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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
An old question- Was Jesus God?
- Thread starter Poor Old Spike
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BondservantRom6:22
Member
I believe in God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit... But I do believe that Jesus is God only based upon what they call themselves and say who they are in the scriptures below.
Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses " I AM WHO I AM. And He said, Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, " I AM has sent me to you."
Now Jesus response
John 8:57-58 Then the Jews said to Him, " You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham? Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
And again at the end when it matters most to those who believe in Him
Revelation 1:8 " I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, " says the Lord, " who is and who was , and who is to come, the Almighty."
Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses " I AM WHO I AM. And He said, Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, " I AM has sent me to you."
Now Jesus response
John 8:57-58 Then the Jews said to Him, " You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham? Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
And again at the end when it matters most to those who believe in Him
Revelation 1:8 " I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, " says the Lord, " who is and who was , and who is to come, the Almighty."
Lucian Hodoboc
Member
So Who did Jesus say that He was ascending to in John 20:17?
JohnDB
Member
This is a Trinity reference made by Jesus. It's not modelism, nor pantheon. It's Trinity.
His Father.
His God.
Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ” John 20:17
Jesus became flesh, a little lower than the angels.
Before He became flesh, He is the Lord God, who laid the foundation of the earth, and stretched out the heavens.
IOW, He created all things.
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10
again
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:15-16
JLB
Lucian Hodoboc
Member
I don't understand The Trinity. If Jesus is YahWeh from the Old Testament, Who did He ascend to? How can One ascend to Himself? Or is His Father someone other than YahWeh?
The trinity, one being made up of three independent beings:-
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit
Each is not the other, yet each is God.
I don't understand it and I would suggest ignore anyone who says they do understand it.
The trinity is one of the few things we have to accept.
If you are keen to learn more, don't post on forums but buy books on the trinity and read them or research Christian web sites for information, articles on the trinity and read them.
Try Tectonics.org use search function for Trinity, there are several articles there.
Or answersingenesis, again use the search function. Yes a yes site, some people are ignorant enough to dispose these defenders of biblical authority, but then some people dispose the Bible.
Or coldcasechristianity or reasonable faith, tough questions answered etc etc etc
His Father gave Him the same Name, as Himself; the Name above all names.
My first born son has the same name as me.
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. John 17:11 NIV
- protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me
JLB
Who Me,
Do these 3 independent beings function as modes of operation of the one true God?
Oz
Lucian,
How do Father, Son and Holy Spirit relate in the Godhead?
These diagrams by Wayne Grudem are the most helpful I’ve seen for explaining the Trinity, comparing false views with his orthodox understanding. Originally they were from Grudem (1994:253-258).
This (to the left) is an heretical view of the Trinity where God’s being is divided into three equal parts, Father, Son and Holy Spirit – thus making three Gods. The Athanasian Creed was written to address this error.
Since I’m examining the personhood of each member of the Trinity, how can we speak of Father, Son and Holy Spirit in unity and yet they are separate persons. ‘If each person is fully God and has all of God’s being, then we also should not think that the personal distinctions are any kind of additional attributes added on to the being of God, like this pattern (to the left).
Human beings (and I’m one of them) find it difficult to comprehend the nature of the Trinitarian God. However, this teaching is straight from Scripture. Analogies fail and diagrams have disadvantages. It is essential doctrine that we understand ‘each person of the Trinity has all of the attributes of God, and no one person has any attributes that are not possessed by the others’ (Grudem 1994:253).
‘The three persons of the Trinity are not just three different ways of looking at the one being of God’.
‘What are the differences between Father, Son and Holy Spirit? There is no difference in attributes at all. The only difference between them is the way they relate to each other and to the creation (Grudem 1994:254).
This is taken from my article, How to understand three persons in the Trinity
While Grudem regarded the above three diagrams as flawed representations of the Trinity, he considered this diagram (to the left), although imperfect, was a representation of the orthodox understanding of the Trinity.
Are you interested in pursuing how each member of the Trinity is God and that there is only one true God?
Oz
Serving Zion
Member
This is what Jesus has said: "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:24)
So because God is spirit, He is not physically walking around as a thing that can be grasped. But Jesus also has said "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst." (Matthew 18:20).
.. but then why do we not see Jesus physically sitting there with us when we are gathered? It is because the one who was saying "I am" is the spirit of God (John 8:58).
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you." (John 16:13-15).
We see in that example that the person who was speaking through Jesus was the soul of Jesus Himself - the ego of the awareness of His own human form. Yet, in another place we have seen that He has spoken these words: "“Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?" (John 14:9). Therefore we can see that Jesus, although being a physical man with a human body that God does not have, is a vessel for the spirit of God to speak to us.
So a distinction can be made in identifying the origin of the words that have been spoken by Jesus:
(1) "I have many things to tell you, but you cannot bear them now, but when the spirit of truth comes He will reveal all things to you" - Jesus as the human soul, having an awareness of His eternal existence, speaks as the son of God.
(2) "Wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them" - the spirit of Christ is speaking, being the same mind as in case (1) but referring to Himself as a spirit rather than a human. In case 1, Jesus had recognised His disciples were speaking to Him as a man, so He answered them as a man. In this case, He is speaking to them as an omnipresent spirit - being among those who are gathered in His name, even if they are gathered in different places at the same time.
(3) "Have I been with you all this time Philip, and you have not yet come to know me? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - the spirit of God speaks to Philip through the vessel of Jesus, so that Philip is having a divine encounter with the spirit of God in the first person, and Jesus Himself has a relationship with the Father but does not claim to be the Father (although obviously the Father has spoken through Him).
So we need to be clear in our distinction between that which is carnal (the body and the ego, John 1:14) and that which is spirit (John 6:63, Hebrews 12:9).
When Jesus said that He was going to ascend, He is not saying that He would physically go up, but He is using language to describe His stature - because we know that it is written that He "was made a little lower than the angels for a while", that "the same who went up is the one who came down", that "though being without sin, was made sin on behalf of us", that "being found in appearance as a man, humbled Himself", and as a son of man was despised and regarded as nothing, even as a worm (Job 25:3-6, Psalms 22:6).
Therefore, He is showing that the son of man is a scorned thing (that is why all the prophets before Him were persecuted, and those who come after Him too).
So when Jesus says "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit", He is declaring that He will no longer attempt to do His works through His earthen body, but that He would trust the Father to achieve justice for Him - for the Father is the judge of all. Thus, when He was declared righteous by God and was resurrected, He became our High Priest until the end of time (Hebrews 7:23-28).
So take notice of what it really means that He ascended, is that He was elevated "far above all the heavens" (Hebrews 7:26, Ephesians 4:10, Ephesians 1:21-22), is that He was given a name that is far higher than any other - so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. It means that His status, His name, His identity, who He is in the world has ascended from being one who was despised and considered accursed (Isaiah 53:3-4) to one who now has been declared righteous by God - that anyone who does not honour Him is themselves accursed (Galatians 1:6-9, 2 Peter 2:1).
In this way, we can see that although Jesus is the embodiment of the spirit of Christ, and when we receive the gospel of salvation we too become inducted to His discipline that He may do similar works through us, God the father is greater in status because He is the one whom Christ was with in the beginning, and it is the Father that has given all things to the son, even being the one who has vindicated Him.
Furthermore, God the Father is the one who gives increase (John 15:1-2, 1 Corinthians 3:6), and when Jesus says that He is in us, and we are in Him, and He is in the Father, He is making a similar statement as Paul is making, that although Paul sows and Apollos waters, it is God who gives the increase. In the same way, although Jesus is among us as one who ministers to us, any growth or power in His name is coming from God the father (John 16:23, Luke 22:27).
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BondservantRom6:22
Member
Serving Zion ,
In your response you stated that Jesus was stating that He would not physically ascend is this true seeing as how in the resurrection His body was resurrected physically so that He even appeared in physical form to many of His disciples? Would this not also mean that He did ascend to heaven in a glorified physical body?
Serving Zion
Member
Do you envisage that heaven is a physical place that you have to go into the sky before you can find it? Do you remember the transfiguration in Matthew 17? In that moment, Jesus was seen with the prophet Elijah, which indicates that heaven had been manifesting into the physical realm. There is Elisha's experience in 2 Kings 6:16-17, showing that the armies of God are not in the sky but are all around. St. Paul also describes the resurrected body as being a spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:42-49) and Jesus describes in Luke 20:34-36 the resurrected are as angels, just as John 20:26 seems to indicate - having power to manifest physically but also to somehow go through locked doors. This seems to be what St. Paul is preaching too, through 1 Corinthians 15:35-44. "Not all flesh is the same, but there is one flesh of human beings, and another flesh of animals, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish, and heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly bodies is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly bodies is of another kind."
BondservantRom6:22
Member
I have read Matthew 17 however this transpires prior to the resurrection. One can argue that perhaps Jesus was not what we believe to be the only physical form but instead while still a physical form capable of much more than we are limited to here on earth. The reason I claim it was still a physical body is not only because He was seen in this new body but this body was also touched.
John 20:27-28 Then He said to Thomas , " Reach your finger here, and look at My Hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."
LovethroughDove
Member
I drew a diagram for God. The Holy Spirit is interacting with all that is God.
The spirit realm is indeed all around us.
However, the third heaven or highest heaven is where Jesus ascended.
It’s also where John was caught to, and recorded the book of Revelation based on his experience there.
JLB
Getting back to the OP. What is the evidence that Jesus was God?
God, the Son, is regarded as God. He has the attributes of deity:
(1) Eternity (Jn 1:15; 8:58; 17:5, 24);
(2) Omniscience - all-knowing (Jn 2:24-25; 16:30; 21:17);
(3) Omnipresence - present at every point in the universe with his whole being (Mt 18:20; 28:20; Jn 3:13);
(4) Omnipotence. ‘I am the Almighty’ (Rev 1:8; Heb 1:3; Mt 28:18);
(5) Immutable - does not change (Heb 1:12; 13:8);
(6) He does the actions of deity:
Oz
God, the Son, is regarded as God. He has the attributes of deity:
(1) Eternity (Jn 1:15; 8:58; 17:5, 24);
(2) Omniscience - all-knowing (Jn 2:24-25; 16:30; 21:17);
(3) Omnipresence - present at every point in the universe with his whole being (Mt 18:20; 28:20; Jn 3:13);
(4) Omnipotence. ‘I am the Almighty’ (Rev 1:8; Heb 1:3; Mt 28:18);
(5) Immutable - does not change (Heb 1:12; 13:8);
(6) He does the actions of deity:
- creator (Jn 1:3; Heb 1:10; Col 1:16);
- holds things together (Col 1:17; Heb 1:3);
- forgives sin (Mt 9:2, 6);
- raises the dead (Jn 6:39-40, 54; 11:25; 20:25, 28);
- he will be the Judge (Jn 5:22) believers (2 Cor 5:10), Antichrist and his followers (Rev 19:15), the nations (Ac 17:31), Satan (Gen 3:15) and the living and the dead (Ac 10:42).
Oz