now? I'm only saying what he said. "The sheep hear my voice and they follow me" What part of that are you arguing with? It seems pretty straight forward to me. Can't you see? When we were the 'old man' we had NO CHOICE but to follow sin.

It seems straight forward, if you ignore the obvious. If we did indeed always follow Jesus, then we would never sin, but the fact that we do sin proves that we don't always follow his voice.

It's very consistent because our free will is limited to our nature. Our God given nature is to not sin. Our God given nature is to desire the things of God. So when we act against our nature...our very being screams out, knowing that it's wrong to continue.

No, it still is very inconsistent. You are on the one hand admitting that we have the ability to choose whether or not we sin, yet on the other hand you think that our "God given nature" will not allow us to choose to no longer follow Christ.

Your argument seems to be based on a naive understanding of the powerful destructiveness and seductiveness of sin.

 

[Free]

I've come from the old 'saved one minute not the next' crowd ok

This is either a straw man or shows that you don't really understand what is being said in this discussion as that is far from the position being presented.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

What does the bible say about this? Are you arguing with Jesus now? I'm only saying what he said. "The sheep hear my voice and they follow me" What part of that are you arguing with? It seems pretty straight forward to me. Can't you see? When we were the 'old man' we had NO CHOICE but to follow sin.

It seems straight forward, if you ignore the obvious. If we did indeed always follow Jesus, then we would never sin, but the fact that we do sin proves that we don't always follow his voice.

But what do shepherd's do who tend to wander a little huh? Is he not the good shepherd? Are we more powerful than the shepherd?

It's very consistent because our free will is limited to our nature. Our God given nature is to not sin. Our God given nature is to desire the things of God. So when we act against our nature...our very being screams out, knowing that it's wrong to continue.

No, it still is very inconsistent. You are on the one hand admitting that we have the ability to choose whether or not we sin, yet on the other hand you think that our "God given nature" will not allow us to choose to no longer follow Christ.

But we cannot continue on in sin because it goes against our nature.

Your argument seems to be based on a naive understanding of the powerful destructiveness and seductiveness of sin.

Wow! And yours is based on the false assertion that you are somehow more powerful that God :o

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I've come from the old 'saved one minute not the next' crowd ok

This is either a straw man or shows that you don't really understand what is being said in this discussion as that is far from the position being presented.

Ok - once saved twice lost - does it really matter? Either way, it's paints us to have more power than God and I think it's false.

 

[cj]

cj- I would like to know to which of the ten virgins did Jesus say, I never knew you? The 5 overcomers or the 5 believers?

First off,.... all ten were believers, saved born-again believers.

Five of these believers were received because they had done what was necessary to endure and overcome the environment as they waited on the Bridegroom to come. Five were not received as they had not done what was necessary to endure and overcome the environment as they waited on the Bridegroom to come.

Then proper sense of Jesus' words "Truly I say to you, I do not know you." (vs. 12) carries the sense of not recognizing, not approving, as in Luke 13:25.

Also notice, that it is the wedding feast that is missed, and not the wedding.

On down in the chapter where He spoke of the servants to whom He gave talents, verse 30 of Matt. 25 He says cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Then we need to know more about what Jesus meant,....

Matthew  8 : 12, "But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Here (in this particular verse context), the "sons of the kingdom" are the saved Jews, who are the good seed (13:38) but whose faith is not strong enough to enable them to enter in through the narrow gate and walk the constricted way (7:13-14). They will miss the feast in the manifestation of the kingdom (Luke 13:24-30).

But when understood along with the following verse,

Matthew  13 : 38, "And the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;"

We can see that "sons of the kingdom" are called good seed by the Lord, and He should know what good seed are. They are seed that will eventually become the acceptable harvest.

Yet, in the verse above we see where Jesus says to cast some "sons of the kingdom" into outer darkness, or in other words, cast some "good seed" who Jesus knows will become a part of the acceptable harvest, into the outer darkness.

What does this mean? It means that some believers will require more disciplining than others, but only for a time.

Matthew 22 : 11 - 14, " But when the king came in to look at those reclining at table, he saw there a man who was not clothed with a wedding garment, and he said to him, Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, Bind his feet and hands, and cast him out into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. For many are called but few are chosen."

Note that Jesus called the man "Friend", in the sense of partner, companion, or comrade.

To be cast out into the outer darkness is not to perish; it is to be dealt with dispensationally, to be disqualified from participating in the enjoyment of the kingdom during the millennium, for not having lived by Christ an overcoming life. In the millennium the overcoming believers will be with Christ in the bright glory of the kingdom (Col. 3:4), whereas the defeated believers will suffer discipline in outer darkness (see note 122 in ch. 8).

How about farther down in the chapter, verse 37, Then shall the RIGHTEOUS answer him.....verse 41 verse 46. Depart from me ye cursed, into everlasting fire.

The key here is found in the phrase "stumbling block",...

1 Corinthians 8 : 9, "But beware lest somehow this right of yours become a stumbling block to the weak ones."

By "stumbling block" Jesus means brothers who cause their brothers to stumble in their walk. But all are brothers in the Lord.

The "righteous" are those believers who have not stumbled other believers. They are the overcomers from out of the church, at that point in time. Eventually though, all believers will be at the same place/level in the Lord.

The pearl in verse 46 is to be understood as follows,....

The pearl, produced in the death waters (in scripture water is used as a symbol od a death environment, hence, the oyster is in the world filled with death) by the living oyster (the living Christ), wounded by a little rock (the sinner), and secreting its life-juice around the wounding rock (the believer  see Rev. 21), is material for the building of the New Jerusalem. Since the pearl comes out of the sea, which signifies the world corrupted by Satan (Isa. 57:20; Rev. 17:15), it must refer to the church, which is constituted mainly of regenerated believers from the Gentile world and which is of great value.

The Merchant in verse 45 is Christ, who sold/gave everything for this "pearl" of great value (the church).

Explain that away. What do you, Merry and Heidi, say about that? See Jesus is not a liar. Jesus spoke these very words His own self so if you are going to live by the Bible you might want to take the whole Bible into consideration otherwise you can not tell others they are making up false doctrines. According to this scripture OSAS would be that false doctrine.

Explaining it is not hard if you have the proper scriptural sense of what is being said.



In love,
cj

 

[von]

Merry- you would never spread a false doctrine? Why is it when we speak we are told to "be careful" but when you and heidi speak and say that those of us who do not believe OSAS are spreading a false doctrine nothing is said. You are right so you can speak what you want and we are wrong so we have to watch what we say? Get real.
Your concept of the Bible makes no sense to me. How about the rest of the chapter and how about these verses. Matt. 24:12, Luke 9:62, Gal.1;6 Gal 4:9, Heb 10:38, 2Peter 2:20. I think they speak for themselves.
So, I see that you and Heidi believe that you have NO sin in your life, huh? Apparently, because you have claimed that you are a sheep and it is not in your nature to sin, so therefore you are perfect? Don't forget the sheep that go to the slaughter.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Again, as I have said many, many times on this forum, the law now exists to convict us of sin, period. You yourself have even said that. Do you not believe your own words?

I have also agreed with Paul many, many times on this forum that "love is the fulfillment of the law." Once we receive forgiveness from God we can now forgive others which keeps us from stealing from him, murdering him, commiting adultery against him, coveting his possession, lying to him, and gives all the glory to God for our ability to do. Therefore, love fulfills all of the commandments. This again takes about as much work as thanking someone for rescuing us from a burning fire.

But the above commands are not the ones we are really referring to here, are they Heidi? One doesn't need to be a professed Christian to adhere to those above commands you mentioned. And, nonchristians don't even need to give glory to God for their ability to do so. They simply keep those moral commandments as easily as you said.

My question to you, Heidi, would be ...how do you show your love to God? The nonchristian can easily adhere to the 'love thy neighbor' commands, but they sure don't adhere to the 'love thy God' ones. So, what makes you any different from many a nonchristian?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Merry- you would never spread a false doctrine? Why is it when we speak we are told to "be careful" but when you and heidi speak and say that those of us who do not believe OSAS are spreading a false doctrine nothing is said.

Please show me where *I* have accused you of spreading a false doctrine?

You are right so you can speak what you want and we are wrong so we have to watch what we say? Get real.

I have never accused you of spreading a false doctrine.

Your concept of the Bible makes no sense to me. How about the rest of the chapter and how about these verses. Matt. 24:12, Luke 9:62, Gal.1;6 Gal 4:9, Heb 10:38, 2Peter 2:20. I think they speak for themselves.

As I said before, the warnings in the bible etc is a way in which the Lord keeps us. What kind of parent wouldn't warn their children of dangers?

So, I see that you and Heidi believe that you have NO sin in your life, huh?

Well I can't speak for Heidi, but I have NEVER said anything of the kind.

Apparently, because you have claimed that you are a sheep and it is not in your nature to sin, so therefore you are perfect? Don't forget the sheep that go to the slaughter.

My flesh is yet to be glorified so no it's not perfect. But my spirit is righteous in Jesus and is sealed by the HOly Ghost UNTIL THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. My Shepherd will not allow me to go to slaughter - he is the good shepherd.

 

[Heidi]

Merry- you would never spread a false doctrine? Why is it when we speak we are told to "be careful" but when you and heidi speak and say that those of us who do not believe OSAS are spreading a false doctrine nothing is said. You are right so you can speak what you want and we are wrong so we have to watch what we say? Get real.
Your concept of the Bible makes no sense to me. How about the rest of the chapter and how about these verses. Matt. 24:12, Luke 9:62, Gal.1;6 Gal 4:9, Heb 10:38, 2Peter 2:20. I think they speak for themselves.
So, I see that you and Heidi believe that you have NO sin in your life, huh? Apparently, because you have claimed that you are a sheep and it is not in your nature to sin, so therefore you are perfect? Don't forget the sheep that go to the slaughter.

Of course we still sin! We never said we don't sin. What we are saying is that just because we still sin doesn't mean we will lose our salvation.

And as far as interpretation is concerned, you think your interpretation is correct, do you not? Or do you keep your interpretations because you think they're wrong? :o So since you do not change your interpretations then you do the very thing you accuse us of doing. ;-)