Works save? Rubbish

[SputnikBoy]

Von,

The way we know what is a true interpretation and what is a false one is if our interpretation does not contradict any scripture. The "Do this and do that" is elaborated upon by Christ when he said; "With man this is impossible but with God all things are possible." That means instead of trying to "do this and do that" like the Pharisees and the Jews try to do, we now come to Christ because he fulfilled the law for us! if he did not, then what did he die for? it would be meaningless because we would still have to do this and do that just like the Jews still do. Then as Paul said in Galations 2, Christ would have died for nothing!

but jesus has become our permanent sacrifice once and for all. The law now, as paul said in Romans 3:20, "through the law we become comscious of sin." The law tells us what right and wrong are so that we will know when we break it. Then, instead of being slaves to the law like th Jews still do, we simply ask for forgiveness for our transgressions. It is finished." Christ already paid the penalty for our sins which breeds incredible thankfulness, love, and joy in our hearts that enables us to keep the law! That's why paul said that love is the fulfillment of the law.

Sounds like all blow and no go, Heidi.

 

[Free]

The way we know what is a true interpretation and what is a false one is if our interpretation does not contradict any scripture.

We've been through this before - your argument is fundamentally flawed. What you are saying is that if anyone disagrees with your interpretation of Scripture, they're wrong.

God puts his desires in his sheep. Sheep will aways want to be sheep because they are sheep - they are not goats. Jesus doesn't lie!

Please keep in mind that Jesus only used sheep as an analogy. We are not literally sheep.

 

[cj]

The fundamental error comitted by many believers is one of speaking from a point of short understanding.

A man, having once believed that Jesus is Lord, is eternally saved.

This is what the bible says.



But this is not th end of the process, rather it is just the beginning.


God had a desire in eternity past, and this desire is that He be expressed in and through His creation. Even more, He created a being called man as the center of all His creation; nd at the center of man He placed a spirit.

This spirit of a man is the point of contact between man and God, the stairway that Jacob saw in His dream. And it was God's intention that man live from his spirit, that his soul (mind, emotion, will) be ruled over by the man's spirit. In reality, a man's mind, emotion, and will are simply organs to express what is in the spirit of a man.

When man fell he lost contact with his spirit, and as a result his spirit became deadened to the rest of the tripartite man.

Man actually fell four times,.... from his spirit to his conscience,.... from his conscience to his mind,.... and from his mind to his flesh. At which point God brought in the flood. After which He initiated a new way for men, a way of faith. And so God called out a nation for Himself, and produced this nation through a man called Abraham.

Yet Abraham also failed, as did those who came from him. Why? Because although they had some faith, this faith still required God's appearing in order that their faith be strengthened. Man was unable to sustain himself in his faith. And God's law proved this.

But God knew this and had already put in place a plan that would forever deal with this problem of man's weakness; God's plan was and is a Person, and this Person living in the renewed (as in brand new, and not the old recovered) spirit of men.

But God still had every intention to accomplish His desire of Himself expressed in men.

Additionally, God had another problem to solve, that of His adversary. And God's solution to this problem is accomplished in and through saved men.

But how?

By God accomplishing His desired intention of having His expression in and through men,...... while they live out there natural life on this earth.

God has saved every person who believes by giving each believer a new spirit in which God Himself dwells, but not every person who believes will express God in their lifetime; some will require some more "training" in the time to come.

And why not?

Because not every believer is willing to forsake the things of this world in order to serve God.

The typology of this is found in the Israelites who were in captivity in Babylon. A call went out to all the Israelites to return and rebuild the wall and city of Jerusalem, but only a very small remnant answered the call.

All were Israelites, all were God's people and remained God's people. But only a few responded to God's need on the earth and abandoned whatever they had gained for themselves during their captivity in Babylon to go to Jerusalem.

The same is true today, and has been since the time of the apostles. Many were saved in the local churches, but few went on with the Lord in His need.

And what is it to go on with the Lord in His need?

It is to forsake the way of the world, which is to say, the dependence on our old ways, leading with the mind and being tempted in the flesh, and be given to our spirit where God dwells.

To forsake the way of the world is to turn to your regenerated spirit, giving the Spirit in your spirit the lead in all things.

This is how the kingdom of God is expressed on the earth today, and this is how the church is built. For as the give the lead to the Spirit in our spirit, it requires that we submit our soul-life, our mind, emotion, and will, to the Spirit in our spirit. And as we do this, willingly do this, the life that is within our regenerated spirit flows into our soul and renews it with the very life of God. This is when transformation and conformation takes place, and this requires our cooperation, it requires our "work", and is a part of the entire process of salvation.

But it is not necessary for God to gain this perfection in all of us as we live, for He has already put in place what is required for Him to get this in us in the time to come.

What is necessary is that God gain this perfection in a remnat of believers, those who our Lord referred to as those who "overcome".

The Lord told us in His epistles to the seven churches that from within these local expressions of the one body there would come forth overcomers, those believers who lost (not in death but in will) their life while still living on this earth.


And this is where the error is made,...... yes all who believe are eternally saved,..... but no not all who believe will produce what "work" is required to overcome in this life. And thus some will suffer further discipline while a few will gain the reward.


And don't be fooled, what religions teach about "good" works is not the work we're speaking of here. The work we're speaking of is the building of the body of Christ, this is the only work of God. And the only part we play is in making a wilfull choice to turn to our spirit so that God can carry out His building work.

Jesus declared,........ I.... will build my church.

Not anyone else, only Jesus will build His church. But He needs the cooperation of men to present ourselves to Him for the purpose of this building. And this alone is our "work".



In love,
cj

 

[Relic]

.

cj, I am always awestruck by your insight, and my heart, my spirit, is deeply touched by the profundity of ALL the God given wisdom you share within this board. Everything! in that message is so very enlightening! It brought to light things I have not seen before. The individual aspects of man falling 4 times and then the flood. I hadn't comprehended it that way. Thank you so very much for your gracious giving and sharing. That whole message is just full of richness! Tid-Bits from heaven! Every sentence was consummed in amazement. Food for the soul!

And don't be fooled, what religions teach about "good" works is not the work we're speaking of here. The work we're speaking of is the building of the body of Christ, this is the only work of God. And the only part we play is in making a wilfull choice to turn to our spirit so that God can carry out His building work.

Jesus declared,........ I.... will build my church.

Not anyone else, only Jesus will build His church. But He needs the cooperation of men to present ourselves to Him for the purpose of this building. And this alone is our "work".

Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.




.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

In all actuality, CJ, the way that you expressed that is not too dissimilar from the Orthodox understanding of what our 'works' accomplish.
No man can add to or subtract from the perfect sacrifice of Christ. When He became sin for us, He saved us with an eternal salvation.

And again, in the falling, it was indeed more than one fall. Man became altogether corrupt in that every aspect of him became corrupt. I say altogther corrupt, not utterly, for Romans 1 speaks of the utterly corrupt man. Our works then are part of the process of our transformation of what might be called mind and body, ie the whole man into or toward the image of Christ- which is really not about us, per se, but about the building up of the Body together in love, as Paul puts it.

I know of no Christian tradition that teaches that we can undo His work that was finished on Calvary but in Him before the foundation of the world. I know of some who seem to indicate it is our faith that saves us, but it is His faith that saved us.

Our works are a co-operation with Him, us working with Him, or rather, Him working through us- for what man can do anything apart from Him?


Now I have a question for you, based upon this statement:

but no not all who believe will produce what "work" is required to overcome in this life. And thus some will suffer further discipline while a few will gain the reward.

It seems as if you have situated this reward/punishment scenario in the age to come. Are you suggesting that there will be punishment after death for those who ultimately are, to put it crudely, heavenbound?
Please elaborate.
James

 

[Heidi]

Heidi,

Wouldn't the responses be interesting to read if we could get all of the Christians who have been martyred since Jesus Christ died on the cross, to each post a reply here to the subject of this thread?

In Christ,

farley

What would be more beneficial is if people believed all of the bible. The bible is the word of God, not people. ;-)

 

[cj]

In all actuality, CJ, the way that you expressed that is not too dissimilar from the Orthodox understanding of what our 'works' accomplish.

I keep telling you OC, I believe that I am more othodox in my belief than the Orthodox. I just don't capitalize the first letter of the word.


OC, I know what you have in you. I know you left what you came to see as corrupt, in search of what you knew must exist in a pure form.

I know this.

But I also know that this pure form is simply a Person who's name is Jesus, not Orthodox.

Now I have a question for you, based upon this statement:

cj said, ".... but no not all who believe will produce what "work" is required to overcome in this life. And thus some will suffer further discipline while a few will gain the reward."

It seems as if you have situated this reward/punishment scenario in the age to come. Are you suggesting that there will be punishment after death for those who ultimately are, to put it crudely, heavenbound?
Please elaborate.

I think losing anything is equivalent to punishment, and the scriptures are clear that there are rewards to possess, over and above our salvation.

Paul speaks of this matter in 2nd Timothy 4:7-8,....... Paul, he who declared that he was a servant of God, declared,..... "I have.... fought the good fight;.... I have.... finished the course;.... I have.... kept the faith..... Henceforth..... there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, with which the Lord, the righteous Judge,.... will recompense me in that day,.... and not only me but also all those who have loved His appearing."

The first thing we need to notice is the connection that Paul makes between "fighting the good fight/finishing the course/keeping the faith/gaining the reward" and..... that all who have "loved His appearing" will be recompensed in the same way.

This clearly tells us that to love the Lord's "appearing" (and thus express this love in our living and being) is the same as fighting the good fight, finishing the course, keeping the faith, and gaining the reward.

How many believers have a clear view of what it is to love the Lord's appearing?

But back to the main subject,....

I believe that the scriptures tell us that these rewards, one of which Paul spoke in the verse above, are received at the Lord's return (as Paul said).

Additionally, I believe that scriptures tell us that these rewards are associated with the manifestation of the Lord's kingdom and His thousand year reign over the old creation.

These verses from Hebrews tells us a lot to this end,...

Hebrews 10 : 32-39,

"But call to mind the former days, in which, having been enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings; On one hand, being made a spectacle both in reproaches and in afflictions, and on the other, having become partakers with those who are treated the same.

For you both sympathized with those in bonds and accepted with joy the plundering of your possessions, knowing that you yourselves have a better possession and one that abides.

Do not cast away therefore... your boldness, which has great reward....... For you have need of endurance in order that, having done the will of God, you may obtain..... the promise.

"For in yet a very little while the Coming One will come and will not delay. But My righteous one shall live by faith; and if he shrinks back, My soul does not delight in him.''

But we are not of those who shrink back to ruin but of them who have faith to the gaining....... of the soul."

And what is this promise? It is the true Sabbath rest; and this Sabbath rest is realized in..... the gaining of our soul.

Not our spirit, which is renewed/regenerated/gained by God at the moment of rebirth, but the gaining of our soul (mind, emotion, will), which is through the process of transformation and conformation.

Think of it, if someone gave us rest in our mind, emotion, and will, would this not be a good thing? Sure would. Well, this is what the work is, presenting ourselves in such a way that God in Christ, who is our Sabbath rest, can flow as this rest from our regenerated spirit where He dwells into our mind, emotion, and will (our soul), that our soul might gain this rest by becoming constituted with Christ.

In a sense, Christ expands Himself from our regenerated spirit into our soul,.... and this expansion of Christ is in reality the building of God's church,... which is in reality, in life and nature but not in His Godhead, the actual expansion of God Himself into His creation. Which is the desire God had in eternity past, and accomplishes in Christ in and through believers.

Believers are the expansion of God (in life and nature) in His creation.

This is how wonderful it is to be a saved believer.

But back to your question OC,....

The verses above tells us that endurance brings us the reward, but endurance of what?

Of the sufferings we encounter in our life.

And from the following verse we can know what suffering is for in God's view,...

Hebrews 5:8, "Even though He was a Son, learned obedience from the things which He suffered."

So suffering can teach us obedience. But what is this obedience for?

Obedience is unto faith; and this faith built up now, in this life, is unto our enduring the struggles of this life.


Yet, whether we are built up in faith now, or at a later point, the principle remains the same, this faith is built up through obedience, which itself is only learnt through suffering.

Therefore, at some stage of the process, all believers must go through some suffering (which in a nutshell is the denial of the self), whether in life or in death.

Additionally, all will enter into the new creation new. This leaves us with only the age of the Lord's earthly thousand year reign in which those who were not perfected in their life on the earth can be perfected.

Also, this need for further "work" is only revealed at the judgement seat of Christ, which takes place at His return. Therefore, this supports the view of the "further "work" being carried out during the thousand year reign.

When tied in with the overcomers reward being connected to the Lord's appearance, we have even stronger proof that all that we are speaking of, the reward and the further "work", will take place during this thousand year reign of Christ.


I hope I've been clear and given a reasonable answer to your question.


In love,
cj

 

[Heidi]

The way we know what is a true interpretation and what is a false one is if our interpretation does not contradict any scripture.

We've been through this before - your argument is fundamentally flawed. What you are saying is that if anyone disagrees with your interpretation of Scripture, they're wrong.

God puts his desires in his sheep. Sheep will aways want to be sheep because they are sheep - they are not goats. Jesus doesn't lie!

Please keep in mind that Jesus only used sheep as an analogy. We are not literally sheep.

I meant exactly what I said. If our interpretation doesn't contradict any other scripture then it is a true one. And my interretations do not contradict any scripture. I find an interpretation that reconciles all scripture. And others who do the same thing will also have a correct "interpretation." That's why Paul tells us how to distinguish false apostles because they pass along a different gospel than he preached. So again, any interpretation that contradicts any part of the bible is a false one.

Most people know that people are not literal sheep so few will interpret that passage literally. But there might be some who might. They then should consult a dictionary before they read the bible. Then after they've looked up basic word definitons will the be ready to start reading the bible and not until.

Jesus uses the word "sheep" for a reason; they are among the dumbest animals that walk the earth. They will follow their leader. If they are ruled by the devil, they will follow him. If they are ruled by the Holy Spirit, they will follow him. And that is why Jesus said, "No one can snatch them out of my hand".

 

[cj]

.

cj,.............. Thank you so very much for your gracious giving and sharing. That whole message is just full of richness! Tid-Bits from heaven! Every sentence was consummed in amazement. Food for the soul!

Food for the soul is what the fruit of the tree of life was.

The principle of eating is a pillar principle in God's economy towards men; men eat and become constituted with the essence of what they have eaten.

The fact is, a man becomes the expression of what He has eaten; physically and spiritually.

This is why the Lord represented Himself as the bread of life and the living water, that we might eat and drink of Him and gain eternal life.

Yet eating is a constant thing, and thus even in the spirit realm we need to constantly eat. And we do this by turning to our spirit and as we do so, spontaneously eat and drink Christ. And in doing this we become constituted with His very Person in the organs of our soul; and even one day in our very bodies, for the time will come when our bodies are also transformed.

The day that our bodies are glorified is the day that the Christ in us flows into and thus constitutes our bodies with His very essesence and being.

And you know when this will happen?

At His appearing.

This will be the meeting of the inward Christ with the coming outward Christ.

Who wants to be a part of this glorious meeting? For how much one love this moment will be reflected in well one runs and finishes his course.


The very first day I started to read the bible I became amazed at how intricately woven are all the thoughts that are to be found in its words. And this has never stopped; I continue to remain in awe, as He reveals new depth after new depth of this wonderful woven word.

Sometimes, but not that often, I feel that even as I speak these words that there is no seperation between myself and them. Its as if my voice, really my being, was created just to speak them.

Yet, its only for a moment, and then I fail again.


Allow me to be clear on something though,......

These words that I speak are not mine. These words are from others, men who have fought the good fight, run their course, finished their race, and handed down the truths that they came to know.

I am a very fortunate believer to be the recipient of all the work of the saints over the years. As we all are.

All these "tid-bits from heaven" have come to us at a price; and still, there are those men who continue to pay the price necessary for the relaesing of these truths to the greater body today. These are God's present apostles. Of which I am not one. I am just a beneficiary of their work.

And yet, I sense that their work, their ministry, their speaking, is also mine. For its all just Christ. And Christ is mine and I am His.

So I guess what I am saying is don't look at me to much (or at all), for there are those who are far better equipped than I am. I don't refer to them by name becase I've made a personal decision not to seem to promote any person or persons. But if you want to know more just PM me as others have done and I will try to point you in their direction. But your on your own regarding eating the hay and leaving the sticks.

Amen. Lord cover me.

Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.

And you bringing this scripture to our attention declares to us how light bring more light, as I never thought of connecting this OT verse to what I was saying; but you are absolutely right, it speaks perfectly to our present situation as saved ones.

Now that we are saved we must draw near, just as David, a Jew and therefore of God's people, still needed to draw near to God.


What relationship does not require the work of the parties involved; Yet, first there needs to be a sure involvement before there can be a sure work.


In love,
cj

 

[von]

Well then, Heidi, how can you believe what you do because it truly contradicts scripture.

You can say people were or are not truly saved all you want but that is absolutely untrue. So, in other words you don't really know that you are even saved at all until you get to heaven because if somewhere in your life you turn away, then you weren't sincere in the beginning. You mean God leaves you at the altar. How can you say that people didn't sincerely accept Christ. How can you stand in judgment of them? I know one thing you will never convince me that I never truly accepted Christ. I know what took place between me and God that day and I also know what caused me to walk away, on my own free will. Thank God that He is forgiving and accepts us back.

Merry- you keep talking in circles about sheep. Sheep would want to remain sheep and not become goats? We were goats in the first place, so why would a goat want to become a sheep? This is not a very good analogy.

 

[Free]

I meant exactly what I said. If our interpretation doesn't contradict any other scripture then it is a true one. And my interretations do not contradict any scripture. I find an interpretation that reconciles all scripture. And others who do the same thing will also have a correct "interpretation." That's why Paul tells us how to distinguish false apostles because they pass along a different gospel than he preached. So again, any interpretation that contradicts any part of the bible is a false one.

I know you meant what you said and that is why I meant what I said. As I stated, you are saying that any interpretation which doesn't agree with your's (because your's supposedly doesn't contradict the Bible) isn't right. As you can see, people disagree with you fairly often and if you aren't willing to admit that you may be wrong on some things...then watch out.

If all your interpretations truly do not contradict other scriptures on all matters of faith, then you should write a book since you would be the first one to ever have accomplished a total harmony of biblical doctrines and you would be the greatest theologian in the history of the Church.

Can you see how your reasoning is very much lacking in your argument?

 

[guibox]

You can say people were or are not truly saved all you want but that is absolutely untrue. So, in other words you don't really know that you are even saved at all until you get to heaven because if somewhere in your life you turn away, then you weren't sincere in the beginning. You mean God leaves you at the altar. How can you say that people didn't sincerely accept Christ. How can you stand in judgment of them?

Yes, the fallacy that Heidi and the rest of the OSAS people cannot properly or logically address. The other side of the coin is that those people who at this time do not know Christ must be 'called' and 'predestined' by God to accept Him.

That means those people we know that died and didn't accept God were predestined to not be saved by God Himself.

You may disagree with this Heidi, but this is where your argument is going.

IF I cannot choose to lose my salvation because God has called me to be saved, then those that never accept Christianity are NOT called to be saved.

And Collier brought up the fine example of the 10 virgins....apparently no one wants to address this...

 

[von]

Well, I have to go to 2 Peter. 3:9, which states that the Lord is not slack concerning His promise....He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

So, in other words Heidi, if you believe what guibox has stated then really it does you no good to teach your doctrine since we are not going to be saved anyways. You talk about people who doubt their salvation but isn't that the teaching you are promoting here? You are trying to tell people who have excepted the Lord that if they don't believe OSAS they aren't saved?

 

[Vic C.]

That means those people we know that died and didn't accept God were predestined to not be saved by God Himself.

Wouldn't this be predetermination and not predestination?

 

[guibox]

Well, I have to go to 2 Peter. 3:9, which states that the Lord is not slack concerning His promise....He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Interesting that it says "that ALL SHOULD come to repentance". That means that if Christ 'calls' us, or predetermines us to be His sheep, then EVERYONE including the wicked are being called. This does away with the 'automatic' aspect of the OSAS argument if you fall away you were never truly 'called' to be part of Christ's 'flock' to begin with.

Hence, freedom of choice is the deciding factor. If we can choose to become part of God's flock, we can choose to NOT be part of God's flock.

Being 'drawn', 'called' and 'predetermined' is not the same as choosing to be part of God's family, for ALL are called because God wishes that ALL should come to repentance and that not ALL shoudl perish but have everlasting life.

Hence, freedom of choice is the factor as it always has been.

This is why God didn't destroy Lucifer, this is why He has let the world go on despite sinful human beings. FREEDOM OF CHOICE

And yet we are to believe that God removes this freedom of choice when we choose to become part of His flock?

Seems that we become the automatons that God avoided to begin with when He created us.

Are we really going off topic here, or what?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

God puts his desires in his sheep. Sheep will aways want to be sheep because they are sheep - they are not goats. Jesus doesn't lie!

Please keep in mind that Jesus only used sheep as an analogy. We are not literally sheep.

Well Duh!!! :o

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Merry- you keep talking in circles about sheep. Sheep would want to remain sheep and not become goats? We were goats in the first place, so why would a goat want to become a sheep? This is not a very good analogy.

First of all, Jesus used the analogy, so yes, it is a good one. And second of all, the Holy Ghost regeneration supernatually changes you from the 'old man' (goats) in all his corruption and desires for the things of evil...to a new creation (sheep) in Christ, complete with a whole new nature and desire for the things of God. Goats don't ever want to be sheep and sheep don't want to be goats.

Now to say that sheep would WANT to become a goat again undermines the 'new nature' in Jesus. Not only does our new nature NOT want to be a goat again but we also CAN'T become a goat because God would have to change us back - or 'unborn' us. Can you see any scripture in the bible at all where it states that God is into 'unborning' people or changing people back to their old natures?

The bible clearly states that no man can pluck them out of my father's hand. To say otherwise is to give man more power over Jesus.

Also there is the scripture that says...

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[itoldyounoalready]

Wait, isn't it true you have been saved by faith, but faith is useless without good works ,and good works are useless without faith,you need both .Right? :eggface:

 

[cj]

Yes, the fallacy that Heidi and the rest of the OSAS people cannot properly or logically address.

The only fallacy is your above statement.

The matter of a believer being unable to lose the gift of salvation has been scripturally explained.

Whether or not you chose to agree is your problem. But don't worry, contrary to what you may believe you are in not jeopardy of losing you salvation because of this error on your part.

That means those people we know that died and didn't accept God were predestined to not be saved by God Himself.

Absolutely,... just as scripture declares.

But scripture also clearly declares that no one should make the mistake of thinking they know who God has saved. No matter what the outward may look like.

See guibox, neither you nor I can be quite sure that the eyes we are using are without some form of veil.

Just believe that God has saved everyone and then let Him take care of the details.

And Collier brought up the fine example of the 10 virgins....apparently no one wants to address this...

Five are overcomers and the other five are believers in need of more perfecting work.

There, addressed.

In love,
cj

 

[Free]

God puts his desires in his sheep. Sheep will aways want to be sheep because they are sheep - they are not goats. Jesus doesn't lie!

Please keep in mind that Jesus only used sheep as an analogy. We are not literally sheep.

Well Duh!!! :o

You completely missed my point. You keep saying that since Jesus called us sheep and sheep know their shepherd's voice, that we will never be lost. However, we are not sheep - we can reason. So yes, we do hear his voice, but the choice is still up to us to keep on following. Sheep don't know any better, we do.

Do you really think that God gives us the choice of whether we sin or not, that is, to choose between what is right and what is wrong, as Christians, but once we choose to follow Christ (right choice) we lose all ability to choose whether or not we will continue to follow him (wrong choice)? How is that consistent?