Wresting or Reasoning Scripture

[netchaplain]

The same physical body you once had before you were saved is the same exact physical body you have now that you are saved, and it still wants the same things it did before you were saved

I'm not sure we're on the same subject, but concerning the body, it's no more sinful than any other object, because that's all it is, a thing, and things don't have a spirit, but a spirit is in our body. It's the spirit that has the sin, not the body, which is used by the spirit as an instrument of good or evil. Like a knife or gun used for good or evil.

 

[JLB]

I'm not sure we're on the same subject, but concerning the body, it's no more sinful than any other object, because that's all it is, a thing, and things don't have a spirit, but a spirit is in our body.

Our physical body contains sin. Sin desires to gratify itself thought lust; lustful manifestions.


Here is Paul describing the works, or manifestations of the flesh.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


Paul tells us how to avoid fulfilling the lustful desires of our flesh; of our physical body.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17

• Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

This is the way the born again Christian is instructed to avoid fulfilling the lustful cravings of the flesh.




JLB

 

[netchaplain]

Our physical body contains sin. Sin desires to gratify itself thought lust; lustful manifestions.

I don't think we can blame the body for how the spirit decides to use it. Like blaming the pen for how the hand writes. Responsibility or incurred sin is attributed to that which makes the decisions, which is the spirit, who makes the decisions with the soul according to its sin nature. Not that this issue carries much significance concerning the truths of it.

 

[JLB]

I don't think we can blame the body for how the spirit decides to use it.

The scriptures don’t mention blame.

It’s not about blame.

The flesh lusts against the Spirit.

The flesh desires to fulfill its sinful cravings.

The Spirit desires for us to practice righteousness.

Which ever one you feed, which ever one you sow to, invest your time and energy into, from that one you will reap, whether eternal life or eternal damnation.


Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

• For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption,
• but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

If you invest your time doing what the Spirit desires you to do, in the end you will of the Spirit read everlasting life.





JLB

 

[netchaplain]

The flesh lusts against the Spirit.

About 95% of the time the word "flesh" in the NT is in reference to the sin nature of the person, not the body:

Definition IV: the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God .

G4561 - sarx - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G4561 - σάρξ sárx, sarx; probably from the base of ; flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e. (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human...

www.blueletterbible.org

 

[Randy]

If OSAS were true, then those Jews would have never become lost.

The ones God reserved were the ones who OBEYED Him by not bowing to Baal. Those who obey Christ's word become saved (Heb 5:9) and will remain saved as long as they conditionally continue to obey Christ's word (Jn 8:31). Those who disobey Christ turning from Him become lost Jn 6:66-67.

The seed that falls on the good soil produces a crop.

As I stated in regard to the Israelite's God made a distinction between the righteous and unrighteous. They were not saved by heritage. The soul who sins will die.

However God can choose to save by grace therefore He can keep people from falling.

"God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah-how he appealed to God against Israel: "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace"

 

[Jethro Bodine]

These 2 passages are in reference to believers, not to those who merely profess to be believers.


The Son of God would hypothetically be “trodden underfoot,” if it were possible for one to believe the knowledge of the truth (Gospel of Christ) and continue to willfully sin as before conversion. But this is a supposition (if) of something that is impossible, because believers do not sin willfully, which is the point of Hebrews 10:26-29 and 6:4-6.

This is what Paul means that when he sins (which I’m certain was quite minimal in frequency and in severity) it’s not him doing it willfully (“I allow not”). Chapter 7 from verse 14 onward displays the old and new natures of Paul after his conversion, finishing with, “So then with the mind I myself (in the new man) serve the law of God; but with the flesh (old man) the law of sin” (v 25).

This also explains what Paul meant by being a “captive” (7:23). When he sins it’s like one who does it against the desire and will, which is unlike before conversion when it was his desire to sin—being still sin-dominated before regeneration. The reason why believers no longer desire to sin is because they “are not in the flesh” (i.e. after the sin nature – Ro 8:9).

Yes, the person has to go back to unbelief to indulge his old life of sin.
Believers don't do that. Ex-believers do that.
That is exactly the point I've been making for years.
Hebrews 10:26-31 is about the saved, sanctified person going back to unbelief in a willful sinning.
Obviously, if he continued to believe he wouldn't be doing that.
This is about an ex-believer going back to his life of sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

About 95% of the time the word "flesh" in the NT is in reference to the sin nature of the person, not the body:

Definition IV: the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God .

G4561 - sarx - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G4561 - σάρξ sárx, sarx; probably from the base of ; flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e. (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human...

www.blueletterbible.org

And a lot of problems interpreters have caused by saying 'sin nature' instead of simply 'flesh'.
As far as I know the NIV has stopped doing that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe only those who never choose to believe "the knowledge of the truth" will be deceived (destroyed - not suspecting any single person of this but making a general statement).

There really is such a thing as an ex-believer.
Don't let man-made, agenda driven doctrine make you think otherwise.

 

[JLB]

About 95% of the time the word "flesh" in the NT is in reference to the sin nature of the person, not the body:

Definition IV: the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God .

G4561 - sarx - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G4561 - σάρξ sárx, sarx; probably from the base of ; flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e. (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human...

www.blueletterbible.org

So you believe your physically body is sinless?

So now flesh really doesn’t mean your physically body?


Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:12-13



Where is this “flesh nature” if not in the physically body.

The instruction is still the same for avoiding living according to the flesh.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17


Here are the works of the flesh.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Christians who live according to the flesh, and practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Same instructions no matter what definition you decide to come up with for flesh.

Same outcome for living according to the flesh.




JLB

 

[netchaplain]

Yes, the person has to go back to unbelief to indulge his old life of sin.
Believers don't do that. Ex-believers do that.
That is exactly the point I've been making for years.
Hebrews 10:26-31 is about the saved, sanctified person going back to unbelief in a willful sinning.
Obviously, if he continued to believe he wouldn't be doing that.
This is about an ex-believer going back to his life of sin.

I think one who genuinely believes will never stop believing, and one who only professes to believe will eventually manifest the proverb, "The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire" (2Pe 2:22). We can learn of the truth of the Gospel and yet be void of the desire to believe it; and then for false conscience-building profess and act that we believe, or even think we do believe. Since in this case we are not regenerated (saved), we will inevitably cease from the hypocrisy, i.e. return again outwardly to what we are inwardly. Nobody can fake it permanently.

Gill - "The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again, and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire;" which expresses the filthy nature of sin, signified by vomit, mire, and dirt, than which nothing is more abominable and defiling; and also the just characters of these apostates, who are fitly compared to dogs and swine and likewise their irreclaimable and irrecoverable state and condition, it being impossible they should be otherwise, unless their natures were changed and altered. In the Hebrew language, a "sow" is called ryzx, from the root rzx, which signifies to "return," because that creature, as soon as it is out of the mire and dirt, and is washed from its filthiness, naturally returns to it again: so such apostates return to what they were before, to their former principles and practices: in this manner the Jews explain the proverb, "Tobiah returns to Tobiah, as it is said, Proverbs 26:11; as a dog returneth to his vomit {r}."

 

[netchaplain]

So you believe your physically body is sinless?

So now flesh really doesn’t mean your physically body?

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:12-13

I don't believe this means to "let not your body allow sin to rule," but it means for the individual not to let sin rule in your body. It's the spirit (person) in the body who decides what the body will do, using it for good or evil.

This and all other admonishments have a twofold purpose: for the convert to be aware of it, who will continue in it; and if one is not aware of it, it identifies you as a natural man, because only the natural man, being unregenerate, is ruled and dominated (vs 12, 14) by the sin nature.

 

[Randy]

"Through faith"

No more faith - no more shield of God's protection.

What caused their faith to fail through Gods shield? How were they snatched out of Jesus's hands if they hear His voice? You think the Lord stood by and watched without acting?

The seed that falls on the good soil will produce a crop.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The seed that falls on the good soil produces a crop.

As I stated in regard to the Israelite's God made a distinction between the righteous and unrighteous. They were not saved by heritage. The soul who sins will die.

However God can choose to save by grace therefore He can keep people from falling.

"God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah-how he appealed to God against Israel: "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace"

The few Jews that obeyed Christ, as Paul, were saved while the rest were lost (Rom 10:1-2). Those Jews that became Christians (spiritual Jews - Rom 2:28-29) are the people God foreknew. Even though Paul was a fleshly Jew he was not among those cut off for he obeyed (Acts 22:16) becoming part of the foreknown group/people.....Christian.

Again, if OSAS were true, then it would have been impossible for the unbelieving Jews to fall, be cut off, cast off, broken off. One never really saved cannot fall, cannot be broken off, cut off from what he never a part of.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What caused their faith to fail through Gods shield?

The word of God was not deeply rooted in their hearts.
The shielding of God's power works through a person's faith.
No faith = no shield of God's power.

How were they snatched out of Jesus's hands if they hear His voice?

They weren't.
As I've showed you, in context, being snatched away is referring to being put out of Christ against your will.

You think the Lord stood by and watched without acting?

No.

The seed that falls on the good soil will produce a crop.

That's why we should all seek to have good soil.....so the word won't be so easily uprooted from our hearts in willful unbelief when the hard times come.

 

[Randy]

The word of God was not deeply rooted in their hearts.
The shielding of God's power works through a person's faith.
No faith = no shield of God's power.


They weren't.
As I've showed you, in context, being snatched away is referring to being put out of Christ against your will.


No.


That's why we should all seek to have good soil.....so the word won't be so easily uprooted from our hearts in willful unbelief when the hard times come.

Yes no faith means no shield. So those wouldn't be those who are born again. Nor those Jesus claimed as His sheep.

 

[Randy]

The few Jews that obeyed Christ, as Paul, were saved while the rest were lost (Rom 10:1-2). Those Jews that became Christians (spiritual Jews - Rom 2:28-29) are the people God foreknew. Even though Paul was a fleshly Jew he was not among those cut off for he obeyed (Acts 22:16) becoming part of the foreknown group/people.....Christian.

Again, if OSAS were true, then it would have been impossible for the unbelieving Jews to fall, be cut off, cast off, broken off. One never really saved cannot fall, cannot be broken off, cut off from what he never a part of.

All Jews weren't saved. Haven't you read the soul that sins will die and its better for the one man to die then the whole nation to perish?
Its clear they were not able to enter because of their unbelief. They were those that Jesus stated He knew they didn't believe but that ALL that the Father gave Him would come to Him.

If I consider OSAS it would only be in regard to those who are born again. Which I believe are those who are the good soil the word falls on.

Paul himself was set aside from the womb before He did good or bad. When Jesus called Him He wasn't at that time someone who believed in the Lord. And despite the shipwrecks, stoning's, and 40 lashes and abuse from fellow country men and concern for all the churches He kept the faith and finished the race. Jesus chose Him. That should show you His ability to keep His own safe from the evil one.

 

[JLB]

What caused their faith to fail through Gods shield? How were they snatched out of Jesus's hands if they hear His voice? You think the Lord stood by and watched without acting?

The seed that falls on the good soil will produce a crop.

They were removed from Christ.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:1-2


JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes no faith means no shield. So those wouldn't be those who are born again. Nor those Jesus claimed as His sheep.

What is the condition for a person to be saved?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think one who genuinely believes will never stop believing, and one who only professes to believe will eventually manifest the proverb, "The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire" (2Pe 2:22). We can learn of the truth of the Gospel and yet be void of the desire to believe it; and then for false conscience-building profess and act that we believe, or even think we do believe. Since in this case we are not regenerated (saved), we will inevitably cease from the hypocrisy, i.e. return again outwardly to what we are inwardly. Nobody can fake it permanently.

Yes, we know these kinds of fake believers exist, and how eventually their lives will prove they were never saved to begin with.

Then there is the saved, sanctified person going back to unbelief and back to his life of sin in Hebrews 10.
You can't just make it go away by saying the author is speaking hypothetically. That would make the letter to the Hebrews an unneeded waste of ink and paper. Why warn true, sanctified believers of a fate that they can never suffer?

If what you say is true, then warning them, or not warning them has no bearing on them avoiding what they are being warned against. See, if you say the warning itself is what keeps them believing and thus saved, then that means if you don't warn them.... Oops! Can't say that. OSAS insists they're still saved. So we see the warning is not necessary. The OSAS argument falls flat on it's face.

You can't make Hebrews 10 go away.
Calvinism is an over-thought, complicated, dishonest doctrine that strains to make the Bible not really mean what it says.
It plainly talks about sanctified, saved believers going back to the willful sinning of unbelief and the consequence of doing that. What's funny is, even Calvinism says the passage is about turning back in unbelief, except it ignores the part about them being sanctified, saved believers and insists it's talking about people who didn't really believe to begin with.

I think you're a smart man. And I think you love the scriptures, too.
If you'd let this OSAS thing go and just let the scriptures says what they say you'd be amazed at how easy, simple, and not complicated and easily understood the scriptures are, and how easy they are to defend. You'll see they add up very easily in the non-OSAS world whereas OSAS has to strain and twist to make the Bible consistent with itself.