Christ_empowered
Member
Against the death penalty. I think we should allow prisoners to kill themselves, because I think suicide is a civil right.
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Do You Support Capital Punishment? (Death For Certain Crimes)
- Thread starter JAG ..
- Start date
jasonc
Member
Forgiveness doesn't include .
Allowing a felon convicted of sexual crimes to teach children ,per state law no felon can,not even in Sunday school.
Own a firearm in some states,serve our country ,be in law enforcement .
I have forgiven my sister rapist but he will never be allowed near kids,my grandkids .no church would allow it .its temptation,can't just go by their I won't do it again promise .
He raped my sister when she was 12 and never served ,she waited too long to report it .
So any former violet felon ,murderer won't be in a nursery ,working as a minister ,he simply can't in the state if he is arrounf children.
Life sentences for minors who murder can't go past 30 years,imagine a 45 year old murderer whose life has only known the prison system .not like he would be hired .
jasonc
Member
Huh?
So issues them a gun and bullet ?pills.
You haven't studied on how slow it takes the so called suicide pill to work ,hours.not seconds.
Hardly compassion.and merciful.
Thing a slow long seizure .
"In truth, opposition to the death penalty stems from hatred of innocent people."__Tertul
That's truly beyond any doubt an amazing and fascinating position to hold and advance.
My motive in tending to be against the Death Penalty is as follows:
"If you forgive other people when they sin against you, your Heavenly Father
will also forgive you. But if you do NOT forgive others their sins, your Father
will NOT forgive your sins."___The Lord Jesus Matthew 6:14-15
If someone murdered my loved ones, would it not be more in keeping
with Matthew 6:14-15 for me to desire that they be given a life sentence in prison
and thereby an opportunity to repent of their crime and their sin against me, and
come to know the Lord Jesus as their Savior?
A significant number of prison inmates DO become true born again Christians. There are several Christian Prison Ministries that are quite successful and have many converts to the Lord Jesus -- not possible if they are dead.
There is nothing unreasonable about that up there.
I do not hate innocent people. I love them. In fact I do my best to love all human beings. (1 Corinthians chapter 13 tells me to do this)
"It's part of the liberal's general opposition to treating criminals as criminals as opposed to heroes "__Tertul
Just for the record I am a born again Christian and a very strong Conservative. I and my entire family are Republicans and we have always voted for the Republican Party. I support without any reservations Conservatism and Family Values. My wife and I attend a Bible Believing Baptist Church.
The following is NOT inconsistent with being a strong Conservative:
"Life in prison, or other shorter prison sentences, allows the possibility that innocent
people, later proven to be innocent, can be allowed to at least have some kind of
life restored to them."___JAG
"I've not heard of an innocent person being executed in the last half century. What information do you have that I don't have?"___Tertul
Start quote.
More than 4 percent of inmates sentenced to death in the United States are probably innocent, according to a study published Monday that sent shock waves across the anti-death penalty community.
What the researchers call a “conservative estimate” about the number of wrongfully convicted death row inmates is more than double the percentage of capital defendants who were exonerated during more than three decades that were studied. That means innocent people are languishing behind bars, according to the study.
“The great majority of innocent people who are sentenced to death are never identified and freed,” said Samuel Gross, lead author of the study and a University of Michigan Law School professor, in a statement. “The purpose of our study is to account for the innocent defendants who are not exonerated.”
The four authors reviewed the outcomes of the 7,482 death sentences handed down from 1973 to 2004. Of that group, 117, or 1.6 percent, were exonerated.
Shocking Number Of Innocent People Sentenced To Death, Study Finds
Shocking Number Of Innocent People Sentenced To Death, Study Finds
117 human beings who received death sentences were later exonerated.
"I see that the NT teaches God created three institutions, the church, the family and the government. So if the government (servant of God) decides the death penalty is suitable for a particular crime as murder, then would I be fighting against God if I am against the death penalty, cf Romans 13:4?"__Ernest T. Bass
Earnest, what are your thoughts on the following points?
JAG Writes:
To the best of my knowledge the New Testament does not command the Death Penalty for any crime. There is no verse in the New Testament that specifically says that the Death Penalty is either right or wrong, or should or should not be instituted.
Romans 13 says that the authorities (the government) have been established by God and that the authorities do not "bear the sword for nothing." (Romans 13:4) Paul does NOT explain what he means when he said they do not "bear the sword for nothing."
My view is that it is impossible to demonstrate with certainty that Paul was saying that the authorities have God's approval to impose the Death Penalty merely because Paul said that the authorities did not "bear the sword for nothing."
They do not "bear the sword for nothing" can easily mean ONLY that the authorities have God's approval to punish evil-doers. The text does NOT say what kind of punishment they have God's approval to inflict upon evil-doers. One can speculate about this, but there is NOT a clear and certain word from God on this issue in Romans chapter 13. Its all going to be merely personal speculation and personal opinions.
So if you interpret they do not "bear the sword for nothing" to be a specific reference to applying the Death Penalty you do that without any clear and certain Biblical warrant for that interpretation. Also, to be consistent, you would have to hold that the authorities had to use an actual sword when they applied the Death Penalty. The text says "sword" it does NOT say "lethal injection" or "gas chamber" or "hanging" etc.
So the question is raised. What does Romans 13 say about what killing method the authorities all allowed by God to use when they kill a person convicted of a Capital Crime? My view is that Romans 13 says nothing about the method to be used and therefore says nothing about the Death Penalty.
"Acts 25:11 "For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar. "
Paul here is saying some crimes are "worthy of death"."__Ernest T. Bass
Hello again Ernest,
My view of Acts 25:11 is that Paul was only recognizing the laws of Rome. At that time Paul lived under Roman Law and was therefore subject to the laws of Rome. Paul nowhere said or even implied that he approved of the laws of Rome. Therefore my view is that Acts 25:11 is NOT a proof text showing that God approves of the Death Penalty for we today who live under the truths and guidelines of the New Testament.
Ernest T. Bass
Member
The NT does not command the death penalty but does not condemn it either. But since the government is a Divine institution and that Divine institution sees that the death penalty is equitable punishment for certain crimes, then I have no problem with it. "Bear the word" is a way of saying the gov't has the right to keep law and order which includes punishment against criminals and in the US does it include the death penalty. A sword is used for killing.
[QUOTE="Ernest T. Bass, post: 1565008, member: 262]
Christ admits Pilate had the power to put Him to death, but Christ's point was that power, authority to put one to death came from God and not Pilate (not man).[/quote]
"Christ admits Pilate had the power to put Him to death, but Christ's point was that power, authority to put one to death came from God and not Pilate (not man)."__Ernest T. Bass
My view of what the Lord Jesus said to Pilate is that He was only recognizing the laws of Rome. At that time the Lord Jesus lived under Roman Law and was therefore subject to the laws of Rome. The Lord Jesus nowhere said or even implied that he approved of the laws of Rome. Therefore my view is that the statement of the Lord Jesus about Pilate having the authority to put one to death is NOT a proof text showing that God approves of the Death Penalty for we today who live under the truths and guidelines of the New Testament.
Christ admits Pilate had the power to put Him to death, but Christ's point was that power, authority to put one to death came from God and not Pilate (not man).[/quote]
"Christ admits Pilate had the power to put Him to death, but Christ's point was that power, authority to put one to death came from God and not Pilate (not man)."__Ernest T. Bass
My view of what the Lord Jesus said to Pilate is that He was only recognizing the laws of Rome. At that time the Lord Jesus lived under Roman Law and was therefore subject to the laws of Rome. The Lord Jesus nowhere said or even implied that he approved of the laws of Rome. Therefore my view is that the statement of the Lord Jesus about Pilate having the authority to put one to death is NOT a proof text showing that God approves of the Death Penalty for we today who live under the truths and guidelines of the New Testament.
"The NT does not command the death penalty but does not condemn it either."__Ernest T. Bass
Agreed.
And thank you for your thoughtful replies -- much appreciated.
`
"Your wisdom goes against God's wisdom. God thought the testimony of two witnesses is sufficient to execute someone."__Tertul
Tertul,
I respectfully disagree with you that "the testimony of two witnesses" applies to us today who live under the truths and guidelines of the New Testament. The "two witnesses" rule was for Old Testament times only. For proof see below:
My view is that this below must be faced squarely because it is clearly and certainly the absolute truth.
JAG Writes.
I am reasonably certain that no one would appeal to the Old Testament for their authority to believe that God does approve of the Death Penalty for we who are now living under the guidelines and truths of the New Testament. Why not? Because those Old Testament Death Penalty laws obviously do NOT apply to us today.
Here is why they don't apply to us today:
(A) "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death" Exodus 21:17
(B) If anyone fails to confine a dangerous bull known to gore and the owner has been warned and fails to keep the bull penned up, then the text says that the owner of the bull "must be put to death." (The passage does allow the man to redeem his life with a money payment under certain conditions.) Exodus 21:28-30
(C) "Whoever does any work on the Sabbath Day must be put to death." Exodus 31:12
Summing up.
(1) The New Testament does NOT have a clear and certain verse where God has instituted the Death Penalty for we who live under the guidelines and truths of the New Testament.
(2) If you appeal to the Old Testament, then to be consistent, you would be forced to advocate the Death Penalty for "anyone who curses his father or mother" Exodus 21:17 and whoever "does any work on the Sabbath Day" Exodus 31:12 Advocating this would be totally irrational.
Death by stoning:
Leviticus 24:16 says that anyone who blasphemes the name of God must be put to death and that the entire assembly must stone him to death.
It would be unthinkable for we Christians here in the 22nd century to advocate and support the United States Government taking people who blaspheme God's name to a place where they would then be stoned to death.
"Against the death penalty. I think we should allow prisoners to kill themselves, because I think suicide is a civil right."__Christ_empowered
Hello CE,
Are you sure you want to hold that position? Holding that seems to be very difficult to harmonize with the Principle Of Love which is a core principle of the New Testament.
People who have made serious major sinful mistakes (and haven't we all) need our help. And anyone in prison and thinking about killing themselves needs someone to help them come to know the Lord Jesus as their Savior and they can't come to do that if they are dead.
l Corinthians 13: 7 says [love] "always protects." So we have to help people who are in prison. There are several Christian Prison Ministries that do successfully help prison inmates to come to know the Lord Jesus as their Savior. And again they cannot do that if the prison inmates are allowed to kill themselves --- or if they are killed by the state.
God bless.
Christ_empowered
Member
i think you are correct. my line of thinking was that it seems a bit ridiculous to have the death penalty in place, but put people in prison on 'suicide watch' on a fairly regular basis. but...that's worldly thinking, isn't it? '...hold every thought captive to Christ...'
thanks.
thanks.
CE,
I understand.
And you're welcome my friend.
And thanks for the clarification and for your thoughts on this issue.
Since you are quoting Jesus to rationalize your position, you would be reminded that you and Jesus are on opposite sides of this issue. The death penalty was common in Jesus' day. Jesus knew he would be wrongfully executed. God ordained the death penalty, with two witnesses, for a number of crimes.
Unless you're the one murdered, it's not your place to forgive a murderer.
This isn't an issue about forgiveness. It's about protecting the innocent, of which DP opponents only seem to care about when the "innocent" person is a convicted killer.
Yet, you've shown zero compassion for the many thousands of innocent murder victims. Yet, you oppose the most effective tool in saving innocent people in the future. You even oppose the most effective way to prevent innocent people from being convicted. These points don't even enter into your math.
You said, "We have executed innocent people several times." I then called you out for your false statement. Your source doesn't claim that even one innocent person has been executed. And, so what if a few innocent people were convicted, that's far better than what you want, thousands upon thousands of deaths of totally innocent people at the hands of murderers.
i support the death penalty %100 it takes well over 20 years to bring it to pass. yes i am sure there might be innocent on death row. but %80 of all inmates are innocent . many of them know the law as well as a lawyer . you can be forgiven but still pay for the crime. i have family who was murdered in 1973 took out tied to a tree shot execution style . the main one who did the murder is still in .there was three of them. 1 died the other is out..
suicide is not God way it appointed to man once to die..
Truthfrees,
The OT commanded the death penalty: 'Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind' (Gen 9:6 NIV). The reason is clear. Human beings are made in the image of God and the guilt is on the shoulders of the murderer, hence capital punishment.
What about the NT?
There is a suggestion of capital punishment ('the sword') here, but the specifics are missing. It does not state that 'the sword' is used for murder or any other punishment, e.g. rape.
Oz
"Your source doesn't claim that even one innocent person has been executed"__Tertul
Start quote.
1. Cameron Todd Willingham—In 1992, Willingham was convicted of arson murder in Texas. He was believed to have intentionally set a fire that killed his three kids. In 2004, he was put to death. Unfortunately, the Texas Forensic Science Commission later found that the evidence was misinterpreted, and they concluded that none of the evidence used against Willingham was valid. As it turns out, the fire really was accidental.
________
2. Ruben Cantu—Cantu was 17 at the time the crime he was alleged of committing took place. Cantu was convicted of capital murder, and in 1993, the Texas teen was executed. About 12 years after his death, investigations show that Cantu likely didn’t commit the murder. The lone eyewitness recanted his testimony, and Cantu’s co-defendant later admitted he allowed his friend to be falsely accused. He says Cantu wasn’t even there the night of the murder.
______
3. Larry Griffin—Griffin was put to death in 1995 for the 1981 murder of Quintin Moss, a Missouri drug dealer. Griffin always maintained his innocence, and now, evidence seems to indicate he was telling the truth. The first police officer on the scene now says the eyewitness account was false, even though the officer supported the claims during the trial. Another eyewitness who was wounded during the attack was never contacted during the trial, and he says Griffin wasn’t present at the crime scene that night.
_________
4. Carlos DeLuna—In 1989, DeLuna was executed for the stabbing of a Texas convenience store clerk. Almost 20 years later, Chicago Tribune uncovered evidence that shows DeLuna was likely innocent. The evidence showed that Carlos Hernandez, a man who even confessed to the murder many times, actually did the crime.
_______
6. Jesse Tafero—In 1976, Tafero was convicted of murdering a state trooper. He and Sonia Jacobs were both sentenced to death for the crime. The main evidence used to convict them was testimony by someone else who was involved in the crime, ex-convict Walter Rhodes. Rhodes gave this testimony in exchange for a life sentence. In 1990, Tafero was put to death. Two years later, his companion Jacobs was released due to a lack of evidence…the same evidence used to put Tafero to death.
End quote.
_______
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