Would Jesus Be a Democrat or a Republican?

[Hitch]

Taxation is simply not "taking money by force".

We vote to be taxed. True, everybody is "forced" to pay their taxes. But that is an unavoidable consequence of acting as a society - it is entirely unworkable to let people decide yay or nay re each possible governmental expenditure.

Go ahead show from scripture where charity is a function of government.

 

[Drew]

Well I can quote Jesus personally.

and I can quote the only portion of scripture personally written by God;

THOU SHALT NOT STEAL

Not the right argument. The only way you can make this argument is if you voted for a party that promised not to tax you at all.

Most people vote - and do so freely - for governments that will tax them. So there is no stealing going on at all.

Perhaps if you embrace anarchy and want no government at all, you can make the argument you are making.

 

[Drew]

Go ahead show from scripture where charity is a function of government.

This is not how the Bible works - it is not some master list prescribing all the "do's and don'ts" one could ever want to know.

We had the same battle in the smoking thread - one can determine on Biblical principles that smoking is sin. Likewise, we can determine that Jesus would support taxation for wealth re-distribution because we know He is Lord of all, and His principles do not only apply in our "personal lives", but in all the structures and institutions of our world.

 

[Pizzaguy]

.....but He would not command the government to care for the poor, He commanded us ALL to do that.

My response was entirely appropriate in light of what you actually posted. My argument speaks directly to your statement and I argue that we need the mechanisms of government, no matter what.

It seems that all you can see is the part of my statement BEFORE the comma.

 

[jasoncran]

Taxation is simply not "taking money by force".

We vote to be taxed. True, everybody is "forced" to pay their taxes. But that is an unavoidable consequence of acting as a society - it is entirely unworkable to let people decide yay or nay re each possible governmental expenditure.

i didnt vote for any of these taxes. i see your point on that but as citizens, honeslty we are powerless to control what those in power do. if you doubt that look at the corruption in american history and how that politicians are bought and owned. this not? look at ppl and how they control the democrats. i would like to see one honest god fearing democrat on the state level or national level.

name me one that is pro-life to the point he would rather commit political suicide then support abortion or sin.

sadly i can also say that in the republicans those are more rare and rare.

ftr i dont support what rick scott is doing totally but again once in power and those that got him in,have the power to do what they wish if they so choose. doubt it then why is scott all of suddenly paying off his buddies with privatisations of parts of the government that happen reward them. ie solantic, and others. he is under investigation for that but i'm not holding my breath

so if we are to tithe by taxes then why do we have a church?
is obama the american pastor? or the mayors of our home town?

sorry. the govts here are sorry on really helping people at times. think about it would you tithe to the sinner so he can sin without any questions asked? meaning having all the women he wants, abortions galore and what not?

 

[Hitch]

Not the right argument. The only way you can make this argument is if you voted for a party that promised not to tax you at all.

Most people vote - and do so freely - for governments that will tax them. So there is no stealing going on at all.

Perhaps if you embrace anarchy and want no government at all, you can make the argument you are making.

LOL Whats the matter Drew? Cant you make your case? No one is talking about anarchy but you and you're only do that as a place to hide.

Come on drew your certain remember? Show me from scripture where Jesus make charity a function of government?

Or just keep trying to change the subject. LOL

 

[Pizzaguy]

So I am sure Jesus would "vote" for making abortion a crime. And He would also do what every compassionate and obedient Christian would do - vote to have money channelled from the rich to the poor.

I personally would never assume I can speak for the Lord like that.
Ya got guts Drew, not much sense, but ya got guts.

If Jesus could snap His fingers and everyone would have enough money, fine.

It would be a fun thread to debate, discuss and argue if He'd actually do that.

Obviously, that simply would not work - so we agree at the ballot to be taxed and expect the government to use the money in the ways they promised to.

Um, if Christ were here running things - I'd think differently. But the gov't DOES NOT use the money in the ways they promised, do they? And even when they "try" to, they screw it up. We have a system of welfare/medicare/etc. that consumes a VAST percentage of the money in administrative costs.

I could give several percent of my income to my church and it would go farther in helping the poor. But we don't do that, we've become a nation that depends on gov't - all thanks to liberal democrats that now tax us to death in the name of helping the poor and "providing essential services".

And giving such money to the poor is one such use which the obedient and serious Christian would support.

Yes, we all would. But again, that is not what is going on. I don't "give" money to the IRS and I have NO SAY in how it is spent. They just gave away billions to the banks, an unknown amount to "artists" who could not sell their filth in the public sector, they have built bridges to no where, they have given money away to provide abortions to people who COULD have had themselves sterilized for $300 (I know cause I got one of those operations - but then, I'm not a freeloader).

You think you know it all Drew, but at your age you simply don't.

 

[jasoncran]

well for the record a govt is needed but somethings the govt shouldnt be involved in, and the church is one of them. yes the church should influence morals but unless drew suggest making islam, jews and hindus and sinners unable to vote on their consciences then why would a christian want to tithe to the govt via taxes.

when its much better that the christian can freely tell the lost when he or she GIVES the poor that they need a savior. in america as this has been attempted and killed by the left and obama himself.. the church cant preach nor teach when they help the poor. so whats the point then?

sure the church cant do it all? but it would do some much more if the wealthy VOLUNTARILY gave to the poor, and also if those that could DID give.

God wants a cheerful giver, drew i seriously doubt you go oh another tax and time for me tithe and smile as you do it.

no you have already stated earlier that a tax is forced as one goes to jail for not paying taxes.

how can that fulfiill the idea of God loves a cheerful giver?i'm not one of those that wants anarchy but.. lets let the church do what it called to do.

is the church the govt of the people that mandates laws directly or a place for the lost to repent?

 

[Christ_empowered]

I line up with the Catholics politically (part of the reason I'm still considering converting...), so I have to say I think progressive policies line up nicely with Scripture.

Bu then again, I seem to recall reading something (I think by C.S. Lewis) in which the writer said that no politico would be pleased with a truly Christian society. The poor would be taken care of, awesome--but those who did not work (despite being able and given the opportunity) would not eat. Women would be respected, but their roles would be complementary, not exactly the same and "equal" as many feminists envision equality.

Anyway, I say vote democrat. As a voter, if I had to choose between voting for a "social conservative" who's just exploiting divisive issues to push through a pro-wealthy agenda OR going for someone who's making reasonable suggestions to improve the quality of life for the masses, I'd go for the second one, even if that meant abortion on demand and gay marriage in all 50 states.

 

[Hitch]

If charity is a proper function of government shouldnt the preaching of the Gospel also be entrusted to the same?

 

[Theofilus]

Go ahead show from scripture where charity is a function of government.

Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was stricken dumb for a while, and his thoughts troubled him. The king answered and said, Belteshazzar, let not the dream, or the interpretation, trouble thee. Belteshazzar answered and said, My lord, the dream be to them that hate thee, and the interpretation thereof to thine adversaries.

The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth; whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was food for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the birds of the heavens had their habitation: it is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong; for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.

And whereas the king saw a watcher and a holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew down the tree, and destroy it; nevertheless leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field, and let it be wet with the dew of heaven: and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him; this is the interpretation, O king, and it is the decree of the Most High, which is come upon my lord the king: that thou shalt be driven from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and thou shalt be made to eat grass as oxen, and shalt be wet with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee; till thou know that the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the roots of the tree; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.

Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by showing mercy to the poor; if there may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.

All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar. (Dan. 4:19-28 ASV)​

 

[Hitch]

Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was stricken dumb for a while, and his thoughts troubled him. The king answered and said, Belteshazzar, let not the dream, or the interpretation, trouble thee. Belteshazzar answered and said, My lord, the dream be to them that hate thee, and the interpretation thereof to thine adversaries.

The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth; whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was food for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the birds of the heavens had their habitation: it is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong; for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.

And whereas the king saw a watcher and a holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew down the tree, and destroy it; nevertheless leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field, and let it be wet with the dew of heaven: and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him; this is the interpretation, O king, and it is the decree of the Most High, which is come upon my lord the king: that thou shalt be driven from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and thou shalt be made to eat grass as oxen, and shalt be wet with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee; till thou know that the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the roots of the tree; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.

Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by showing mercy to the poor; if there may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.

All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar. (Dan. 4:19-28 ASV)​

First off this is a personal message to 'Ol Nebbie, and he was at the time the wealthiest man the world had ever seen. We would certainly hope every government would demonstrate mercy, but is this your case for a welfare state? As in a universial health plan?* You didnt define, and I dont believe the text stipulates the specifics involved in showing mercy to the poor.

Second, since this really doesnt translate well to our era, I would add that your example is interesting in that it is not based on Israel or the Low of Moses, but a pagan empire.


* Despite Drew's silliness and its implications, there is a great deal of space between the socialist state he seems to promote and anarchy, which I believe was brought up just to cloud the issue.

 

[jasoncran]

here's one for the pro-welfare state christians..

recently i was destitute and was living with family. I was given an utilimatum. my wife wasnt collected disability and was in need of meds. i was working the same places as i do now.i was told by the govt for help of meds and foods etc, only meds because I WORKED and made too much, a whooping 34 $$$$ over the limit.

YET, who or what helped me? The Pastor at my church loaned me the money as the church didnt have the funds but did for the building. I later repaid the church. and that pastor asked me was i tithing and if i need any other prayers. ie concerned for my walk.

would the govt do that. Just so you all know, i was bi and stealing from the federal govt and at the same time i was approved by the govt for section 8 as i did work and stole on the side.of course, one could say that isnt enough, but would the govt ever look to see if i was living right? nope. as long as i didnt break any laws i was good to go. so i could fornicate. have gay sex etc all day long and they wouldnt care.

the church may give me food etc and money for rent, but i bet you all that i would be told that was sin if they found out about it.

 

[Hitch]

here's one for the pro-welfare state christians..

recently i was destitute and was living with family. I was given an utilimatum. my wife wasnt collected disability and was in need of meds. i was working the same places as i do now.i was told by the govt for help of meds and foods etc, only meds because I WORKED and made too much, a whooping 34 $$$$ over the limit.

YET, who or what helped me? The Pastor at my church loaned me the money as the church didnt have the funds but did for the building. I later repaid the church. and that pastor asked me was i tithing and if i need any other prayers. ie concerned for my walk.

would the govt do that. Just so you all know, i was bi and stealing from the federal govt and at the same time i was approved by the govt for section 8 as i did work and stole on the side.of course, one could say that isnt enough, but would the govt ever look to see if i was living right? nope. as long as i didnt break any laws i was good to go. so i could fornicate. have gay sex etc all day long and they wouldnt care.

the church may give me food etc and money for rent, but i bet you all that i would be told that was sin if they found out about it.

I've often wondered if the church in America had set her mind to claim care for the elderly as her own turf, rather than the 18th Amendment, if both the State and the Church would be stronger. I dont believed our current problems with infanticide would have materialized.

 

[jasoncran]

sadly, the church in america has ceded her duties to the secular govt and also look what we have around us.

 

[Hitch]

sadly, the church in america has ceded her duties to the secular govt and also look what we have around us.

Yup. And more of the same will prove even more destructive.

 

[jasoncran]

i have been as i stated before under these programs and i never did take the section 8 house as i got saved and moved back home.
i aslo dont want anymore "programs" that must be paid for by yours truly unless truly justifiable.

has anyone ever wondered why the schools in america are so broke yet the lotto is SUPPOSED to fund them, yet we have to raise the property tax milleage rates to the keep them doors open! we the people have no way to hold the politican to the fire for his or her back door deals as the open govt laws are bypassed and bypassed..ad infinitum. and somehow the politicians get richer.

 

[Pizzaguy]

sadly, the church in america has ceded her duties to the secular govt and also look what we have around us.

This is part of what I was getting at with my reference to "... alll of us."

 

[Lewis]

Drew Wrote
Well, the Law of Moses is no longer in force.

The Moral law of Moses is still in force

 

[Drew]

LOL Whats the matter Drew? Cant you make your case? No one is talking about anarchy but you and you're only do that as a place to hide.

Untrue, of course.

Come on drew your certain remember? Show me from scripture where Jesus make charity a function of government?

I suggest that the Biblically literate are fully aware of the fact that the Bible is not an exhaustive lists of "do's" and "don'ts".

We had the same issue in the smoking thread. When faced with a Biblical argument against smoking that was not grounded in a single text, many posters, perhaps yourself included, simply ignored that argument.

Very telling indeed.

There is no single "verse" that says that charity is the function of government.

But nevertheless, the Scriptures do strongly support this:

1. Jesus is Lord of all - and that includes the very governmental institutions through which we run our world.

2. The Kingdom of God has a clear principle - the rich should give to the poor;

3. Therefore, it is quite clear that King Jesus wants us to implement governments that apply this principle.

You would push Jesus and His values out of the realm of government with your position.

Or just keep trying to change the subject. LOL

I am, of course, doing no such thing.