An old question- Was Jesus God?

[for_his_glory]

I agree. The Son is under the Father and we are under the Son.

It doesn't make Jesus less Lord that he is in submission to the Father. I think people are scared to make him under the Father for 2 reasons (1) it makes him less God........which it does not. (2) They think it puts him as a polytheistic God.....which it does not

This is a huge misconception running through Christendom. I have no mystery when it comes to scripture and how I worship God. The following scripture should be how we base Christianity. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28

If someone can't understand that scripture......please focus on the part where it says the Son himself will be made subject to him (the Father)

In post #200 I tried to explain this to the best of my understanding as Jesus being coequal to God as being Alpha and Omega, the great I Am.

IMO, I don't think any of us can truly comprehend it thoroughly.

 

[for_his_glory]

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

 

[OzSpen]

In addition to what you are saying...it was a foregone conclusion to that council that Jesus is God...it was a core belief...the reason they existed to begin with.

Every version of the Nicean Creed/Apostles Creed and etc has the line "very God of very God"
Meaning that Jesus is God.

Because there were people then (none of the apostles or Paul) that were trying to make Jesus something other than God Himself.

John,

We need to understand that the Council of Nicaea was dealing with the heresy of Arianism, promoted by Arius. He did not believe Jesus was God. So, the Council agreed with Scripture in declaring Jesus God.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Spike is long since gone...
Been at least a year since we seen him last.

Your answer is good...but the OP probably won't answer.

John,

Spike is gone, but the topic of Jesus' deity continues to be a contemporary point of contention, particularly in light of the ever active JWs who knock on our doors.

Let's check a few Scriptures in support of Jesus' deity:

God, the Son, is regarded as God. He has the attributes of deity:

(1) Eternity (Jn 1:15; 8:58; 17:5, 24);
(2) Omniscience (Jn 2:24-25; 16:30; 21:17);
(3) Omnipresence (Mt 18:20; 28:20; Jn 3:13);
(4) Omnipotence. ‘I am the Almighty’ (Rev 1:8; Heb 1:3; Mt 28:18);
(5) Immutable (Heb 1:12; 13:8);
(6) He does the actions of deity:

• He was creator (Jn 1:3; Heb 1:10; Col 1:16);
• holds things together (Col 1:17; Heb 1:3);
• forgives sin (Mt 9:2, 6);
• raises the dead (Jn 6:39-40, 54; 11:25; 20:25, 28);
• he will be the Judge (Jn 5:22) of believers (2 Cor 5:10), of Antichrist and his followers (Rev 19:15), the nations (Ac 17:31), Satan (Gen 3:15) and the living and the dead (Ac 10:42).

For anyone to deny that Jesus is God, they have to ignore or deny this evidence.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Exodus 3:14; Matthew 28:18; John 1:1-5; John 14:6, 26; Rev 1:8; 21:16

Basically it is one God who is spirit and functions in three Divine persons as "I Am". It's three forms of God's Spirit that is manifested in the flesh of Christ being the word of God in the beginning sent down to earth in the flesh of man and the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of God He sent down after Jesus ascended up to heaven.

FHG,

Those verses (I read all of them) do not support your claim that "It's three forms of God's Spirit that is manifested in the flesh of Christ being the word of God in the beginning sent down to earth in the flesh of man".

'Three forms of God's Spirit' is the heretical doctrine of the early church.

Modalism and Monarchianism are two false views of the nature of God and of Jesus Christ that appeared in the second and third centuries AD. A modalist views God as one Person instead of three Persons and believes that the Father, Son, and Spirit are simply different modes or forms of the same divine Person. According to modalism, God can switch among three different manifestations. A Monarchian believes in the unity of God (the Latin word monarchia meant “single rule”) to the point that he denies God’s triune nature. Both modalism and Monarchianism inevitably hold to the doctrine of Patripassianism, the teaching that God the Father suffered on the cross with (or as) the Son, and are closely related to Sabellianism (What is Modalism-Monarchianism?)​

At this point of your postings, I can't see you promoting an orthodox, biblical understanding of the Trinity. I want to be kind to you. It could be you are thinking out loud as you pursue these issues.

I urge you to do some more thorough study on the Trinity in orthodox systematic theology texts to gain a better understanding (e.g. Geisler, Grudem, Erickson, Berkhof).

Oz

 

[Serving Zion]

John,

Spike is gone, but the topic of Jesus' deity continues to be a contemporary point of contention, particularly in light of the ever active JWs who knock on our doors.

Let's check a few Scriptures in support of Jesus' deity:

God, the Son, is regarded as God. He has the attributes of deity:

(1) Eternity (Jn 1:15; 8:58; 17:5, 24);
(2) Omniscience (Jn 2:24-25; 16:30; 21:17);
(3) Omnipresence (Mt 18:20; 28:20; Jn 3:13);
(4) Omnipotence. ‘I am the Almighty’ (Rev 1:8; Heb 1:3; Mt 28:18);
(5) Immutable (Heb 1:12; 13:8);
(6) He does the actions of deity:

• He was creator (Jn 1:3; Heb 1:10; Col 1:16);
• holds things together (Col 1:17; Heb 1:3);
• forgives sin (Mt 9:2, 6);
• raises the dead (Jn 6:39-40, 54; 11:25; 20:25, 28);
• he will be the Judge (Jn 5:22) of believers (2 Cor 5:10), of Antichrist and his followers (Rev 19:15), the nations (Ac 17:31), Satan (Gen 3:15) and the living and the dead (Ac 10:42).

For anyone to deny that Jesus is God, they have to ignore or deny this evidence.

Oz

It is exactly how that picture is imagined in the mind, that is the difficult thing for people, until enough time and the right words have led them to understand it (as I suppose every concept is learned). I think it helps to reinforce that the human body of Jesus was not the eternal thing that spoke (because "the Word became flesh and dwelled among us") therefore the Word, being the son, was with God in the beginning, as God. And also that word belongs to Him who says "heaven and earth will pass away but my words will always remain" .. so who do we recognise as the one who speaks when those words are said? If a person has no concept of spirituality, they will see only the picture of the carnal flesh body of Jesus, and that is what they worship: carnality. Once a person is born again, to recognise the same spirit who said it, is Him who speaks in our midst, then it is a step closer to real understanding of the omniscience of the deity of Christ, and the omnipresence where St. Paul has said "we have the mind of Christ".

 

[Serving Zion]

He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things. Ephesians 4:10

Ao you agree then, that Jesus physically ascended to the highest heaven and is seated at the right hand of God?

JLB

JLB , are you happy to provide the clarification I have asked for? Is there something I have said that you think is contradicted by scripture? If so, I would like to see that scripture and provide an explanation.

 

[JLB]

JLB , are you happy to provide the clarification I have asked for? Is there something I have said that you think is contradicted by scripture? If so, I would like to see that scripture and provide an explanation.

I honestly don’t understand the point you are wanting to make.


So, I asked you a simple question that if answered, would clarify your belief in the subject we are discussing.


Do you agree that Jesus physically ascended to the highest heaven and is seated at the right hand of God?


Thanks, JLB

 

[Serving Zion]

I honestly don’t understand the point you are wanting to make.


So, I asked you a simple question that if answered, would clarify your belief in the subject we are discussing.


Do you agree that Jesus physically ascended to the highest heaven and is seated at the right hand of God?


Thanks, JLB

Well I have said all those things myself, so you really do need to clarify your reason for asking me. What is it, specifically about what I have said that you believe is conflicting with what scripture expects me to say?

 

[JLB]

Well I have said all those things myself, so you really do need to clarify your reason for asking me. What is it, specifically about what I have said that you believe is conflicting with what scripture expects me to say?

I haven’t said anything about you conflicting with the scriptures.

I only asked a question because I don’t really understand from your post, what your point is.


Do you agree that Jesus physically ascended to the highest heaven and is seated at the right hand of God?


JLB

 

[Serving Zion]

I haven’t said anything about you conflicting with the scriptures.

I know, and that is despite my having asked you to do that three times!

I only asked a question because I don’t really understand from your post, what your point is.

Do you agree that Jesus physically ascended to the highest heaven and is seated at the right hand of God?


JLB

It really does seem that you haven't read me at all, because you asked that question right after I said this:

Ephesians 4:10 actually says He ascended above *all* heavens,

.. therefore, if you cannot understand what I am saying then you need to tell me what I have said that is not what you would naturally expect me to say, in view of the scriptures.

 

[JLB]

I know, and that is despite my having asked you to do that three times!

This makes no sense.

I never said or inferred or mentioned, that you are conflicting with the scripture.


You can repeat yourself 1000 times if you like, but it won’t change what I didn’t say.



JLB

 

[JLB]

It really does seem that you haven't read me at all, because you asked that question right after I said this:

Ephesians 4:10 actually says He ascended above *all* heavens,

.. therefore, if you cannot understand what I am saying then you need to tell me what I have said that is not what you would naturally expect me to say, in view of the scriptures.

I read what you wrote, which is why I asked you the question that I asked.



Here is the question again, with emphasis.


Do you agree that Jesus physically ascended to the highest heaven and is seated at the right hand of God?


JLB

 

[Serving Zion]

I read what you wrote, which is why I asked you the question that I asked.



Here is the question again, with emphasis.


Do you agree that Jesus physically ascended to the highest heaven and is seated at the right hand of God?


JLB

Look, JLB, I really do not know why you would have such doubts. You really need to explain yourself.

 

[dianegcook]

The trinity is a difficult thing for humans to comprehend.
We are speaking of a different dimension.

In Isa.9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be on His shoulder., and HIS NAME shall be called Wonderful, Councelor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER.....

So according to this scripture and others, HE is CALLED GOD.
Period.
The WORD was GOD.....

Jesus was God in the flesh.....

Jesus walked this earth, and was to be an example for us, when Jesus spoke to God, it was for our own benefit, as the example of raising Lazarus.
John 11:42
FATHER, I thank thee that thou hast heard Me..
And I knew that thou hearest Me always,
But, because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe......

The trinity is like different roles that each perform.
Jesus which was God in the flesh played the Saviour role.
Without bloodshed is no remission.

The right-hand is usually referred to power or works....
God's right hand thus, the saving power.....
The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit....

They are One.
.

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

Those verses (I read all of them) do not support your claim that "It's three forms of God's Spirit that is manifested in the flesh of Christ being the word of God in the beginning sent down to earth in the flesh of man".

'Three forms of God's Spirit' is the heretical doctrine of the early church.

Modalism and Monarchianism are two false views of the nature of God and of Jesus Christ that appeared in the second and third centuries AD. A modalist views God as one Person instead of three Persons and believes that the Father, Son, and Spirit are simply different modes or forms of the same divine Person. According to modalism, God can switch among three different manifestations. A Monarchian believes in the unity of God (the Latin word monarchia meant “single rule”) to the point that he denies God’s triune nature. Both modalism and Monarchianism inevitably hold to the doctrine of Patripassianism, the teaching that God the Father suffered on the cross with (or as) the Son, and are closely related to Sabellianism (What is Modalism-Monarchianism?)​

At this point of your postings, I can't see you promoting an orthodox, biblical understanding of the Trinity. I want to be kind to you. It could be you are thinking out loud as you pursue these issues.

I urge you to do some more thorough study on the Trinity in orthodox systematic theology texts to gain a better understanding (e.g. Geisler, Grudem, Erickson, Berkhof).

Oz

These are the scriptures I have studied on the Trinity and where I draw my conclusions. I do thank you for giving me those names, but like I have been saying, I really do not think anyone can understand it fully.

Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Scriptures that refer the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

 

[JLB]

Look, JLB, I really do not know why you would have such doubts. You really need to explain yourself.

I believe Jesus physically ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God. How about you, do you believe this?



JLB

 

[dianegcook]

I believe Jesus physically ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God. How about you, do you believe this?



JLB

Amen
Psa.17:7
Show thy marvellous lovingkindness, OThou that SAVEST BY THY RIGHT HAND..
Psa.20:6
Now know I that the Lord savest His anointed, He will hear Him from His Holy heaven with THE SAVING STRENGTH OF HIS RIGHT HAND.
Hosea 13:4
There is no saviour beside Me.

 

[LovethroughDove]

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Here is a diagram I made to explain. It won't be like any other explanation, but it won't contradict scripture. Oh, and I didn't know how to draw the Holy Spirit working through ALL that is God.

 

[Serving Zion]

I believe Jesus physically ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God. How about you, do you believe this?

JLB

Is that not what the scriptures say? (eg: Acts 13:29-30 and Ephesians 2:5-6). It is a real concern that you have thought I could have a view that conflicts with what scripture says. Do you think I am not entitled to know why?