YHWH: the Father's Name, and the Son's Name

[Brother Mike]

"And when the Comforter comes, whom I [the Son] will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth [Jn 14:6, 1John 5:20] who proceeds from the Father [where the LORD Jesus Christ now is], that One will witness concerning Me" (John 15:26, see Jn 16:14-15 LITV).

So who is sending? Both the Father and the Son are sending the [one and same] Holy Spirit. I would submit to you that the Holy Spirit belongs to the Father [YHWH] and to the Son [YHWH].



"For through Him [the Son of God, the LORD Jesus Christ, Immanuel who has been seated at the Father's right hand] we [gentiles and Jews, those far off and those near] both have access by one Spirit [the Spirit of the Lord] to the Father" (Eph 2:18 LITV).

Gentiles and Jews both have access through the Son of God by one Spirit. I hope you have an understanding of these things, and bid you well as you leave.

I suppose it's good enough. Until we get there and see without the limits of the flesh, then it's hard to picture the things we talk about here concerning the Holy Spirit, being 7 parts in Isa and Rev. Thanks for the great input

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I have addressed these titles already. You choose to believe that titles held in common with the Father makes one more than a creature. Not only does that deny Paul's proclamation that Yeshua is a creature (Col 1:15), but it simply is not true based on other examples. Other shared titles by mere men are elohim, el, adon (Lord), father, shepherd, king of Israel, savior, etc. The fact that humans share these titles does not make them more than mere creatures. The same holds true of the Son who Paul says is a creature.

Well, what you gonna do? god is a generic term also, denoting an immortal being, like us and the devil. Religion has fouled up many folks ability to read.

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Next Jesus is Jehovah or YHWH also.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him (John the Baptist) that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jesus), make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD (Jesus); and beside me there is no saviour.

Isa 43:14 Thus saith the LORD (Jesus), your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel

Isa 43:15 I am the LORD (Jesus), your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

Watch adding to the Word here. Jesus is not in there. Jesus was not the Savior to start, it was His Father. God our Saviour and.......and........and...... The Lord Jesus Christ. It was the Father who said to Abraham, "you have not withheld your only son from me." God did not withhold his either.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
(Isa 53:10-12)

3 things here, it pleased the one and Only Lord God to bruise the Son, it pleased him to divide to him a great portion by which the the only Lord God made the planets for the Son (Heb 8:1) and the Lord God's servant shall justify many by bearing their iniquities.

Jesus was the Son, a Servant, and not creator. Several scriptures say that.

Jesus was always refereed to as personal Savior. (such as "OUR" savior) It was the Father that saved the World through His son.

Act 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

It was the Father that raised up our Savior Jesus.

1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Scripture is scripture. The Father sent the Son, the Father God is the Savior and creator of all things.

 

[jocor]

I have seen no proof. Perhaps you can point me in the right direction where I might have missed something.

How many YHWHs are there? Post #1 among others.

Firstly, I have addressed your error regarding Col 1:15 and you have yet to reply. Suffice to say that in no way whatsoever does it state that Jesus is a creature. If it did, it would be directly contradicting verses 16 and 17.

Here are a few others verses. What do they mean to you? My understanding of the phrase "firstborn of ..." is in parenthesis.

The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel. Ex 6:14 (Reuben is an Israelite)
and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem. Ex 13:13 (the children that are redeemed are humans)
Who smote the firstborn of Egypt, both of man and beast. Psalm 135:8 (the firstborn children that died were Egyptians).
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:15 (Yeshua is a creature)

You can try to explain this verse away, but it stands as a witness to the fact that Yeshua is a created being, a creature.

Secondly, to use such "titles" of both the Father and a mere creature would be blasphemous. One cannot claim that both the Father and a creature are "the Alpha and the Omega" or "the first and the last" or "the beginning and the end". That would be blasphemy.

You claimed previously that "Each of the titles in Rev 22:13 mean basically the same thing. Yeshua was the first being and will be the last being ever to be begotten directly by Yahweh in the flesh." But if that is the case, then we must also conclude that the Father is the first being and will be the last being ever begotten directly by Yahweh. This becomes nonsense. Parallel statements like this are used for a reason--they link similar things together.

It is not blasphemy when rightly understands that they are those titles in their own unique way. I said the TITLES mean basically the same thing, ie; first and last. I did not say they are applied the same way. The Father is the first uncreated being to ever exist and He will be the last to ever exist. There are no other uncreated beings.

 

[jocor]

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

Watch adding to the Word here. Jesus is not in there. Jesus was not the Savior to start, it was His Father. God our Saviour and.......and........and...... The Lord Jesus Christ. It was the Father who said to Abraham, "you have not withheld your only son from me." God did not withhold his either.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
(Isa 53:10-12)

3 things here, it pleased the one and Only Lord God to bruise the Son, it pleased him to divide to him a great portion by which the the only Lord God made the planets for the Son (Heb 8:1) and the Lord God's servant shall justify many by bearing their iniquities.

Jesus was the Son, a Servant, and not creator. Several scriptures say that.

Jesus was always refereed to as personal Savior. (such as "OUR" savior) It was the Father that saved the World through His son.

Act 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

It was the Father that raised up our Savior Jesus.

1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Scripture is scripture. The Father sent the Son, the Father God is the Savior and creator of all things.

 

[Brother Mike]

You can try to explain this verse away, but it stands as a witness to the fact that Yeshua is a created being, a creature.



It is not blasphemy when rightly understands that they are those titles in their own unique way. I said the TITLES mean basically the same thing, ie; first and last. I did not say they are applied the same way. The Father is the first uncreated being to ever exist and He will be the last to ever exist. There are no other uncreated beings.

There is only ONE LORD God. One Lord Jesus Christ. That makes two (For those mathematically challenged) That is also repeated in Scriptures over and over and over.

I Have an issue though with Jesus being a "Created Being" He was the first born of many Brethren, we being the 2nd, 3rd born of the Same Word He came to earth from.

Any reference to born, or firstborn would only referrer to earth as God said today a son is born, I have begotten him by my spoken Word. John confirms this and acts also.

Jesus said the Father gave him Glory before the Earth was created, so I find no mention of Jesus having any creation date but has always been with the Father. The only thing close I find is Jesus coming from God. Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;


Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

I like how you read the Word for what it says, without adding mans Hermeneutics or doctrines in there. I am just not convinced Jesus was mentioned as created unless referencing his birth on earth and being the first born, we following him for those who have faith in Him as Lord.

 

[JLB]

Revelation 4:8-11;

And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, t
he four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.”

This passage declares that the being sitting on the throne is he "which was, and is, and is to come" and the one who created all things.

Then, Revelation 5:1, 6-7;

"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.”

Notice that the Lamb, Yeshua, takes the book from he who sits on the throne. We just saw, in Revelation 4:8-11, that the one who sits on the throne is the Creator and he "who was, and is, and is to come". Therefore, the one who takes the book from the Creator cannot also be the Creator, nor can he be he "who was, and is, and is to come". The one sitting on the throne is Yeshua's Father and Yeshua's God (Yahweh Elohim Almighty). By extension, the one speaking in Rev 1:8 is the same being sitting on the throne (the Creator and he "who was, and is, and is to come". He is also the "Almighty", a title never used for the Son.

Thanks for the tip on URL links.

You continue to deny the Lord Jesus and who the scriptures say that He is, just like those of the religion of Judaism did and do today.

12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last." Revelation 22:12-13 -

"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6


10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea." 12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.


These are references to the Lord Jesus Christ, who is The Lord, and God our savior.


Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1


looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13



JLB

 

[JLB]

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1


looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

 

[JLB]

Brother Mike said -

1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

The Father sent His Only Begotten Son to be the Savior of the world.

He was the Son, THEN He was sent into the world.

He didn't become the Son when Mary gave Birth to Him.

God sent HIS SON to be the savior of the world.


The question I have for you is: what was The Son whom God sent, BEFORE He became flesh:

A.) An Angel

B.) God

C.) Something else


JLB

 

[Free]

I have seen no proof. Perhaps you can point me in the right direction where I might have missed something.

How many YHWHs are there? Post #1 among others.

Nope, not in post #1. Where else might such proof be?

Here are a few others verses. What do they mean to you? My understanding of the phrase "firstborn of ..." is in parenthesis.

The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel. Ex 6:14 (Reuben is an Israelite)
and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem. Ex 13:13 (the children that are redeemed are humans)
Who smote the firstborn of Egypt, both of man and beast. Psalm 135:8 (the firstborn children that died were Egyptians).

Sure, more or less agree.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:15 (Yeshua is a creature)

You can try to explain this verse away, but it stands as a witness to the fact that Yeshua is a created being, a creature.

And this is utterly false. Once again, you who stated the importance of context, are ignoring the context. Indeed, you always seem to ignore it where Jesus is concerned. Why is that?

Looking at another legitimate use of "firstborn," we have:

Exo 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son,' (ESV)

This is speaking of Israel, the nation, and it was not the first nation but rather God's chosen nation. This is seen again here:

Jer 31:9 With weeping they shall come, and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back, I will make them walk by brooks of water, in a straight path in which they shall not stumble, for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. (ESV)

And very importantly, in this messianic Psalm:

Psa 89:27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. (ESV)

All these passages are about a special relationship between God and his people, with nothing to do with any begetting. In the NT, it becomes even more clear that "firstborn" carries with it this highly significant meaning--that of preeminence. Out of the 8 times prototokos is used in the NT, all but 2 are referring to something other then being a literal firstborn human.

So we see then that in Col 1:15, within the context of preeminence that we both agree to, prototokos is referring to Jesus' preeminence over all creation. And why is that? It is immediately explained in verses 16--"For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth...all things were created through him and for him." In this way verses 15 and 16 are shown to be entirely consistent, whereas your position--where prototokos means that Jesus is a creature--is immediately contradicted by verse 16. And even despite all of that, the most you can say in your position is that prototokos refers to Jesus' birth; it says nothing about whether or not he existed prior to that birth.

Context is everything.

It is not blasphemy when rightly understands that they are those titles in their own unique way. I said the TITLES mean basically the same thing, ie; first and last. I did not say they are applied the same way.

No, there is no "own unique way." Notice that they take place in the very first and last chapters of Revelation. We have the Father and the Son claiming the same titles. This means they are claiming to mean the same thing--that both really are the first and last in exactly the same way. This is inescapable, unless you want to backtrack and state that it really was Jesus in Rev 1:8.

The Father is the first uncreated being to ever exist and He will be the last to ever exist. There are no other uncreated beings.

Correction: God is the only uncreated being.

 

[jocor]

(Post removed. Violation of promoting beliefs contrary to our Statement of Faith. Obadiah)

 

[JLB]

(Post removed. Response to deleted post. Obadiah.)

 

[jocor]

All these passages are about a special relationship between God and his people, with nothing to do with any begetting. In the NT, it becomes even more clear that "firstborn" carries with it this highly significant meaning--that of preeminence. Out of the 8 times prototokos is used in the NT, all but 2 are referring to something other then being a literal firstborn human.

So we see then that in Col 1:15, within the context of preeminence that we both agree to, prototokos is referring to Jesus' preeminence over all creation. And why is that? It is immediately explained in verses 16--"For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth...all things were created through him and for him." In this way verses 15 and 16 are shown to be entirely consistent, whereas your position--where prototokos means that Jesus is a creature--is immediately contradicted by verse 16. And even despite all of that, the most you can say in your position is that prototokos refers to Jesus' birth; it says nothing about whether or not he existed prior to that birth.

Context is everything.

It is you who are divorcing the word "firstborn" from the context. We are not dealing with just a "firstborn", but a "firstborn of every creature". Reuben is the firstborn of every Israelite. That requires him to BE an Israelite. Yeshua is the firstborn of every creature. That requires him to be a creature. Even if you want the verse to refer to a time before Adam, which it doesn't, it still means he is the firstborn of every creature.

 

[reba]

2.1: This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Please read: Statement of Faith
Statement of Faith.:
We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him.


This discussion can be taken to "one on one' to continue. Admin

 

[selihah]

Zec 2:8-11 KJV
(8)For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath He sent Me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of His eye.
(9) For, behold, I will shake Mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent Me.
(10) Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
(11) And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be My people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent Me unto thee.

The One sent is the LORD of hosts. v8, 10
The One sending is the LORD of hosts. v9

The Sent One and the One sending both have the Name LORD of hosts.

I propose that these verses are about God the Father who sent His Son, the LORD Jesus Christ.

Hello all,

I propose the verses are about the angel Zecharia was speaking to.

 

[Free]

It is you who are divorcing the word "firstborn" from the context. We are not dealing with just a "firstborn", but a "firstborn of every creature". Reuben is the firstborn of every Israelite. That requires him to BE an Israelite. Yeshua is the firstborn of every creature. That requires him to be a creature. Even if you want the verse to refer to a time before Adam, which it doesn't, it still means he is the firstborn of every creature.

No. The context is clear--"Firstborn" can, and does, mean "preeminence" or "power", without any idea of being created or literally born; verse 16 clearly states that Jesus was, in some way, involved in all of creation, which precludes him from being a creature. Verse 16 tells us precisely why Jesus is preeminent. You cannot escape that fact. My position keeps verses 15 and 16 consistent while your position makes them contradict.

 

[Free]

Hello all,

I propose the verses are about the angel Zecharia was speaking to.

Based on what, exactly?

 

[Gregg]

Zec 2:8-11 KJV
(8)For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath He sent Me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of His eye.
(9) For, behold, I will shake Mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent Me.
(10) Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
(11) And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be My people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent Me unto thee.

Hello all,

I propose the verses are about the angel Zecharia was speaking to.

Except that the One sent by the LORD of hosts (Zec 2:11) says "many nations . . . shall be My people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee,"

What angel sent from the LORD of hosts can say regarding men that they "shall be My people" or "I will dwell in the midst of thee"?


"And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth" (John 1:14 LITV).

"Righteous Father, indeed the world did not know You, but I knew You; and these have known that You sent Me" (John 17:25 LITV).

 

[Deborah13]

jocor
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile the all things to himself--having made peace through the blood of his cross--through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.
Col 1:21 And you--once being alienated, and enemies in the mind, in the evil works, yet now did he reconcile,
Col 1:22 in the body of his flesh through the death, to present you holy, and unblemished, and unblameable before himself,

2Co 5:18 And the all things are of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and did give to us the ministration of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,

Heb 9:26 since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;

 

[Deborah13]

jocor

Moses did not see an angel..
YLT

Exo 33:21 Jehovah also saith, `Lo, a place is by Me, and thou hast stood on the rock,
Exo 33:22 and it hath come to pass, in the passing by of Mine honour, that I have set thee in a cleft of the rock, and spread out My hands over thee, until My passing by,
Exo 33:23 and I have turned aside My hands, and thou hast seen My back parts, and My face is not seen.'
Heb 11:27 by faith he left Egypt behind, not having been afraid of the wrath of the king, for, as seeing the Invisible One--he endured;

And that Rock in the wilderness.....

Psa 19:14 Let the sayings of my mouth, And the meditation of my heart, Be for a pleasing thing before Thee, O Jehovah, my rock, and my redeemer!
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid, Have I not from that time caused thee to hear, and declared? And ye are My witnesses, Is there a God besides Me? yea, there is none, A Rock I have not known.
Hab 1:12 Art not Thou of old, O Jehovah, my God, my Holy One? We do not die, O Jehovah, For judgment Thou hast appointed it, And, O Rock, for reproof Thou hast founded it.
1Co 10:2 and all to Moses were baptized in the cloud, and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 and all the same spiritual food did eat,
1Co 10:4 and all the same spiritual drink did drink, for they were drinking of a spiritual rock following them, and the rock was the Christ;

 

[jocor]

jocor
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile the all things to himself--having made peace through the blood of his cross--through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.
Col 1:21 And you--once being alienated, and enemies in the mind, in the evil works, yet now did he reconcile,
Col 1:22 in the body of his flesh through the death, to present you holy, and unblemished, and unblameable before himself,

2Co 5:18 And the all things are of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and did give to us the ministration of the reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,

Heb 9:26 since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;

(Edited, ToS 2.1, arguing against the basic tenants of our Statement of Faith. Obadiah)

 

[Gregg]

(Post removed. Response to deleted post. Obadiah.)