Bible Study Is the Rapture Doctrine a tool of deception?

[Drew]

i hope he's kidding, but I'm not laughing...

tob

Care to address the argument in posts 52 to 54?

No one has addressed it so far. I wonder why.

 

[Drew]

I have little doubt that those of you who ridicule the Biblical argument that the "coming on the clouds" image is metaphorical - and of course you have not dealt with the actual argument (par for the course in this forum, naturally) also believe that talk of "earthquakes and stars falling from the sky" is also literal.

Again, the Biblical precedent shows otherwise. Throughout the Old Testament, such images are used to denote political upheaval, not real earthquakes and cosmic catastrophes.

But people do not know their Bibles.

 

[turnorburn]

I have little doubt that those of you who ridicule the Biblical argument that the "coming on the clouds" image is metaphorical - and of course you have not dealt with the actual argument (par for the course in this forum, naturally) also believe that talk of "earthquakes and stars falling from the sky" is also literal.

Again, the Biblical precedent shows otherwise. Throughout the Old Testament, such images are used to denote political upheaval, not real earthquakes and cosmic catastrophes.

But people do not know their Bibles.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

tob

 

[turnorburn]

It says what it says. But it need not necessarily be read as a statement about believers being physically transported to heaven.
Here is the first of a three part post, providing the arguments against rapture theology as provided by English theologian NT Wright:

The American obsession with the second coming of Jesus — especially with distorted interpretations of it — continues unabated. Seen from my side of the Atlantic, the phenomenal success of the Left Behind books appears puzzling, even bizarre[1]. Few in the U.K. hold the belief on which the popular series of novels is based: that there will be a literal “rapture” in which believers will be snatched up to heaven, leaving empty cars crashing on freeways and kids coming home from school only to find that their parents have been taken to be with Jesus while they have been “left behind.” This pseudo-theological version of Home Alone has reportedly frightened many children into some kind of (distorted) faith.

This dramatic end-time scenario is based (wrongly, as we shall see) on Paul’s First Letter to the Thessalonians, where he writes: “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
What on earth (or in heaven) did Paul mean?

....stand by for more.

There is nothing too difficult for the Lord, remember Elijah?

II Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

tob

 

[turnorburn]

The revealing of the man of sin must come before the Day of Christ.
2Th_2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Seems to me Jesus is speak here of Judas..

He's been revealed reba i seriously doubt that even Judas would have made Mary the queen of heaven..

tob

 

[Drew]

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

tob

Perhaps there is some confusion. I never intended to say that all references to clouds were metaphorical. I am quite confident the one in 1 Thess is metaphorical as is the one when Jesus talks to Caiaphus.

Let me be clear: While I do not believe the Scriptures teach a rapture, I believe they do teach a physical 2nd coming.

 

[smaller]

That is not what I asked. Again:

Jesus tells Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will see Jesus "coming on the clouds". Do you believe that Caiaphus will look out of the window and see Jesus riding on a cloud?

A simple yes or no will be great.

Drew will look at this scripture and see just Judas:

Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

and he will look at this scripture and just see Peter:

Matthew 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

And he will likewise look at Caiaphus and NEVER see this: Mark 4:15

 

[Brother Mike]

The man of sin will come first and be revealed by presenting himself as God in the Temple, then after he has deceived and persuaded the masses to follow him as the messiah through lying signs and wonders, he will be destroyed by the brightness of the Coming [parousia] of the Lord Jesus.

The Coming of the Lord happens after the man of sin is revealed.

Anytime you see the word coming [parousia] of the Lord it is associated withAFTER the man of sin is revealed,because it is the brightness of His Coming [parousia] that destroys the man of sin.

Coming [parousia] of the Lord = after the man of sin is revealed

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

Nowe we beseech you, brethren, by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ, and by our assembling vnto him, That ye be not suddenly mooued from your minde, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by worde, nor by letter, as it were from vs, as though the day of Christ were at hand. Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition, Which is an aduersarie, and exalteth him selfe against all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he doeth sit as God in the Temple of God, shewing him selfe that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I tolde you these things? And nowe ye knowe what withholdeth that he might be reueiled in his time. For the mysterie of iniquitie doeth already worke: onely he which nowe withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked man be reueiled, whome the Lorde shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall abolish with the brightnes of his comming,
(2Th 2:1-8)

Your lumping these into "ONE" coming but it clearly shows two.

First, we are gathered, the Mystery of Iniquity is at work as where sin abounds, grace abounds more, we are removed, holding back the Son of Perdition being revealed in His time. There is no abolishing, or destorying when the Lord gathers us. In Rev 19 after the 7th seal of 1/2 hour of silence, we all go with the Lord.

We must leave first, then the Son of Perdition is revealed, we don't hang around Jesus comes then Jesus comes again to destroy him. The Church is the only barrier between Satan operating without hindrance of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We have to be removed, then we come with him. Otherwise, you get sucked up, then you get dropped on earth again and that don't make sense, because there is no Rapture event mentioned or Resurrection event mentioned when He comes he 2nd time.

I am not kidding, of course. I have provided the argument for my view in posts 52 to 54, with post 54 addressing the "in the air" bit. Please address it.

The Bible contains both literal truth and metaphor - this appears to surprise you? Why?

Well, the Word is True always or not True. Not both True and metaphor, or True and Not true. Not true and symbolic. All True, 100%

If the Word says the Stars get rolled up and vanish, it will happen.
If the Word says God will melt this planet with fervent Heat, It is coming to pass.
If the Word says The sun will go dark and no longer give light, It's on the way.

Sad though, 12K post and it came to this. Mark Drew off the list of those to take serious. My list is getting longer.

Mike.

 

[Drew]

Brother Mike, no rational person believes that when the bible says the mountains will clap their hands, this will literally happen.

The Bible is full of metaphor.

 

[turnorburn]

Perhaps there is some confusion. I never intended to say that all references to clouds were metaphorical. I am quite confident the one in 1 Thess is metaphorical as is the one when Jesus talks to Caiaphus.

Let me be clear: While I do not believe the Scriptures teach a rapture, I believe they do teach a physical 2nd coming.

Here's another from..

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

tob

 

[JLB]

I am not kidding, of course. I have provided the argument for my view in posts 52 to 54, with post 54 addressing the "in the air" bit. Please address it.

The Bible contains both literal truth and metaphor - this appears to surprise you? Why?

Ignoring what I posted and the clear literal scriptures about the literal coming of the Lord and the literal resurrection of the dead in Christ and the literal catching up of those who are alive and remain in the same sentence only shows how short sided your theory is brother.


Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:17

You would have to explain how the resurrection is literal but the catching up of those who are alive is symbolic in the same sentence..,,when it clearly says the resurrected ones and those who are alive will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER.

JLB

 

[Drew]

Here's another from..

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

tob

It's not at all clear to me that this is about the second coming. I will do the research, but I believe the verb translated as "coming" is really more a verb about being installed as a king. And that happened 2000 years ago. But it does not really matter. There is a case to be made that the 1 Thess text reference to being "caught up in the air" may indeed be metaphorical.

 

[Drew]

Ignoring what I posted and the clear literal scriptures about the literal coming of the Lord and the literal resurrection of the dead in Christ and the literal catching up of those who are alive and remain in the same sentence only shows how short sided your theory is brother.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:17

You are evading the challenge: you cannot, legitimately anyway, keep simply reposting the words that we ALL agree are there. The whole point is whether they are to be taken literally. Here is a text from the Old Testament:

You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands. [Isaiah 55:12, NIV]

Will the mountains and hills literally sing? A simple yes or no, please.
Will the trees clap their hands? A simple yes or no, please.

There is simply no doubt: much Scripture is metaphor. You cannot simply assume that the "caught up in the air" allusion is to be taken literally.

You would have to explain how the resurrection is literal but the catching up of those who are alive is symbolic in the same sentence..,,when it clearly says the resurrected ones and those who are alive will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER.

This is perfectly easy to explain. Consider this sentence:

"Joe Blow's wife left and he is in hell."

Joe Blow's wife literally left him, but Joe Blow is only metaphorically in Hell.

Lets' remember: for 1800 years, the church did not buy into the rapture doctrine. Do you suppose they are all as dense as you are implying I am?

 

[n2thelight]

The Rapture can not be separated from the Resurrection, as this is one event that takes place when the Lord comes.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:17-18

Those on earth will be joined with those who return with Him from heaven.

All the Lord's people will be together with Him, in the air as He returns to Jerusalem.

This is the Day of the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 5:1

We all are looking forward to His appearing and being united with our loved ones.

On this I hope we all can agree.

It will be a Day of rejoicing, when we all have new sinless bodies, at the resurrection and rapture.


God bless you all, as we look forward to that great Day.


JLB

The resurrection happens at death,your answer is on the above verse you quoted...How can they come with Him,if they are not already there?

 

[n2thelight]

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is [the Lord is just] at hand."

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.
The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].
What did Paul say again?
Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first.

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

"Satan claiming to be God" is the abomination, and "he" [Satan] is the desolator, for the entire world will believe him; except for God's elect, and all those who have the seal of God in their minds [foreheads]. The sealed of God have their gospel armor on, and they are ready to face Satan and his system in the spiritual warfare.

II Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness [deceit] of unrighteousness in [for] them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,"

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion [send them a working of error], that they should a lie;"

Now,who will satan deceive if the Church is gone?Unbelievers are already deceived,and he has them anyway....

Also,why do we need the Gosple Armour,if we are not going to be here?

satan is going after the Church,plain and simple,and he can't do that if we're not here?

 

[JLB]

You are evading the challenge: you cannot, legitimately anyway, keep simply reposting the words that we ALL agree are there. The whole point is whether they are to be taken literally. Here is a text from the Old Testament:

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

This verse points three distinct things.

• The literal coming (Parousia) of the Lord Jesus, in which the literal brightness of His power and Glory will destroy the false christ, who is call the man of sin, the son of perdition and the lawless one.

• The literal resurrection of the dead in Christ.

• Now the third thing mentioned, the catching up of those who are alive, in context and in the same verse and in the same sentence, you would have us believe is "metaphorical"?

What brings you to this conclusion that Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, is teaching unlearned Gentiles about the literal coming of the Lord and the literal resurrection of the dead, but then those who are alive at the coming of the Lord are somehow excluded from being transformed by having a glorious body like Jesus, and being with Him, when He comes?

How do you come to this conclusion that Paul would just switch in the middle of his teaching about the coming of the Lord and describing our "Gathering" unto Him, to be half literal and half metaphorical?

Please explain.

The scripture says... We who are alive and remain will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air and WE WILL ALWAYS BE WITH THE LORD...

If the Lord is in the air, then we will be in the air. If the Lord is on earth then we will be with the Lord on earth.

There isn't a single "metaphorical" phrase in all of 1 Thessalonians 4!


JLB

 

[reba]

This thread is loosing footing in this forum.. Lets remember this is Bible Study not End Times.

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

 

[Drew]

Now the third thing mentioned, the catching up of those who are alive, in context and in the same verse and in the same sentence, you would have us believe is "metaphorical"?

First, there is no particular reason why a writer would not combine literal truth with metaphor in the same sentence - it happens all the time, yet you seem to think that such a combination cannot work in this particular context. Fair enough, we can get into the details later.

Second, and more importantly, I have already provided an argument - at least at a high level - about this and, as I frankly expected, no one dealt with it. Here is the relevant piece again:

Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.

Now perhaps you have legitimate questions about how the person who wrote this reached his conclusion. But at least deal with it, please.

What brings you to this conclusion that Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, is teaching unlearned Gentiles about the literal coming of the Lord and the literal resurrection of the dead, but then those who are alive at the coming of the Lord are somehow excluded from being transformed by having a glorious body like Jesus, and being with Him, when He comes?

I never denied the transformation, I have simply denied the rapture bit.

 

[Drew]

There isn't a single "metaphorical" phrase in all of 1 Thessalonians 4!JLB

What is your response to the following. I cannot, at the moment give the credentials for the source but I am confident that highly respected New Testament scholar has this same view:

• Meet the Lord in the air means two opposing armies who meet in the middle of a battlefield to discuss terms. Meeting in the air was also a way to say dignitaries are here (which was a great honor), from a city and are meeting with emissaries from another city to escort them to a meeting. Sometimes this meant meeting halfway, like diplomats or generals of opposing armies at a village as a neutral zone. This also meant gathering people to join and/or meet. Here, it is with Jesus when He comes back as a “royal coming” (Matt. 24:27-31; Acts 17:7).Rapture is the Latin rendering of the Greek word “harpazo.” The Latin rendering of “raptus” is where we get the word rapture. It is not from the Bible. This does not mean we get to fly up into the air; we may, but the passage and the others people use to support this theory in the contexts clearly states otherwise.

Now: in a proper study, you cannot simply ignore this, or baldly deny it. You should deal with it - show how it is mistaken, since you have claimed there is no metaphor in 1 Thess.

And for my part, I would need to provide some additional historical evidence to substantiate this argument that the bit about "meeting the Lord in the air" is a metaphor in common use in 1st century Palestine.

This a "Bible Study". Let's agree to do what we have to do to properly study: deal with other poster's argument and provide actual substantive arguments for the positions we believe to be correct.

 

[jasonc]

You are evading the challenge: you cannot, legitimately anyway, keep simply reposting the words that we ALL agree are there. The whole point is whether they are to be taken literally. Here is a text from the Old Testament:

You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands. [Isaiah 55:12, NIV]


Will the mountains and hills literally sing? A simple yes or no, please.
Will the trees clap their hands? A simple yes or no, please.

There is simply no doubt: much Scripture is metaphor. You cannot simply assume that the "caught up in the air" allusion is to be taken literally.


This is perfectly easy to explain. Consider this sentence:

"Joe Blow's wife left and he is in hell."

Joe Blow's wife literally left him, but Joe Blow is only metaphorically in Hell.

Lets' remember: for 1800 years, the church did not buy into the rapture doctrine. Do you suppose they are all as dense as you are implying I am?

Uhm have read the oldest commentaries? The early church did.amil is a idea I hold but in Justin martyrs day that is a minority.