Bible Study Is the Rapture Doctrine a tool of deception?

[Drew]

A general principle: we need to carefully interpret Biblical texts in the broader, overall Scriptural context, if not the relevant cultural context as well.

Of immediate relevance is the "coming on the clouds" image: One gets things bass ackwards if one comes to this text already accepting the rapture doctrine (for no defensible reason other than that it is part of the "package" of beliefs we often uncritically absorb) and then see this image as endorsing the rapture view. Here is the better way: See how the Old Testament uses this image and honour that view when interpreting its use in the New Testament. And in Daniel 7, the "coming on the clouds" image is decidedly an image of upward movement in vindication, not downward as in "return of Jesus to rapture the church.

 

[jasonc]

I must learn Hebrew. I bet that has some interesting views in the Hebrew.

 

[JLB]

It says what it says. But it need not necessarily be read as a statement about believers being physically transported to heaven.

It doesn't say transported to heaven.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:17

The phrase is caught up in the air...

That is where we will all go, whether the dead in Christ, or those who are alive and remain, we will be caught up in the air... Together with Him on His way down from Heaven to the mount of Olives.

We will forever be with the Lord.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The revealing of the man of sin must come before the Day of Christ.
2Th_2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Seems to me Jesus is speak here of Judas..

Sorry Reba, 2 Thessalonians 2 was written well after Judas had died.


JLB

 

[reba]

So?

I wrote ( so?) then when i clicked the post button it looked snarky No intent to be snarky...Most all the NT was written after His Sacrifice

 

[JLB]

So?

I wrote ( so?) then when i clicked the post button it looked snarky No intent to be snarky...Most all the NT was written after His Sacrifice

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 says the Day of Christ and our gathering unto Him won't happen until there is an apostasy and the man of sin is revealed by sitting in the Temple of God, presenting himself as God.

This man of sin, son of perdition, this lawless one will be personally destroyed by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

The brightness of His coming will destroy this son of perdition.

Hope this clears up the confusion from listening to the teachings of preterist's.


JLB

 

[reba]

LOL nice slip in there JLB..

That is not going to change my thoughts... but a nice try.. .

 

[reba]

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
So you are going to be always in the air with the Lord? right ..

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

LOL nice slip in there JLB..

That is not going to change my thoughts... but a nice try.. .

Some people sure are stubborn around here.
I'm glad I'm not one of them.

 

[jasonc]

Man I have pondered thus for a while.I'm not post mil.nor a dominionist.america and Canada being of the Plymouth bay colonial origins were founded or Canada influenced by the puritan's who were post mil dominionist.I would say the wicked are removed not the righteous

 

[reba]

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You're a nice girl.
I like you.

 

[turnorburn]

II Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The mystery of iniquity was already at work when this was written, it was working through the Roman system, when the last Caesar took the throne and the empire fell the system was taken out of the way. Now its been replaced by the new holy Roman empire, the same system only the players are wearing different robes. If you think this is far afield then you need to read this..

http://biblebelievers.com/foxes/findex.htm

tob

 

[JLB]

LOL nice slip in there JLB..

That is not going to change my thoughts... but a nice try.. .

Are you saying you don't believe the brightness of the Lord's coming will destroy the son of perdition, according to 2 Thessalonians.

Look it says it right there -

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

...destroy with the brightness of His Coming.


JLB

 

[reba]

nope i did not say anything of the sort... some times you can really jump very high to come to a conclusion

 

[Brother Mike]

He also wrote:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, (ESV)


I don't see how you can get that from the text nor can I find any who agree with either your understanding of it or your definition of apostasia. Several translations use "rebellion," which makes sense as it seems connected to "the man of lawlessness" being revealed.

Looking at the context:

2Th 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,
2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, (ESV)

If we look at what the bolded and underlined portions tells us, it seems that apostasia cannot at all be referring to being gathered to the Lord, since that gathering won't happen until after the apostasia occurs.

Some will depart from faith, and will continue to do so. If waiting for some to depart from faith is the case, then the Son of Perdition has come and gone. That makes you a Preterist. The Church will not depart from Faith, and it will be Strong in the End. What leaves is not considered part of the Church anyway.

Apostasia made up of two Greek Words. apo and histasthai .

Histasthai means to stand.
Apo means to depart or move away from.

apostasion Means to divorce from, separate.

Both denote a physical action, unlike the Verb Parapipto which is a Mental, spiritual action Verb (Not Physical) to fall from truth or the English Apostasy.

There is nothing in Apostasia in any of it's root meanings that mean to leave the truth, or go in Error. You have to make that up so it says what you want it to say. It's not in the Greek though at all.

So, Looking at the context of how the Greek Female noun is used.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means,except there come a falling away first (Physical departure from), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(2Th 2:1-3)

As you can see, the subject is being gathered together, and the departure must come first, then the Son of perdition is revealed. The Subject of the whole chapter is the coming of the Lord Jesus, the departure, and what the Son of Perdition will be doing.

Even if Apostasia being a Greek Female noun meant leaving the truth, then it would target the following Greek Title of the Son of Perdition.
Meaning, many will leave the Son of Perditions Truth as that is How Greek Female nouns are used.

In this case the Article is used and the known subject of Jesus coming and Leaving with Him, we know what depart from means.

If You want the Real Greek meanings and not the dictionary on how folks think they might be used, then use the Strongs Word Studies.

646apostasía (from 868/aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from575/apó, "away from" and 2476/histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previousstanding."

It means leaving a place once stood, and a Greek Female noun can not determine what it left unless it's followed by the Male noun or in the Article as being understood.

Mike,
your use of the word apostasia is very unconvincing.
I can't find anything anywhere that agrees with you.
You have to do better than that.

If Strongs won't above, and me breaking down the Root of the Word, and pointing out that A Greek Female noun can't be read the way Post tribbers want to read it and change the language, then You won't be convinced as your smarter than me or Strongs.

Mike.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Some will depart from faith, and will continue to do so. If waiting for some to depart from faith is the case, then the Son of Perdition has come and gone. That makes you a Preterist. The Church will not depart from Faith, and it will be Strong in the End. What leaves is not considered part of the Church anyway.

Apostasia made up of two Greek Words. apo and histasthai .

Histasthai means to stand.
Apo means to depart or move away from.

apostasion Means to divorce from, separate.

Both denote a physical action, unlike the Verb Parapipto which is a Mental, spiritual action Verb (Not Physical) to fall from truth or the English Apostasy.

There is nothing in Apostasia in any of it's root meanings that mean to leave the truth, or go in Error. You have to make that up so it says what you want it to say. It's not in the Greek though at all.

So, Looking at the context of how the Greek Female noun is used.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means,except there come a falling away first (Physical departure from), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(2Th 2:1-3)

As you can see, the subject is being gathered together, and the departure must come first, then the Son of perdition is revealed. The Subject of the whole chapter is the coming of the Lord Jesus, the departure, and what the Son of Perdition will be doing.

Even if Apostasia being a Greek Female noun meant leaving the truth, then it would target the following Greek Title of the Son of Perdition.
Meaning, many will leave the Son of Perditions Truth as that is How Greek Female nouns are used.

In this case the Article is used and the known subject of Jesus coming and Leaving with Him, we know what depart from means.

If You want the Real Greek meanings and not the dictionary on how folks think they might be used, then use the Strongs Word Studies.

646apostasía (from 868/aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from575/apó, "away from" and 2476/histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previousstanding."

It means leaving a place once stood, and a Greek Female noun can not determine what it left unless it's followed by the Male noun or in the Article as being understood.



If Strongs won't above, and me breaking down the Root of the Word, and pointing out that A Greek Female noun can't be read the way Post tribbers want to read it and change the language, then You won't be convinced as your smarter than me or Strongs.

Mike.

I might be smarter than Strongs but I could never be smarter than you Mike.
So everything you say from now on, I'm going to believe it.

 

[JLB]

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means,except there come a falling away first (Physical departure from), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(2Th 2:1-3)

Falling away from the faith.

That's what this word means.

The man of sin comes first...

The Church will not depart from Faith, and it will be Strong in the End. What leaves is not considered part of the Church anyway.

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed..,

Clearly the Day of Christ will not come unless the man of sin is revealed first.

This man of sin will be destroyed by Jesus Himself, when He comes.

First comes the man of sin who is revealed when he goes to the Temple, proclaiming himself as God by working lying signs and wonders.

Then when the Lord Jesus returns, He will destroy Him by the brightness of Hos coming.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8

The brightness of His coming (parousia) destroys the man of sin.

His parousia (coming) will not be invisible but actually be BRIGHT, so bright in fact that it will destroy the man of sin.

How can His Coming (parousia) occur before the man of sin is revealed?????


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Falling away from the faith.

That's what this word means.

The man of sin comes first...


Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed..,

Clearly the Day of Christ will not come unless the man of sin is revealed first.

This man of sin will be destroyed by Jesus Himself, when He comes.

First comes the man of sin who is revealed when he goes to the Temple, proclaiming himself as God by working lying signs and wonders.

Then when the Lord Jesus returns, He will destroy Him by the brightness of Hos coming.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8

The brightness of His coming (parousia) destroys the man of sin.

His parousia (coming) will not be invisible but actually be BRIGHT, so bright in fact that it will destroy the man of sin.

How can His Coming (parousia) occur before the man of sin is revealed?????


JLB

How the heck can it mean fall away from faith.

Paul said, there will be a falling away first. Apostasia.

Falling away from what JLB? Its a Greek Female Noun that means depart from where stood. I even gave you the Strong word Study on what the Word is made up of, and what it means. There is nothing in the Word that means fall away from truth, or faith. ZERO.

Paul also did not say in those anything about falling away from what. Like Free, you make that up and say it's falling away from faith, but that is not even in the scripture either.

We are being gathered by the Lord Jesus, we are departing with Him, so Paul used the Correct Word Apostasia, which means to depart physically from where someone once stood.


Look at this Verse
If they shall fall away, parapiptō to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Heb 6:6)

Here we have the Verb Parapipto, which means to spiritually go aside into error. We are even told we can't renew them again to repentance. Parapipto is the Word you need in Thess to make it say what you want it to say, not a Female noun.

I gave you the strongs Definition. I broke the Word down, I told you who we are departing with. When you don't translate properly and ignore Greek Words you can make it say whatever you want. This is the same thought pattern of those who tell people there is no Eternal punishment. It's twisting scriptures, and thinking the Holy Spirit is using wrong words.

Aionios some have twisted to their own destruction, saying it's not a Greek Adjective, but means the Same as the Noun Aion. They remove hell to their own hurt.

Don't be like them, if the Holy Spirit meant Parapipto which means Apostasy, then the Holy Spirit would have used the Verb. Paul does not say falling away from what, you have to add to scriptures saying that means away from faith, and it's not even in there.

If Paul said that day won't come, until many depart from Jesus, then you have Apostasia, and you have what it departs from. Paul did not say that though.

Geneva 1587
Nowe we beseech you, brethren, by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ, and by our assembling vnto him,
(2Th 2:1)
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
(2Th 2:3)

We are assembled unto Him, and depart first then the Son of Perdition is revealed. Why?

And nowe ye knowe what withholdeth that he might be reueiled in his time. For the mysterie of iniquitie doeth already worke: onely he which nowe withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked man be reueiled, whome the Lorde shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall abolish with the brightnes of his comming,
(2Th 2:6-8)

The Lord has to remove his Body, "BEFORE" the wicked one can be revealed. The Church can not be here, for Satan to operate at full capacity, and no restraint. We being here are the Light of the World, and where sin abounds, Grace abounds more until the Light is removed.

We are not here.

Mike.

 

[Brother Mike]

I might be smarter than Strongs but I could never be smarter than you Mike.
So everything you say from now on, I'm going to believe it.

Watch more Sesame Street. It's how I got to the place where I am at. You can get there someday. Big Bird has Answers, I am telling you.