Wresting or Reasoning Scripture

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes no faith means no shield. So those wouldn't be those who are born again. Nor those Jesus claimed as His sheep.

That's right. Only unbelievers and ex-believers don't have the faith through which they would otherwise be shielded by God's power unto salvation.

Hebrews 10 talks about real, sanctified believers going back to the willful sinning of unbelief, not born again people doing that. Believing born again people don't do that. Ex-believers do that. Even Calvinism acknowledges that Hebrews 10 is about willfully going back to unbelief. It just asserts that the people shrinking back into unbelief never really believed to begin with. But that's not what the passage says. It's amazing to me how Calvinism can decide to just ignore what the passage actually says. Is it because people who believe in OSAS are afraid that if you go by what the passage actually says it makes other passages of scripture false? If so, I can show that is not true at all.

 

[netchaplain]

If what you say is true, then warning them, or not warning them has no bearing on them avoiding what they are being warned against.

What many call warnings I see as admonishments to early converts (all were new converts until quite some time after Paul's teachings). There's no need to warn believers, who are those that will never desire to cease from loving God.

See, if you say the warning itself is what keeps them believing and thus saved, then that means if you don't warn them.... Oops! Can't say that. OSAS insists they're still saved. So we see the warning is not necessary. The OSAS argument falls flat on it's face.

Those who believe in permanent faith and salvation know those who do not remain in their profession are only leaving a false faith.

I think you're a smart man. And I think you love the scriptures, too.

Appreciate your compliment, and I believe all in these forums are believers seeking truth, which we will always continue to do.

If you'd let this OSAS thing go and just let the scriptures says what they say you'd be amazed at how easy, simple, and not complicated and easily understood the scriptures are, and how easy they are to defend. You'll see they add up very easily in the non-OSAS world whereas OSAS has to strain and twist to make the Bible consistent with itself.

The first 20 years of my 45 year walk I was much like many believers today in how I understood Biblical growth truths of the NT, then eventually realized it's best to see how to harmonize Scripture with the aid of those who know it best and have studied it most. Most of these are believers whom God uses in teaching true doctrine, but I believe most who study without them will never discover the advantage of their tutoring.

Scripture has always been the easiest to understand in the OT, but the NT was written in a way that is not easy to fully understand it's doctrines until applying much seeking and studying allows one to sufficiently comprehend its growth truths. It's all a matter of how we handle the truth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What many call warnings I see as admonishments to early converts (all were new converts until quite some time after Paul's teachings). There's no need to warn believers, who are those that will never desire to cease from loving God.

Hebrews 10 is clearly a warning.
Hebrews 10 is clearly warning saved, sanctified believers what will happen if they fall away into the willful sin of unbelief.
Yet you say there is no need to warn believers.
OSAS has to twist and contort things to get around this obvious fact.
Me? I just take it for what it plainly says.
I never have to strain to make scriptures fit with each other with complicated and esoteric interpretations.
It's quite liberating. I used to have to do a lot of gymnastics to explain the scriptures.
Non-OSAS made it so I don't have to do that anymore.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The first 20 years of my 45 year walk I was much like many believers today in how I understood Biblical growth truths of the NT, then eventually realized it's best to see how to harmonize Scripture with the aid of those who know it best and have studied it most.

I have the exact opposite experience in my 34 year walk.
Through just reading the Bible for myself and discussing it in open groups I realized how it's best NOT to use the aid of those who (supposedly) know it best. I found too many instances where what they say doesn't line up with what the Bible actually says and ends up making the Bible 'not really' mean what it says. That's why I call OSAS the 'not really' doctrine of the church.

 

[JLB]

There's no need to warn believers, who are those that will never desire to cease from loving God.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Can a brother hate his brother and love God?



JLB

 

[Randy]

What is the condition for a person to be saved?

Faith in Jesus
Those that believe for a while at that point are sanctified by their faith in Jesus.

 

[Randy]

Hebrews 10 is clearly a warning.
Hebrews 10 is clearly warning saved, sanctified believers what will happen if they fall away into the willful sin of unbelief.
Yet you say there is no need to warn believers.
OSAS has to twist and contort things to get around this obvious fact.
Me? I just take it for what it plainly says.
I never have to strain to make scriptures fit with each other with complicated and esoteric interpretations.
It's quite liberating. I used to have to do a lot of gymnastics to explain the scriptures.
Non-OSAS made it so I don't have to do that anymore.

I don't agree with your take on Hebrews 10.
It is a warning but to those that didn't shrink back and states the outcome of those who come to the knowledge of the truth and continue to sin. Jesus introduced a covenant in His blood. Those that continued to sin trampled on that sanctification introduced by Jesus.

These christian's are not those who did NOT shrink back - they hold to the testimony of Jesus and they show by that they belong to Jesus

Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

 

[JLB]

Faith in Jesus
Those that believe for a while at that point are sanctified by their faith in Jesus.

Yes. Those who believe for a while are saved when they believe. Later because of persecution they desert Christ to save their life.

 

[Randy]

Yes. Those who believe for a while are saved when they believe. Later because of persecution they desert Christ to save their life.

Which is the seed that falls on the rocks and thorns.

 

[JLB]

Which is the seed that falls on the rocks and thorns.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Jesus gave us the condition, His condition for being saved.

Believe; believe in the way Jesus means believe.

Believe = Saved



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't agree with your take on Hebrews 10.
It is a warning but to those that didn't shrink back and states the outcome of those who come to the knowledge of the truth and continue to sin. Jesus introduced a covenant in His blood. Those that continued to sin trampled on that sanctification introduced by Jesus.

Which part of 'sanctified' do you not agree with here?

"...we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." - Hebrews 10:10

"...by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified." - Hebrews 10:14

"29How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace?" - Hebrews 10:29

 

[Jethro Bodine]

These christian's are not those who did NOT shrink back - they hold to the testimony of Jesus and they show by that they belong to Jesus

We know he's talking to genuinely saved, sanctified people.
The point is, if they are not of those who shrink back, why are they being warned not to shrink back?

"35So do not throw away your confidence; it holds a great reward. 36You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised.
39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
Hebrews 10:35,36,39

According to OSAS doctrine, whether they get warned about falling away, or not, they can never fall away and can't ever be lost. The warning serves no useful purpose in their salvation. So why did the author write a whole letter to saved, sanctified believers, who can't fall away, warning them not to fall away and telling them the consequences if they do fall away?

These are the problematic questions for OSAS. But for non-OSAS the book makes complete sense and does not need theological gymnastics and complicated theologies and excuses to explain the book. Non-OSAS just reads it for what it plainly says.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

Yes, people who BELIEVE do not go on sinning. This is descriptive of believers, not unbelievers, nor ex-believers who fall away from their faith. But, if the believer does continue in sin it shows their lack of maturity (1 John 3:6). God knows them, but they do not know him in an intimate way that would keep them from continuing in their sin.
That's why the saved Galatians were falling away:

"9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God" - Galatians 4:9

See? He is pointing out to these saved Galatians that God knows them, but they do not know God, yet. That is why they were not persevering in the word.

I've been saying this all along, the Bible is consistent. The 2nd type of soil in the Parable of the Sower shows us that it is the immature believer that is at risk of not continuing in their faith and falling away. They have yet to develop an intimate 'knowing' relationship with God that enables them to persevere to the very end and not fall away like the 4th kind of soil. God knows them, but they do not know God intimately.

 

[Randy]

Yes, people who BELIEVE do not go on sinning. This is descriptive of believers, not unbelievers, nor ex-believers who fall away from their faith. But, if the believer does continue in sin it shows their lack of maturity (1 John 3:6). God knows them, but they do not know him in an intimate way that would keep them from continuing in their sin.
That's why the saved Galatians were falling away:

"9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God" - Galatians 4:9

See? He is pointing out to these saved Galatians that God knows them, but they do not know God, yet. That is why they were not persevering in the word.

I've been saying this all along, the Bible is consistent. The 2nd type of soil in the Parable of the Sower shows us that it is the immature believer that is at risk of not continuing in their faith and falling away. They have yet to develop an intimate 'knowing' relationship with God that enables them to persevere to the very end and not fall away like the 4th kind of soil. God knows them, but they do not know God intimately.

What I highlighted is clear to me without you bending the text to meet your beliefs.
Its cohesive with the Lords words.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

 

[Randy]

We know he's talking to genuinely saved, sanctified people.
The point is, if they are not of those who shrink back, why are they being warned not to shrink back?

"35So do not throw away your confidence; it holds a great reward. 36You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised.
39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
Hebrews 10:35,36,39

According to OSAS doctrine, whether they get warned about falling away, or not, they can never fall away and can't ever be lost. The warning serves no useful purpose in their salvation. So why did the author write a whole letter to saved, sanctified believers, who can't fall away, warning them not to fall away and telling them the consequences if they do fall away?

These are the problematic questions for OSAS. But for non-OSAS the book makes complete sense and does not need theological gymnastics and complicated theologies and excuses to explain the book. Non-OSAS just reads it for what it plainly says.

He's speaking of the covenant Jesus introduced to Israel. - Those that trampled on that covenant.
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds

 

[JLB]

What I highlighted is clear to me without you bending the text to meet your beliefs.
Its cohesive with the Lords words.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Yes, this scripture certainly shows us that there are some who will never know Christ.


However that is not what we are discussing.


We are discussing people who believe and are need sanctified.


JLB

 

[JLB]

He's speaking of the covenant Jesus introduced to Israel. - Those that trampled on that covenant.
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds

Are you saying the New Covenant is just for Jews?

 

[Randy]

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Jesus gave us the condition, His condition for being saved.

Believe; believe in the way Jesus means believe.

Believe = Saved



JLB

The text stated they believed for a little while. In falling away they turned their back to Jesus. They fell away because they didn't belong to Him. For if they belonged to Him they would have held firm to the testimony. If one holds to the testimony and obeys Gods commandments that shows they belong to Him. I believe the one who is born of God will meet that criteria.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What I highlighted is clear to me without you bending the text to meet your beliefs.
Its cohesive with the Lords words.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Who's bending the text?
I showed you what the Bible plainly says.
No complicated theologies required.
Just read the passages of scripture regarding the subject and, walla, you have the truth.
OSAS is the doctrine that has to struggle and strain and twist to defend itself because it's the doctrine that can't take scripture for what it actually says.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He's speaking of the covenant Jesus introduced to Israel. - Those that trampled on that covenant.
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds

You'll have to expound on your explanation.
I'm not understanding your argument.