An old question- Was Jesus God?

[Poor Old Spike]

I asked- If Jesus was God why did he say-
“Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." (Luke 18:19)
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This also has an easy answer surely any Evangelist should know..

We're back to "interpretations" again..
My interpretation is that Jesus fully recognised that he was half-human, half-God, and knew the frailties of his human half. So when people put him on a pedestal he liked to remind them that he wasn't perfect.
Same with me, I get fan mail from people in discussion forums in Internetland, but I'm always quick to point out that I'm certainly no saint, for example I'm an ex-convict..

 

[Poor Old Spike]

I AM is the Name of God, as told by God Himself, directly to Moses.

Aha, yet another interpretation..
But remember, after saying "I am" to the high priest, Jesus also went on to say- “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Mark 14:61-62)
which indicates that he and God are two separate entities..

 

[Razeontherock]

I asked- If Jesus was God why did he say-
“Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." (Luke 18:19)
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We're back to "interpretations" again..
My interpretation is that Jesus fully recognised that he was half-human, half-God, and knew the frailties of his human half. So when people put him on a pedestal he liked to remind them that he wasn't perfect.
Same with me, I get fan mail from people in discussion forums in Internetland, but I'm always quick to point out that I'm certainly no saint, for example I'm an ex-convict..

Half God is better than 0 God. That's progress!

Historical Christianity is Jesus is fully man, and fully God. Filled with Grace and Truth. 5 being the number of both of those. 2 5's = 10, which is the number of Law. Jesus fulfilled the Law, which was also written on 2 stone tablets, 5 commandments on each.
(I'm a numbers guy)

 

[Razeontherock]

Aha, yet another interpretation..
But remember, after saying "I am" to the high priest, Jesus also went on to say- “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Mark 14:61-62)
which indicates that he and God are two separate entities..

Separate entities? Not necessarily; two Persons of the Godhead fits here, too.

John 1 describes Jesus as Eternal, from the beginning, having always existed. What is that but God? Also the prime mover theory; are you familiar?

 

[JLB]

Aha, yet another interpretation..
But remember, after saying "I am" to the high priest, Jesus also went on to say- “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Mark 14:61-62)
which indicates that he and God are two separate entities..

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7



JLB

 

[chessman]

I suspect my earlier post where I listed all the times Jesus said he wasn't God isn't displaying on your monitor

Yet you haven’t actually posted any Scripture where Jesus said He wasn’t God.

you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Mark 14:61)

Yet that’s not actually Mark 14:61 it’s part of v62. So you’re close but not accurate.

 

[JohnDB]

Matthew 1:23

Names weren't tags...they were titles.

 

[Poor Old Spike]

I AM is the Name of God, as told by God Himself, directly to Moses..

The word Jehovah or Yahweh simply translates as "I am", so you see why some cults mistakenly think it's God's name..

 

[Poor Old Spike]

John 1 describes Jesus as Eternal, from the beginning, having always existed. What is that but God? Also the prime mover theory; are you familiar?

Never heard of it, all I know is that Jesus said- "Father you loved me before the creation of the world" (John 17:24)
so even back then God and Jesus were two separate entities and that's good enough for me..

 

[OzSpen]

They're simply somebody's opinion, just as valid as my own opinion and anybody else's..
However, I base my opinion on straight verses not abstract theology, for example when Stephen said just before his murder- "Look, I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." (Acts 7:6)
I'm inclined to take his word that he saw God and Jesus as two separate entities.

Spike,

There were not 'somebody's opinion' but they were 50 statements by God in Scripture that demonstrate Jesus is God.

So what is 'abstract theology?

Oz

 

[Poor Old Spike]

Spike,
There were not 'somebody's opinion' but they were 50 statements by God in Scripture that demonstrate Jesus is God.
So what is 'abstract theology?
Oz

I can (and already have) posted a wagonload of verses that indicate Jesus was NOT God, so take your pick which wagon you want to hitch your horse to..
As regards 'abstract theology', it's a longwinded tangled furball of verses that some 'vanity cults' weave together to try to pretend they know more than the rest of us poor schmucks..

 

[Knotical]

Never heard of it, all I know is that Jesus said- "Father you loved me before the creation of the world" (John 17:24)
so even back then God and Jesus were two separate entities and that's good enough for me..

Why is it so important for you to not believe that Jesus is God? He is part of the Trinity, along with the Holy Spirit and the Father. He merely has differentiated Himself as not being the Father. He never says He is not God. Plenty of people here have pointed that fact out to you.

 

[PeterJens]

Was Jesus God?
Jesus was the word made flesh.
The word is Gods message from Himself to us.

As the message, God spoken into human form, He is both not the Father, but also the
same as the Father. John deals with this tension by saying everything was created through
Him. The fact He was God was saying one simple reality, there is no need for a barrier between
God and man if man is willing to listen to Him.

The message was given through friends, people who lived in relationship with Him, in love and
devotion, not dictated through status or position, but because they desired to follow the King.

It is this closeness and friendship and love people find so hard to fathom, and Gods acceptance
of our frailty and failures.

"Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
John 14:8-10

God the King, wants us to be His friends, to know His heart and His intentions. It is our hearts
that distort and take us from Him and reject the very essence of who He is, which repentance and
the cross has resolved. Only the King could bring this reality into being, by choosing 12 apostles
to experience this first hand. In a strange way the 12 could have been any of us, they were part
of the Kingdom upon which He lavished His grace and love.

 

[OzSpen]

I can (and already have) posted a wagonload of verses that indicate Jesus was NOT God, so take your pick which wagon you want to hitch your horse to..

Are you saying that the Bible is contradictory in its teaching? If you give verses that supposedly affirm that Jesus was not God and I provide verses that show that Jesus is God, isn't that showing a lack of congruence?

Is that your view of the deity of Christ?

 

[JohnDB]

asked- If Jesus was God why did he say-
“Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." (Luke 18:19)

He was asking the "Rich Young Ruler" if he was calling Jesus God...and if he was....he was about to win a very big prize. But he blew it and got publicly humiliated for his sin of coveting. Anytime that someone recognized Jesus as either the Messiah (which was known to be God) or God directly Jesus asked straight forwardly "What do you want?" Meaning that they could have had any prize that God was capable of giving. (Basically anything)

God is so big...you can never back up far enough to view His entirety. God is infinite.
BUT

Jesus is fully man AND fully God at the same time...
What that means is that as much of God as God could fit into a man's body...that's Jesus...also referred to as the "Zera Elohim" or "Bene Elohim".
Or seed/son of God. Just a tiny portion of the fullness of God...which is infinite.

Think on the Mount of Transfiguration... Jesus must have felt relief up there with his Glorified body...just to have to give it up and deal with his apostles arguing and not healing people. (Totally disappointed and uncomfortable...just a word and the whole lot of them are toast....I probably would have)

 

[Selah]

If we take these verses literally- "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30)......"Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:8 )
of course they could mean he WAS God, but if we take them in context with all the other verses where he says he's NOT God, we can see he was speaking figuratively and indicating that people could hear God speaking through his mouth, just as medieval heralds went around Europe as spokesmen carrying messages from king to king.
Jesus said - "I say nothing of my own accord, i only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)
As Paul noted- "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son.." (Hebrews 1:1-2)

Jesus never said he was not God.

Jesus was divine holy spirit indwelling flesh. Jesus taught the truth of the Father in parables. Poetic language using metaphor, allegory, allusion, in order to inform those who would have the insight to understand his meaning, the truth of the Father and the plan of salvation. He was a messenger in flesh that people would relate contextually to a fellow human being performing miracles and speaking of eternal life.
Jesus also told his followers, and us as it appears in God's words, the bible, that we too could do the very things he did. Indwelt by the spirit within and as cause behind all creation and created.

You can't heal the blind, raise the dead, make the lame to walk, at this moment. However, if we have faith even as little as the size of a mustard seed we could look to a mountain and tell it to move, and it would move. That parable was the metaphor for what later became in scripture as, "I can do all things through Christ".
Through, being the operative word.

When you have seen me you have seen the Father.
Jesus was made to become human born into this world by the holy spirit of the Father who begat himself on Mary.

It wasn't sperm and egg that brought Jesus to life. It was the holy spirit that begat Jesus through Mary.
Jesus was God.
Jesus never once said he lied when he said that was so in all those passages we share here in this discussion. Jesus never contradicted himself when he said, I and the Father are one. But lie and contradiction is what is being implied when claiming Jesus never said he was God.

He did. The seeds of understanding will show this is found in God's words.
That's what Jesus was talking about when he said those with the eyes to see shall see. Those with the ears to hear shall hear.
It is why he healed the blind. And raised the dead. To show the power of God in action after word of mouth, through Jesus, delivered God's sermon of truth to those who followed.

Those who went out from Jesus because they could not accept what they witnessed, did not believe what they saw, were said to not be one with Jesus. Those persons were unbelievers even when God worked miracles right before their eyes.

Immanuel! Prophesied in the old testament, brought forth to life by God and his will in the new. Immanuel, you shall call him. Which means, God with us. There is no equivocation in such a title as that.

 

[Selah]

They're simply somebody's opinion, just as valid as my own opinion and anybody else's..

No, not actually. You opine contrary to the scriptures. That does not eradicate the fact within the scriptures. Nor does your opinion prove right through the scriptures.
You are of the opinion the scriptures are wrong. This is demonstrated when the scriptures that state declaratory word from God himself that Jesus is he, and you presume to put forth other scriptures that you are of the opinion state otherwise.

Your opinion does not detract from fact. Your opinion actually declares you do not believe Jesus was God. That does not mean Jesus was not God.
At this level of discussion back and forth it is evident you are not going to have your mind changed by the holy spirit mind that informed the world of Jesus' divinity. In my opinion more pages making that futile effort would be contrary to what Jesus advised of his disciples after he instructed them to go forth and teach what the teacher gave them as the good news Gospel. And how to deal with those who would not receive the truth, and in God's words found in Matthew 10:14 and Luke 9:5.
“When you knock on a door, be courteous in your greeting. If they welcome you, be gentle in your conversation. If they don’t welcome you, quietly withdraw. Don’t make a scene. Shrug your shoulders and be on your way. You can be sure that on Judgment Day they’ll be mighty sorry—but it’s no concern of yours now."

"If the people of the village won't receive your message when you enter it, shake off its dust from your feet as you leave. It is a sign that you have abandoned that village to its fate."

 

[LovethroughDove]

Human Mary had something to do with it too, so we could say Jesus was half-God, half-human..

Okay. This is where we can stop debating because this is where we all come to common ground.

Jesus is God because of the DNA of his Father
Jesus is the Son of Man too because of DNA from his Mother.

Can you see? No human ever has had this DNA

 

[Selah]

God is the source from whence all things exist from the beginning. God is all, in all, source of all. Mary had no DNA that was not of God. Jesus was begat upon Mary by the holy spirit. Mary was the holy grail, the sacred cup, by which the communion between the divine and creation arrived in order to lead humanity back to the source that gave them first life.

There is no thing that is not a thing of God.
No, Jesus was not a half breed. Half divine , half human. Jesus was the living proof of God's work as creator of creation. Remember Genesis. "Made in His image and likeness." Jesus was that. It is why he was able to do Godly things like raise flesh from the sleep of death. Because he was first the source of life.
The words of God told us no one can look upon the Father and live. He's just too great a power for mere mortal consciousness and awareness to understand. God made himself flesh so that divide could be bridged.

 

[Poor Old Spike]

..You are of the opinion the scriptures are wrong...

No, I'm only of the opinion that some people's interpretations are wrong, just as they think my interpretations are wrong..
Here's another verse where Jesus makes it crystal clear that he and God are separate entities (my underlining)-
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free" (Luke 8:14)