An old question- Was Jesus God?

[Serving Zion]

I have read Matthew 17 however this transpires prior to the resurrection

It was given as an example of the physical proximity of heaven to earth (ie: in the midst, not way off in outer space).

One can argue that perhaps Jesus was not what we believe to be the only physical form but instead while still a physical form capable of much more than we are limited to here on earth.

You'd be pushing against scripture and doctrine for that. It was necessary that our high priest, to save us, become in all ways as human as us so that he may sympathise with our weaknesses and has tasted of death that is owed to us.

The reason I claim it was still a physical body is not only because He was seen in this new body but this body was also touched.

You would find that the physical reality of the spiritual bodies are as capable of that, while being more naturally elevated in glory and power. Judges 6:21 has an example to consider, where the angel of the Lord was physically interacting with reality. I think angels would be far too powerless for God's army if they were limited only to a spiritual (illusionary) form.

 

[BondservantRom6:22]

It was given as an example of the physical proximity of heaven to earth (ie: in the midst, not way off in outer space).



You'd be pushing against scripture and doctrine for that. It was necessary that our high priest, to save us, become in all ways as human as us so that he may sympathise with our weaknesses and has tasted of death that is owed to us.



You would find that the physical reality of the spiritual bodies are as capable of that, while being more naturally elevated in glory and power. Judges 6:21 has an example to consider, where the angel of the Lord was physically interacting with reality. I think angels would be far too powerless for God's army if they were limited only to a spiritual (illusionary) form.

Thank you for explaining.

 

[Serving Zion]

The spirit realm is indeed all around us.

However, the third heaven or highest heaven is where Jesus ascended.

It’s also where John was caught to, and recorded the book of Revelation based on his experience there.


JLB

Ephesians 4:10 actually says He ascended above *all* heavens, and gives the reason why: that He may fill all things. Having been given the name above all names - He is seated at the right hand of the father, whom King Solomon understood was unable to abide within the heavens of the heavens (1 Kings 8:27).

The word "heaven" literally means "the realm above", which is understood in carnal terms as being the sky "where the birds of the heavens" live and the "waters of the heavens" abide.

Genesis begins in fact saying that in the beginning God created the heavens (plural) and the earth. So there is an acknowledgment that a realm exists being higher than the earth, and expressed theology from the start that there are higher realms therein.

Also to note is that the serpent was cursed to go on his belly liking dust, and it being cursed more than every other creature so that it is always lower in status than those of other realms. We understand the fallen angels have been imprisoned in chains of deep darkness too, having fallen from the presence of the Father, and Jesus has descended in order to preach to them. That rebellious, misguided, sinful house is the spiritual realm of the hell that Jesus said the gates of would not prevail against His church (Matthew 16:18) because we follow the guidance of the heavenly father. Thus the grades of the spiritual realm are distinguished as higher or lower in status (John 8:23) and earth is the carnal realm - the battleground, where the spirits war and vie for absolute victory (Daniel 9:26c) and where humans are either slaves to sin or are redeemed as slaves to Christ, or are Christ's freed men.

 

[JLB]

Ephesians 4:10 actually says He ascended above *all* heavens, and gives the reason why: that He may fill all things. Having been given the name above all names - He is seated at the right hand of the father, whom King Solomon understood was unable to abide within the heavens of the heavens (1 Kings 8:27).

The word "heaven" literally means "the realm above", which is understood in carnal terms as being the sky "where the birds of the heavens" live and the "waters of the heavens" abide.

Genesis begins in fact saying that in the beginning God created the heavens (plural) and the earth. So there is an acknowledgment that a realm exists being higher than the earth, and expressed theology from the start that there are higher realms therein.

Also to note is that the serpent was cursed to go on his belly liking dust, and it being cursed more than every other creature so that it is always lower in status than those of other realms. We understand the fallen angels have been imprisoned in chains of deep darkness too, having fallen from the presence of the Father, and Jesus has descended in order to preach to them. That rebellious, misguided, sinful house is the spiritual realm of the hell that Jesus said the gates of would not prevail against His church (Matthew 16:18) because we follow the guidance of the heavenly father. Thus the grades of the spiritual realm are distinguished as higher or lower in status (John 8:23) and earth is the carnal realm - the battleground, where the spirits war and vie for absolute victory (Daniel 9:26c) and where humans are either slaves to sin or are redeemed as slaves to Christ, or are Christ's freed men.

He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things. Ephesians 4:10


Ao you agree then, that Jesus physically ascended to the highest heaven and is seated at the right hand of God?




JLB

 

[Serving Zion]

He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things. Ephesians 4:10

Ao you agree then, that Jesus physically ascended to the highest heaven and is seated at the right hand of God?

JLB

Can you clarify the reason for asking me that question? Why are you appearing to doubt my understanding of scripture?

 

[daninthelionsden]

Jesus often prayed to God.
But if he was God why would he pray to himself?

A lot of what Jesus did was to set an example on how to live our lives. How to relate to the Father. How to pray to Him.

 

[OzSpen]

Jesus often prayed to God.
But if he was God why would he pray to himself?

Spike,

That's because God the Father is not the same person as God the Son. The Father and Son were in communion/communication with one another. Each person of the Trinity has specific 'jobs' to do and in some circumstances they need to speak with one another to get those jobs done.

Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

You will not find the word Trinity or Deity in scripture, but this means God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as all three coequal Gods Spirit.

Jesus being the right arm of God. Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Jesus is the word of God. John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jesus is word, light and life that is God come in the flesh. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Gods Holy Spirit has come to indwell us and teach us. John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Scriptures that refer the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

 

[OzSpen]

You will not find the word Trinity or Deity in scripture, but this means God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as all three coequal Gods Spirit.

FHG,

Where in the Bible do you find the doctrine that Father, Son and Holy Spirit "all three coequal God's Spirit"?

Oz

 

[LovethroughDove]

FHG,

Where in the Bible do you find the doctrine that Father, Son and Holy Spirit "all three coequal God's Spirit"?

Oz

I agree. The Son is under the Father and we are under the Son.

It doesn't make Jesus less Lord that he is in submission to the Father. I think people are scared to make him under the Father for 2 reasons (1) it makes him less God........which it does not. (2) They think it puts him as a polytheistic God.....which it does not

This is a huge misconception running through Christendom. I have no mystery when it comes to scripture and how I worship God. The following scripture should be how we base Christianity. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28

If someone can't understand that scripture......please focus on the part where it says the Son himself will be made subject to him (the Father)

 

[Serving Zion]

I agree. The Son is under the Father and we are under the Son.

It doesn't make Jesus less Lord that he is in submission to the Father. I think people are scared to make him under the Father for 2 reasons (1) it makes him less God........which it does not. (2) They think it puts him as a polytheistic God.....which it does not

This is a huge misconception running through Christendom. I have no mystery when it comes to scripture and how I worship God. The following scripture should be how we base Christianity. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28

If someone can't understand that scripture......please focus on the part where it says the Son himself will be made subject to him (the Father)

The answer has to do with the reason that we need Jesus to plead on our behalf (1 John 2:1, Hebrews 7:25), and who does He plead against? None other than the dragon, the accuser of the brethren. And what opportunity does the accuser have to bring charges against us? Only that our obedience has not been completed (2 Corinthians 10:6, Galatians 4:19).. and what it requires is complete self-sacrifice, who can do it?

When the Lord takes pleasure in anyone’s way, he causes their enemies to make peace with them. (Proverbs 16:7 LEB).

Thus, while we are yet sinners, Jesus loves us and pleads for God's mercy as long as the adversary hates us and pleads for God's judgment. As soon as Jesus prevails to win the case against the adversary, the doors are shut just as He has said. His prayer to the Father is still to this day, that He should not lose one of those whom He has been given.

 

[Susannah]

The Council at Nicea made this decision to make him God. At the time there was a great controversy. Everything we believe outside the Bible was from a group of old men. I rely on the Bible for my wisdom and the Holy Spirit. This is why I celebrate the Jewish/Bible Sabbath on Saturday, where I rest, and worship on Sunday, Resurrection Day. Worshipping on Sunday is also not in the Bible. A Roman emperor named Constantine made this decision for all the Christians. So what is more important? The Bible? Tradition? Holy Spirit. I think you know who I rely on.

 

[OzSpen]

The Council at Nicea made this decision to make him God. At the time there was a great controversy. Everything we believe outside the Bible was from a group of old men. I rely on the Bible for my wisdom and the Holy Spirit. This is why I celebrate the Jewish/Bible Sabbath on Saturday, where I rest, and worship on Sunday, Resurrection Day. Worshipping on Sunday is also not in the Bible. A Roman emperor named Constantine made this decision for all the Christians. So what is more important? The Bible? Tradition? Holy Spirit. I think you know who I rely on.

'On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight' (Acts 20:7 NIV).

 

[Corn Pop]

Was Jesus God.

The Son said to his diciples that the Father would send the Holy Spirit in his name.

Would you not think if The Son was not God that the Father would send the Holy Spirit in his own name and authority?.

Also. "Then The Son came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

Wow, all authority in heaven and in earth. Would you not think only God would claim that authority.

God called himself the first and the last and there is no other. In revelation The Son calls himself the first and the last.

If someone can raise from the dead then i'm going to believe what they say.

 

[Serving Zion]

Everything we believe outside the Bible was from a group of old men.

When people say things like that, I am reminded of Hebrews 7:12, 23-24.

 

[JohnDB]

Spike,

That's because God the Father is not the same person as God the Son. The Father and Son were in communion/communication with one another. Each person of the Trinity has specific 'jobs' to do and in some circumstances they need to speak with one another to get those jobs done.

Oz

Spike is long since gone...
Been at least a year since we seen him last.

Your answer is good...but the OP probably won't answer.

 

[WIP]

The Council at Nicea made this decision to make him God. At the time there was a great controversy. Everything we believe outside the Bible was from a group of old men. I rely on the Bible for my wisdom and the Holy Spirit. This is why I celebrate the Jewish/Bible Sabbath on Saturday, where I rest, and worship on Sunday, Resurrection Day. Worshipping on Sunday is also not in the Bible. A Roman emperor named Constantine made this decision for all the Christians. So what is more important? The Bible? Tradition? Holy Spirit. I think you know who I rely on.

Not trying to nitpick but the council could not have made a decision to make Jesus God. Mankind cannot make that decision. Jesus always was and always will be God.

 

[JohnDB]

Not trying to nitpick but the council could not have made a decision to make Jesus God. Mankind cannot make that decision. Jesus always was and always will be God.

In addition to what you are saying...it was a foregone conclusion to that council that Jesus is God...it was a core belief...the reason they existed to begin with.

Every version of the Nicean Creed/Apostles Creed and etc has the line "very God of very God"
Meaning that Jesus is God.

Because there were people then (none of the apostles or Paul) that were trying to make Jesus something other than God Himself.

 

[JohnDB]

There's a lot of people who are desperate to have Jesus be anyone except for God.
Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and Atheists all are desperate for Jesus to be anyone or anything else. Their whole goal is to create doubt.
Because if Jesus is God...then they are in a lot of trouble in a lot of ways. And because Jesus is God...they are.
(Misery loves company)

Then there is that "special snowflake" group...
(As in "no single snowflake feels responsible for the avalanche")
This group creates a god of their own creation...they create a jesus that says it's ok to sin if you really want/need to...you don't have to give up anything and that Jesus is your biggest fan and buddy doing "Santa Claus/superhero type things for you.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Jesus demonstrated that He was not OK with any sin...he wasn't there to allow people to play footsie with it. (Pigs in Gadarenes demonstrate this)
Jesus is above all things, in all things, and made all things...
He has ALL (completely inclusive) authority in Heaven. (Whether you get to stay or not is his decision)
He has ALL authority on Earth...Your next breath is at his active support.

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

Where in the Bible do you find the doctrine that Father, Son and Holy Spirit "all three coequal God's Spirit"?

Oz

Exodus 3:14; Matthew 28:18; John 1:1-5; John 14:6, 26; Rev 1:8; 21:16

Basically it is one God who is spirit and functions in three Divine persons as "I Am". It's three forms of God's Spirit that is manifested in the flesh of Christ being the word of God in the beginning sent down to earth in the flesh of man and the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of God He sent down after Jesus ascended up to heaven.

The simplest way I can explain it is God is like 3-In-One oil. It's all oil, but has many different functions.