Wresting or Reasoning Scripture

[JLB]

"God who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Phl 1:6)
What is God's "good work in you"? Faith; and when will He cease from this work in you? When Jesus has us, seeing it will be no longer needed.

Thus the very thing God's works in us is that of keeping us in the faith! Saving faith begins with Jesus (Author) and ends with Jesus (Finisher). The absence of faith is the absence of the fruit of faith--which is only "fruit" (works) by the Spirit.

Yes, most definitely we believe God will do His part. Which is all the more reason to “hold fast“ to the word by which we are saved. We can and should trust in God that He is faithful to finish His work in us. It’s only when we stop believing and trusting in Him, in which we neglect so great a salvation, that we become vulnerable to fall away from Him.


Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain. Philippians 2:12-16


Any verse we read can not be taken out of the foundational context of “holding fast” to the word by which we were saved, which is why Paul is constantly reiterating it.

Holding fast means we continue to believe; we continue in the faith.

Not departing from the faith by which we were saved.

Paul says if they don’t hold fast to that word by which they were saved then all his work he has done among them was done in vain.

Surely this vital point is clear.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Thus the very thing God's works in us is that of keeping us in the faith!

God is constantly working in us by His grace, by His Spirit.

He is working in us to be conformed to the image of Christ, His Son, that we would walk as He walked.

That we would be followers of Christ.



JLB

 

[Randy]

Brother , demons know Jesus lives.

Believing Jesus is Lord, is useless without following Him (obeying Him) as Lord.

Hearing His voice means listening and following His instructions, so we don't become lost.

JLB

The Spirit testifies to our spirit we are the children of God. We not only believe we KNOW.
At the time of the end the beast will not be able to deceive away the elect from Jesus despite the many signs given. Even calling down fire from the sky.

God gives the Spirit to those that obey Him.

 

[Randy]

We're not talking about being deceived.
We're talking about willfully abandoning the grace of God.
A believer can do that.
Jesus gives reasons why a believer would do that.


That is correct.
You can not be snatched away from the flock against your will.
What we're talking about here is willingly departing from the flock.
The Shepherd won't let you go easily, but if you are set on leaving he will leave you to it.


Hebrews 10:10,14,29 is talking about saved, sanctified believers. The passage itself says so.

So is 1 John

We're not talking about being deceived.
We're talking about willfully abandoning the grace of God.
A believer can do that.
Jesus gives reasons why a believer would do that.


That is correct.
You can not be snatched away from the flock against your will.
What we're talking about here is willingly departing from the flock.
The Shepherd won't let you go easily, but if you are set on leaving he will leave you to it.


Hebrews 10:10,14,29 is talking about saved, sanctified believers. The passage itself says so.

The cause can not be unbelief.

A gay priest is a example of one who claims Christ they believe and participate in the church. But they will never receive the Spirit in their disobedience. As one who continues to sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth.

This is clear to me.
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Even so My stance hasn't changed
Jesus-remain in me and I will remain in you.

I share Judes confidence though.
To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

That's why we should continue to believe and remain new creations. The promises belong to the believer, not the ex-believer.
The person who departs from the Lord in willful unbelief is the one who has no sacrifice remaining to deliver him from his sin and ends up back in his sin, and worse this time.

 

[Randy]

That's why we should continue to believe and remain new creations. The promises belong to the believer, not the ex-believer.
The person who departs from the Lord in willful unbelief is the one who has no sacrifice remaining to deliver him from his sin and ends up back in his sin, and worse this time.

I reject your premise of unbelief as a cause for one born again. They received the Spirit by faith and obedience which is prompted by their love for Jesus. They can't NOT know that testimony to their being. In regard to willful sin its highly unlikely those that received the Spirit would later commit eternal suicide and they would know that outcome as well the lake of fire. That's insanity.

We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

Their kept safe. How then would they come to the state to deny the Lord as in walk away from the faith? Jesus always remains faithful.

I believe there are in the world people who proclaim or once proclaimed Jesus as Lord that do not have the Spirit. They can fall away as they never really believed. As in they left us because they never really belonged to us. And the false teachers are those who didn't have the Spirit.

 

[JLB]

The Spirit testifies to our spirit we are the children of God. We not only believe we KNOW.

Amen!!!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I reject your premise of unbelief as a cause for one born again. They received the Spirit by faith and obedience which is prompted by their love for Jesus. They can't NOT know that testimony to their being.

If 'believing' was merely knowing that Christ was real that would be true.
But 'believing' means not only knowing that the gospel is true but also trusting in the gospel.

People who abandon the faith don't suddenly have it erased from their memory.
People who abandon the faith have decided to not care about it anymore. And so they don't retain it in that way.
It isn't about retaining and holding on to mere facts.
The one who abandons the faith loses the Spiritual revelation of the gospel and thus the ability to place their trust in it.

 

[JLB]

At the time of the end the beast will not be able to deceive away the elect from Jesus despite the many signs given. Even calling down fire from the sky.

God gives the Spirit to those that obey Him.

God certainly gives the Spirit to those who obey Him; to those who obey the Gospel.

His Spirit empowers us to be a witness for Jesus Christ, which is where we get the word martyr from.

The Spirit gives us the power to both, live the Christian life, and die the Christian death.

This does not mean, in either case, that we somehow do this
“automatically“, walking according to the Spirit is a choice each person must make each and every day.

Dying as a martyr for Jesus Christ is the same, we must make the choice by the Spirit, to lay down our lives, and not fall away from Him to save our natural life.


Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. Matthew 16:24-25



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In regard to willful sin its highly unlikely those that received the Spirit would later commit eternal suicide and they would know that outcome as well the lake of fire. That's insanity.

It is insanity. I personally can't relate to someone doing that. But that's me. I can't project my feelings onto others and decide my feelings constitute genuine doctrine. Especially when Hebrews 10 plainly explains what happens to the saved, sanctified person who goes back to his old life in unbelief. I'm tired of the church telling everyone it doesn't really mean what it plainly says. It says what it says. It even defines who the sanctified person is that is destined for hell for trampling on the Son and insulting the Spirit. Yet countless Christians insist that other scripture, that doesn't have to only mean what they say it means, makes it so Hebrews 10 doesn't really mean what it plainly says. I'm done with it! I'm amazed at how many Christians there are that can't acknowledge the plain words of Hebrews 10. It's sickening to see how the church has twisted the word of God to suit an ear tickling doctrine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

Yes, we know that.
That's why you should continue in the salvation you have received!
Why does the church think this verse can only mean you can't lose your salvation?
Non-OSAS doesn't make the verse untrue. That's the part you're not getting.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Their kept safe. How then would they come to the state to deny the Lord as in walk away from the faith? Jesus always remains faithful.

They are kept safe if they want to be kept safe.
They come to the state of not caring about being kept safe and they depart from the faith in willful unbelief. They have that choice. God does not take that away from the believer.

 

[Randy]

God certainly gives the Spirit to those who obey Him; to those who obey the Gospel.

His Spirit empowers us to be a witness for Jesus Christ, which is where we get the word martyr from.

The Spirit gives us the power to both, live the Christian life, and die the Christian death.

This does not mean, in either case, that we somehow do this
“automatically“, walking according to the Spirit is a choice each person must make each and every day.

Dying as a martyr for Jesus Christ is the same, we must make the choice by the Spirit, to lay down our lives, and not fall away from Him to save our natural life.


Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. Matthew 16:24-25



JLB

Unbelief to those that have the Spirits witness is not a possible answer. In that witness they know Jesus the one they believed in and have loved. Willful falling away or denying the Lord to those that have the Spirit is a highly unlikely answer. You also have testimony of the Lords protection against the evil one in regard to those that have the Spirit. The one in them is greater than the one in the world.

Its not untrue about continuing in the faith. But the writers of the NT suggest or directly state those that have the Spirit will continue in the faith. That's how we know they are born of God. Those that hold to the testimony of Jesus show themselves to be His disciples. They belong to Him. Its His Fathers will that He lose none of them the Father has given Him.

Even so not everyone is mature in the faith so what Jesus stated is a wiser teaching to me.
"Remain in me and I will remain in you"

 

[Randy]

They are kept safe if they want to be kept safe.
They come to the state of not caring about being kept safe and they depart from the faith in willful unbelief. They have that choice. God does not take that away from the believer.

I didn't read that. =>They are kept safe if they want to be kept safe.
Again to those that have Gods inner witness??=> "willful unbelief"

We will not agree.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe there are in the world people who proclaim or once proclaimed Jesus as Lord that do not have the Spirit. They can fall away as they never really believed. As in they left us because they never really belonged to us. And the false teachers are those who didn't have the Spirit.

Like I say, the verse where you get this teaching from (1 John 2:19) does not have to only be understood in the (erroneous) way OSAS understands it. A simple read of vs. 24 shows that.

1 John 2:19 does not trump the obvious and clear and plain teaching of Hebrews 10 about the sanctified believer who willfully sins in unbelief. Your scriptures used to defend OSAS don't have to only mean what OSAS says they mean, but Hebrews 10 can only be understood for what it plainly says. That's the crux of your problem--you're using isolated, ill-defined scriptures to trump clearly defined scriptures. This is the whole problem with OSAS.

 

[JLB]

Unbelief to those that have the Spirits witness is not a possible answer. In that witness they know Jesus the one they believed in and have loved. Willful falling away or denying the Lord to those that have the Spirit is a highly unlikely answer. You also have testimony of the Lords protection against the evil one in regard to those that have the Spirit. The one in them is greater than the one in the world.

Sorry brother, but people who are being persecuted and tortured because they are Christians is a very real thing, and was common place during the first century and is common place today among third world countries that are Muslim or Communist such as China.


As we see the deranged left wing lunatics vying for power in the US it’s inevitable that America will see her share of persecution and martyrs, as well.


Those who endure to the end will be saved.

But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

People turning away from Christ to save their life from torture and death is a very real thing.


“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,
‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’ Revelation 2:8-11

• He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8




JLB

 

[netchaplain]

God is constantly working in us by His grace, by His Spirit.

He is working in us to be conformed to the image of Christ, His Son, that we would walk as He walked.

That we would be followers of Christ.

JLB

The simple understanding to me is that if "God is working in you to desire and do His good pleasure," how could one do otherwise? There's no sense conceiving that one could eventually not be affected by His work, which would only mean He's not working in you. Grace is the love and power of God to keep one who is regenerated to desire Him over everything.

 

[Randy]

Sorry brother, but people who are being persecuted and tortured because they are Christians is a very real thing, and was common place during the first century and is common place today among third world countries that are Muslim or Communist such as China.


As we see the deranged left wing lunatics vying for power in the US it’s inevitable that America will see her share of persecution and martyrs, as well.


Those who endure to the end will be saved.

But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

People turning away from Christ to save their life from torture and death is a very real thing.


“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,
‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’ Revelation 2:8-11

• He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8




JLB

In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

I believe and will always believe. God will not let more come on me that I am unable to bear.

 

[JLB]

The simple understanding to me is that if "God is working in you to desire and do His good pleasure," how could one do otherwise?

By desiring to do what our flesh desires to do.

This simple plain easy to understand principle is stated throughout the New Testament. One would have to willingly ignore it in order to miss it.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. Romans 6:19


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8


Here are the two clear choices each born again Christian must make.

1. he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption,
2. but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Sowing to the Spirit is the part where we yield to and cooperate with God who dwells in us, and motivates us unto godliness and righteousness, the things he works in us, according to His will.


JLB

 

[JLB]

In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

I believe and will always believe. God will not let more come on me that I am unable to bear.

Now that’s a good confession of faith!

Now add to that wonderful confession, a dedicated and faithful prayer life whereby you spend lots of time with the Lord everyday, worshipping Him, and spending time in intercession allowing Him to fill you with His Spirit, and strengthening you with His might in your inner man. Fasting and seeking Him, praying in the Spirit.


Amen.