Is Baptism an Ordinance or Command?

[stovebolts]

I make sure everything is backed up by scripture. Not often is it my own interpretation. Scripture has to fit with scripture. But I post scriptures and people still don't believe it because they follow doctrine not the truth. That is why there is thousands of doctrines out there and debate. People follow doctrine not Christ.

I understand exactly what your saying.
The way I see it, we can all be like Saul and misunderstand scripture. Saul knew scriptures and he was very zealous for God. So much that he murdered those who followed what he considered a false messiah.

Neither you nor I are any different than Saul in that sense. Yes, we've had our encounter with God, and we have the Holy Spirit, but so did Peter when Paul had to set him straight.

What I'm saying is none of us understand all of scripture perfectly, and so we should build each other up rather than causing issues with our brothers on disputable matters.

And yes, every one comes to scripture with a bias.

 

[stovebolts]

I agree SB. We must do all things in love. I will never tell someone they are not apart of the body of Christ unless I know they are truly outside of it. I see what goes on around here, and what has happened to me, enough times to understand that taken too far a person becomes 'puffed up'.

In that, I am sure of the faith and will always contend for it when I see great error - even when I see small error. Paul did the same and Jude urged us to also. There is a difference between preaching the Gospel and preaching error in the faith.

The thing with our friend here, is that his thoughts are outside of what the faith is. I cannot say that it means he is without Christ - I have no knowledge of that. But to say that all mankind will be saved - regardless of if they have faith - is not only against the faith, it is misrepresenting God's justice.

God sacrificed His only Son. His only perfect Son. He did not do it so that mankind could do what they want - and end up with eternal life in the end. I cannot even begin to imagine the pain and suffering, not physical, but emotional, that Christ went through on the cross when the Father had to turn His back on Jesus. For what? So that we would know and believe.

Universalism goes beyond just being 'weird'. Were not talking about the color of the carpet, or the songs we sing - we are talking about the centrality of the Christian faith - Christs death on the cross, His resurrection, and His coming again. Outside of those faith issues I am a 'whatever' kind of guy.

I understand, because you sound almost exactly like I did 15 years ago. Search this forum for my posts around 2003 or so and you'll see.

What if by Gods grace that all eventually went to heaven was true? I'm sure you would feel much like the eldest son from the prodigal son.

It's not up to you or I who goes to heaven, but we should understand that we will only be there by Gods grace.

So whatever you believe, it's between you and God.

Let me ask you this. If I said I believed in universalism, would you question my salvation? Would you fear for my soul? How would you view me?

 

[Corn Pop]

When Christ said the path is narrow and few find it, I believe he was talking about the Truth and the full revelation, not who is saved like some may believe.

Even in revelation there was a number so big standing before the throne praising God no man could even number it, they all come out of the tribulation.

And also scripture clearly says Christ took away the sin of the world and God does not judge. Christ took away the Sin and nailed the ordinances that were against us through the Law to the cross as scripture clearly says, so, we can come to a firm conclusion that there is no law and sin that anyone can be judged against and the Judge is powerless.

Christ cannot even judge because he took away the sin of the world and the ordinances against all man. Praise the Lord.

 

[Corn Pop]

Who do people think is judging them?. Its not God. Only satan accuses. Christ took away the ordinances that were against man through the Law and nailed them to his cross and took away the sin of the world, sin was in the world before the Law was given and that through his death he might break the power of the devil.

The judge is powerless ladies and gentleman. The court room is empty, its just full of cobwebs to all who believe In Christ and his works.

Praise the Lord ladies and gentleman.

Christ has been given all authority and judgement, but Christ wont judge on anything because he fullfilled all for all and there is no transgression of the law or sin to judge against. Praise the Lord ladies and gentleman.

The judge is powerless. The court room is empty.

 

[Corn Pop]

John 17

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

God gave Christ authority over all flesh and Christ gives eternal life to all those the Father have given him, so thats...All flesh.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Wisdom is greater than knowledge. Your free and have no God who is a ruler or judge over you. Christ does not judge or rule over anyone.

Look at Christs temptation in the wilderness and did not sell his soul to gain the world, now think what people do with Christ. They sell there soul in the hope of gaining the world.

Christ does not want to rule over anyone. Its all about dwelling all and all in love and harmony.

Many might see it as crooked because I dont believe God judges or rules over anyone and believers at the moment should live in love and peace under that spiritual law. Even the world now is still completely crooked and insane.

 

[eddif]

The confusion is not uncommon. I assure you of that. I was confused about it for a long time and it became the turning point in my life when I realized that when we honestly seek God's truth, He will give it.

You may or may not want to hear this, but in order to understand it you have to get into the original language. The word for baptizing has two meanings. They both have to do with making pickles. yum

One meaning is to dunk the cucumber into a water mixture and then remove it(cleaning it/shocking it). The other meaning is to dunk the cucumber into the mixture and leave it(making it a pickle/transforming it).

When Jesus and the disciples talk about being baptized into a "name", they are talking about being made a pickle. When they talk about being baptized in water, they are talking about just cleaning it. See the difference? If they meant to make a pickle with someone in the water - that would be bad. And, just cleaning someone in the name of Jesus - has no lasting effect - it does not change the person.

We want to become Jesus pickles. So, to be baptized into the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit - means to be fully transformed by God's power by being fully understanding of who God is. That - being made a pickle - is definitely essential to 'becoming' a Christian. Think about it, just dunking a cucumber into a bottle of vinegar and then eating it is not the same as a cucumber, that has been made a pickle by the immersion of the cucumber, and the transforming power of the vinegar.

The same is true with us. We cannot be 'made' into a Christian by dunking our bodies in physical water. But we can by being immersed into Christ, and being transformed by His power.

To answer your question, baptism in water - good ordinance to do, which shows the transformation taking place Spiritually.

Baptism in the Godhead, absolute necessity in order to fully become a Christian.

You reckon 1/4 of those reading your statements got it?

I will start through the thread and find out. In the meantime I will make a couple of comments, and see if they turn out to be true.

Cucumbers tend to rot easily.
You need to realize this (confession of sins) - John's baptism

There is a way to preserve cucumbers. Jesus is the process to take care of the tendency toward eternal decay. The baptism into Christ Jesus.

The good news about preserving cucumbers (saving man's headlong rush into sin) can only be done with the baptism of the Holy Spirit (the quickening spirit Jesus became).

Pickles yes I see pickels.
Good job.

Repentance - Father
Accept the work of Jesus - Son
Receive power to be a witness - Holy Spirit

We may even get to fire.

Rednecks think strangely.
eddif

 

[eddif]

It seems the thread title question was just ignored.

The pickle post gets real close to the answer.

What is an ordinance?
What is a commandment?
How are they the same?
How are they different?
How do they relate to us today?

I know rednecks are supposed to go hoe the garden and leave the theology to the intelligent.

eddif

 

[Corn Pop]

There is no difference between a ordinance, rule, commandment, law.

 

[eddif]

Ephesians 2:15 KJV
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Dealing with the law as a schoolmaster requires the Holy Spirit to convince us of sin, righteousness and judgement. There are similarities and differences.

Anyone want to open Ephesians 2:15 KJV

The Jew and Gentile being joined requires some understanding.

All this is tied to the original title / OP.

Others comments.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Hebrews 9:25 KJV
Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

It may appear that judgement is put off, but it is for sure on the way.

eddif

 

[Corn Pop]

That doesn't make sence.

"but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin"

Judgement on the way?. No sin to judge against. Thats belief in his works.

 

[Corn Pop]

You forgot the rest of scripture to get the right context. I dont see judgement, only on Christ.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."


Jesus talking to the Father.

"As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."

 

[eddif]

II Corinthians 5:8 KJV
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

And in other scriptures you find some thinking they had done well, only to face hell. Is your name written in the lambs book of life (everyone)?

eddif

 

[Nathan]

I understand, because you sound almost exactly like I did 15 years ago. Search this forum for my posts around 2003 or so and you'll see.

What if by Gods grace that all eventually went to heaven was true? I'm sure you would feel much like the eldest son from the prodigal son.

It's not up to you or I who goes to heaven, but we should understand that we will only be there by Gods grace.

So whatever you believe, it's between you and God.

Let me ask you this. If I said I believed in universalism, would you question my salvation? Would you fear for my soul? How would you view me?

I hope I don't come across as judging a persons soul. That is not my intention.

I don't question a persons salvation at all. Not yours or anyone else's that believes in Christ.

If you believed in Universalism then I would view you the same as I do him. It's a false belief and is contrary to the entire Bible. How can you view something as true if you believe most of it is false? How does that come across to those just starting to grow in Christ?

 

[eddif]

Daniel 12:2 KJV
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame andeverlasting contempt.

eddif

 

[eddif]

[QUOTE="eddif, post: 1315458, member:
Ephesians 2:15 KJV
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;[/QUOTE]
This is the scripture I posted earlier.

An old covenant ordinance is like a parable. Contained in the ordinance is a hidden truth that is hidden out of the context of the commandment.

Thou shall not muzzle an ox that is treading out the corn (from memory), is not ultimately about the ox or corn.
I Corinthians 9:9 helps us with the concept. The oxen becomes paying the preacher.

Paying the preacher is the commandment hidden in an ordinance of the ox IMHO. Straighten me out with scripture if I am wrong.

So the sacrifices of the law point to the sacrifice of himself for our sins (Jesus).

The physical washings of the law point to the baptism of John.

So now we get to the OP title.
Is baptism an ordinance or commandment?

Which is the reality, and which is the reality that cast the shadow.

Food, drink, holy days, sabbaths are but a shadow of things to come (realities revealed in the new covenant). Jesus cast the shadows)

So:

Is water baptism the reality, or is the inner belief the reality?

The preacher is the reality that cast a shadow ox.

Sounds a lot like a confused redneck to some. We must always look for truth beyond the physical. (Jewish Midrash?)
(Gentile Metaphysics?).

eddif

 

[stovebolts]

If you believed in Universalism then I would view you the same as I do him. It's a false belief and is contrary to the entire Bible. How can you view something as true if you believe most of it is false? How does that come across to those just starting to grow in Christ?

This isn't so much what either of us believes, but rather how we view each other, and how we treat each other. This idea extends well beyond this subject.

You can't view something as true, if you view most of it is false. And there is the crux of the issue isn't it? What happens when 2 people get together to teac each other the correct view? Is it possible attitudes and pride could get in the way? Do you think bad thoughts of the other could arise?

To those early in their walk with Christ, it is God who causes the increase... and we ought to teach them by our own example how to show love toward each other.

Unity isn't uniformity and look at the hatred within the body of Christ. Even non Christians see our hypocrisy, so why can't we? Or do we justify our behavior which makes it alright?

 

[Nathan]

This isn't so much what either of us believes, but rather how we view each other, and how we treat each other. This idea extends well beyond this subject.

You can't view something as true, if you view most of it is false. And there is the crux of the issue isn't it? What happens when 2 people get together to teac each other the correct view? Is it possible attitudes and pride could get in the way? Do you think bad thoughts of the other could arise?

To those early in their walk with Christ, it is God who causes the increase... and we ought to teach them by our own example how to show love toward each other.

Unity isn't uniformity and look at the hatred within the body of Christ. Even non Christians see our hypocrisy, so why can't we? Or do we justify our behavior which makes it alright?

I agree. Pride cannot get in the way in conversations like this. Pride happens when a person puts their beliefs above another. However, its not pride to put Christ above all. We do grow in Christ when we feed and drink of His word. That's the issue here. If you do not feed and drink on His word, then your not going to grow.

It would be hypocritical to tell someone its 'ok' to believe what they want to believe. Why? Because, if we say Christ is the way, the truth, and the life - that there is only one faith, one Lord, one baptism, one God - then we have just told someone its 'ok' to believe something, but its wrong if they believe it.

Hypocrisy is when you tell someone to believe something and then you believe something that is opposed to it. It would be hypocritical to tell anyone who believes in Universalism, entrenched in Gnosctic beliefs, that they are fine to believe what they want. The Bible has to be 100% truth or it is a complete lie. You cannot have 99% truth - and it be complete truth.

Universalism is not only unseen in the Bible, it is actually taught against in the Bible. Look at your signature line. John 14. Read through that, and the chapters surrounding it, and tell me that Jesus says all mankind is going to come to him and will be saved.

 

[Lee2000]

hi

the born again experience is for the inside of the body repentance forgiveness to regenerate the spirit to save man and reconcile man back to God

water baptism is for the outside of the body an outward sign of repentance and symbolic of burying our old lives and habits leaving it buried and arising a new creature or creation in Christ Jesus.

baptism of the Holy Spirit is to equip us for ministry and to help us live a victorious life.

born again means born from above

Jesus was born from above in heaven and was placed in the womb of Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit

so he didn't inherit Adams sinful nature which is passed on from parent to child through our genes through procreation.(others may have a completely different view or perspective and that's fine)

Thats why we all have to be born again or reborn from above

So Jesus was born from above

then he got water baptized for an outward sign of repentance

then he was baptized in the Spirit for ministry

then he was tempted by the god of this world and over came him

then he began his ministry and said repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

then he preached taught and healed people

that's the order and example that Jesus provided

what ever you believe or what ever your denomination believes or practices is your business

just food for thought

Peace

 

[stovebolts]

I agree. Pride cannot get in the way in conversations like this. Pride happens when a person puts their beliefs above another. However, its not pride to put Christ above all. We do grow in Christ when we feed and drink of His word. That's the issue here. If you do not feed and drink on His word, then your not going to grow.

It would be hypocritical to tell someone its 'ok' to believe what they want to believe. Why? Because, if we say Christ is the way, the truth, and the life - that there is only one faith, one Lord, one baptism, one God - then we have just told someone its 'ok' to believe something, but its wrong if they believe it.

Hypocrisy is when you tell someone to believe something and then you believe something that is opposed to it. It would be hypocritical to tell anyone who believes in Universalism, entrenched in Gnosctic beliefs, that they are fine to believe what they want. The Bible has to be 100% truth or it is a complete lie. You cannot have 99% truth - and it be complete truth.

Universalism is not only unseen in the Bible, it is actually taught against in the Bible. Look at your signature line. John 14. Read through that, and the chapters surrounding it, and tell me that Jesus says all mankind is going to come to him and will be saved.

I completely understand what you are saying and your point of view.
However, you do take a few liberties, such as assuming it's ok for anyone to live the way they want.
Anyway, knowing what I know, I will play devils advocate, unless of course it turns to strife. In that case, I will be like snaglepuss because I do not wish to stir contention.

The Good news is that Jesus rose from the grave, and he invites all to join him. As there are consequences for behavior, there is consequence for sin.

The wages of sin is death, and death came through Adam for disobedience to Gods command. As such, all suffer the consequence of Adam, and all die because we all sin.

Adams sin was one of willful disobedience, unlike Eve who bought into a lie. And all suffer the consequence of Adams sin, yet non of us inherited Adams sin for we all are guilty of our own willful disobedience.

John makes it clear that we all sin. So what's our advantage? Do you find yourself in willful disobedience? Or are all of your sins like Eve, where you bought into a lie?

Many people buy into a lie. Saul persecuted Christians because he thought he was doing Gods will. That's not willful disobedience.... and we know willful disobedience is handledcdifferently than sin through ignorance.

Paul writes that sin is allowed so that Gods grace may be. Shown, but to the one who willfully sins so grace may abound, his condemnation is deserved.

So we have two scenereos. For the one who does not know Jesus, yet keeps the law of Christ, and happens to practice another faith based on their culture, how will God judge them?