Wresting or Reasoning Scripture

[Jethro Bodine]

What I highlighted is clear to me without you bending the text to meet your beliefs.
Its cohesive with the Lords words.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

We know these kinds of people exist--fake believers who the Lord does not know (Matthew 7:23).
Contrast that with believers who God knows but who do not know him (Galatians 4:9)--immature believers who have yet to have the word of God go deep into their hearts in steadfastness and perseverance. And because of that are more likely to have the word of God uprooted from their hearts in unbelief.

 

[Randy]

Are you saying the New Covenant is just for Jews?

No. But the Covenant was introduced to Israel. Those that rejected that covenant trampled on the blood of the covenant.
"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

Rather the letter was to the Hebrews and warned those who didn't shrink back not to do so.
Apparently they remained firm showing they belonged to Jesus. As was noted in Hebrews 10

Others rejected the covenant
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

It is speaking of those who rejected the covenant by continuing to sin. The very condition both Jesus and John stated NEVER knew Jesus.

 

[Randy]

We know these kinds of people exist--fake believers who the Lord does not know (Matthew 7:23).
Contrast that with believers who God knows but who do not know him (Galatians 4:9)

see reply 202.
A people who claim Christ and fall away or continue to sin. Which is a condition that shows they never belonged to Jesus. Bart Erhman is such a example. People who left Christianity to proclaim another faith is such a example. People who continue to sin yet proclaim Jesus as Lord is such a example. The false teachers as noted in the NT is such a example.

 

[Randy]

We know these kinds of people exist--fake believers who the Lord does not know (Matthew 7:23).
Contrast that with believers who God knows but who do not know him (Galatians 4:9)--immature believers who have yet to have the word of God go deep into their hearts in steadfastness and perseverance. And because of that are more likely to have the word of God uprooted from their hearts in unbelief.

Rather I would state those that continue to sin and or left the faith NEVER knew Him.

 

[JLB]

No. But the Covenant was introduced to Israel. Those that rejected that covenant trampled on the blood of the covenant.
"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

Rather the letter was to the Hebrews and warned those who didn't shrink back not to do so.
Apparently they remained firm showing they belonged to Jesus. As was noted in Hebrews 10

Others rejected the covenant
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

It is speaking of those who rejected the covenant by continuing to sin. The very condition both Jesus and John stated NEVER knew Jesus.

The context of Hebrews 10 is to those who are in covenant with Christ, sanctified believers who have departed from Christ and returned to Judaism.

This context actually begins in Hebrews 3, and continues through to Chapter 10 where it culminates with these words...
But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.


Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6



For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:26-29

• there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

So when they sin, then they no longer have a sacrifice for sins.

Because they have departed from Christ, they can no longer be brought to repentance and therefore no longer have a sacrifice for sins, having returned to unbelief.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rather I would state those that continue to sin and or left the faith NEVER knew Him.

OSAS makes a huge mistake by insisting that, without exception, any and all people who fall away are Matthew 7:23 fake believers. That ignores the example of the Galatians who fell away but who do not fit into the category of fake believers in Matthew 7:23.

Non-OSAS doesn't have to figure out a way to incorporate the Galatians into it's theology. It's just goes by the plain words of scripture. OSAS is the doctrine that is left struggling to bring the pieces of the Bible into cohesion. And because of that it ends up with these complicated, over-thought doctrines that make the Bible not really mean what it says and you need someone to explain it to you because you're not going to see it for yourself in a plain read of scripture. OSAS says the common man is not capable of seeing it by himself.

 

[Randy]

OSAS makes a huge mistake by insisting that, without exception, any and all people who fall away are Matthew 7:23 fake believers. That ignores the example of the Galatians who fell away but who do not fit into the category of fake believers in Matthew 7:23.

Non-OSAS doesn't have to figure out a way to incorporate the Galatians into it's theology. It's just goes by the plain words of scripture. OSAS is the doctrine that is left struggling to bring the pieces of the Bible into cohesion. And because of that it ends up with these complicated, over-thought doctrines that make the Bible not really mean what it says and you need someone to explain it to you because you're not going to see it for yourself in a plain read of scripture. OSAS says the common man is not capable of seeing it by himself.

I don't preach OSAS. And I only consider it in regard those who have the Spirit of Christ in them.
I preach with all the warnings given.

Or rather all those who abide in Jesus are really His disciples. They will know the truth and the truth will set them free.

To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples

 

[Randy]

The context of Hebrews 10 is to those who are in covenant with Christ, sanctified believers who have departed from Christ and returned to Judaism.

This context actually begins in Hebrews 3, and continues through to Chapter 10 where it culminates with these words...
But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.


Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6



For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:26-29

• there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

So when they sin, then they no longer have a sacrifice for sins.

Because they have departed from Christ, they can no longer be brought to repentance and therefore no longer have a sacrifice for sins, having returned to unbelief.



JLB

If one falls away from Christ they didn't know Him. As is written they left us because they didn't belong to us.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

All Jews weren't saved. Haven't you read the soul that sins will die and its better for the one man to die then the whole nation to perish?
Its clear they were not able to enter because of their unbelief. They were those that Jesus stated He knew they didn't believe but that ALL that the Father gave Him would come to Him.

If I consider OSAS it would only be in regard to those who are born again. Which I believe are those who are the good soil the word falls on.

Paul himself was set aside from the womb before He did good or bad. When Jesus called Him He wasn't at that time someone who believed in the Lord. And despite the shipwrecks, stoning's, and 40 lashes and abuse from fellow country men and concern for all the churches He kept the faith and finished the race. Jesus chose Him. That should show you His ability to keep His own safe from the evil one.

Being chosen to be an Apostle God did not override Paul's free will. God foreknew Paul, if approached as he was on the road to Damascus, would choose of his own free will to obey. Paul did have the free will to choose to disobey (Acts 26:19). Paul's salvation though was not an unconditional guarantee regardless of anything Paul did for he said of himself he could become a reprobate, 1 Cor 9:27.

The physical birth put the Jew into a covenant relationship with God. They could never fall from that covenant relationship if OSAS were true.

 

[Randy]

The context of Hebrews 10 is to those who are in covenant with Christ, sanctified believers who have departed from Christ and returned to Judaism.

This context actually begins in Hebrews 3, and continues through to Chapter 10 where it culminates with these words...
But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.


Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6



For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:26-29

• there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

So when they sin, then they no longer have a sacrifice for sins.

Because they have departed from Christ, they can no longer be brought to repentance and therefore no longer have a sacrifice for sins, having returned to unbelief.



JLB

If they continued to sin AFTER coming to the knowledge of the blood of the covenant that sanctified them they are worse off they they were before. As is written a dog returns to it vomit.
If one abides in Jesus's words that shows they really are His disciples.

 

[Randy]

Being chosen to be an Apostle God did not override Paul's free will. God foreknew Paul, if approached as he was on the road to Damascus, would choose of his own free will to obey. Paul did have the free will to choose to disobey (Acts 26:19). Paul's salvation though was not an unconditional guarantee regardless of anything Paul did for he said of himself he could become a reprobate, 1 Cor 9:27.

The physical birth put the Jew into a covenant relationship with God. They could never fall from that covenant relationship if OSAS were true.

Paul kept the faith. The other apostles except Judas kept the faith. That tells me they really belonged to Jesus. I believe they had free will but I also believe Jesus chose them. I am free will.

Free will-
From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”
Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Paul kept the faith. The other apostles except Judas kept the faith. That tells me they really belonged to Jesus. I believe they had free will but I also believe Jesus chose them. I am free will.

Free will-
From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”
Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Are you suggesting that Judas was never really saved?

Jn 6:66 "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

it is possible for one to leave Christ, fall away and become lost.

Jn 6:67 "Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?"

The word 'also' implies that the 12 Apostles could turn and leave Christ just as those in v66 did. Jesus would not implied this possibility if it were not true. Even though one Apostle (Judas) did turn from Christ, had all 12 turn from Christ would not imply in anyway they "never did really have faith".

Jn 6:70 "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" The Bible does not say Judas was ALWAYS a devil, ALWAYS a betrayer...that is what Judas BECOME. Jn 6:64 it says Jesus KNEW from the beginning who would betray Him. It does not say Judas was a betrayer from the beginning.

 

[JLB]

If they continued to sin AFTER coming to the knowledge of the blood of the covenant that sanctified them they are worse off they they were before. As is written a dog returns to it vomit.
If one abides in Jesus's words that shows they really are His disciples.

I thought we could confess our sins and be forgiven?

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 18-10

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Again Hebrews 10 is speaking to those who have returned to unbelief by departing from Christ.


They no longer have the blood of Jesus as a sacrifice for their sins, since they no longer believe.



JLB

 

[netchaplain]

Hebrews 10 is clearly warning

I see them as admonishments, because until quite a few years after learning Paul's Epistles, they were all still on the milk of the Word concerning growth. But those who "live and walk in the Spirit" have no law against them (Gal 5:23). "The law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, etc.).

 

[JLB]

If one falls away from Christ they didn't know Him. As is written they left us because they didn't belong to us.

Your doctrine condemns those who have become lost as false Christians.

What you would have us believe is, the prodigal son was never really a true son.

His sheep who becone lost, must repent and return and be reconciled back to Him.

There are literally millions of believers who are wandering as lost sheep who have left the trappings of denominational churches because they are disillusioned with the friends and family clicks that run these churches. These are discouraged Christians who are hungry for the truth.

You message to them is
"You were never saved" ?

Totally unbiblical.

 

[Randy]

Your doctrine condemns those who have become lost as false Christians.

What you would have us believe is, the prodigal son was never really a true son.

His sheep who becone lost, must repent and return and be reconciled back to Him.

There are literally millions of believers who are wandering as lost sheep who have left the trappings of denominational churches because they are disillusioned with the friends and family clicks that run these churches. These are discouraged Christians who are hungry for the truth.

You message to them is
"You were never saved" ?

Totally unbiblical.

The key word was to "continue" to sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth.

Your statement is very general, broad and without specific details. What I see is I don't know those "millions" you state in your comment.

Left us means leaving the faith. To those I would state they never knew Jesus.

 

[Randy]

Are you suggesting that Judas was never really saved?

Jn 6:66 "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

it is possible for one to leave Christ, fall away and become lost.

Jn 6:67 "Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?"

The word 'also' implies that the 12 Apostles could turn and leave Christ just as those in v66 did. Jesus would not implied this possibility if it were not true. Even though one Apostle (Judas) did turn from Christ, had all 12 turn from Christ would not imply in anyway they "never did really have faith".

Jn 6:70 "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" The Bible does not say Judas was ALWAYS a devil, ALWAYS a betrayer...that is what Judas BECOME. Jn 6:64 it says Jesus KNEW from the beginning who would betray Him. It does not say Judas was a betrayer from the beginning.

Your blowing smoke.
Jesus called Judas a devil He didn't state will become a devil. That was before the betrayal. It was noted Judas was a thief and helped himself to the collection money.
I think its clear Judas didn't love the Lord.

 

[JLB]

The key word was to "continue" to sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth.

Your statement is very general, broad and without specific details. What I see is I don't know those "millions" you state in your comment.

Left us means leaving the faith. To those I would state they never knew Jesus.

You will need to provide scripture with context at this point.


Do you believe the prodigal son was not really a son of his father because he left?


But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.’
“And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ” Luke 15:30-31


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!

Sorry but your doctrine does not come from Jesus Christ.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus called Judas a devil He didn't state will become a devil.

Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23

• But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan!

JLB

 

[Randy]

I thought we could confess our sins and be forgiven?

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 18-10

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Again Hebrews 10 is speaking to those who have returned to unbelief by departing from Christ.


They no longer have the blood of Jesus as a sacrifice for their sins, since they no longer believe.



JLB

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

Now Hebrews 10
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God

Those who keep sinning are not born of God nor have seen Jesus nor known Him.

By their deeds they rejected the blood of the covenant introduced by Jesus regardless of what they claim to be.