Infant Immersion

[Doug Brents]

I am a new member here, and I was just rereading through the "statement of faith" at the top of the forums. I have a problem with the line where it says, "those [immersed] as infants will not be excluded."

Immersion of an infant does nothing other than get the infant wet, and possibly angry. The passage cited as support for accepting infants who were immersed excludes them rather emphatically in saying "make disciples, and immerse them ..." You cannot make a disciple of someone who does not understand what you are talking about (an infant). They do not understand the need for salvation. They do not understand what sin is. They do not even understand the difference between right and wrong.

 

[JohnDB]

Infant baptisms are more about christening than a "believer's Baptism".
But that doesn't mean that if a person believes in a baptism they had as an infant that it is ineffectual.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, as a demonstration of dedication I have no objection to presenting an infant to the congregation and anointing them with oil, or other such signs of committment. I did that with both of my girls.

However, it very much is ineffectual to immerse (and even more so to sprinkle or pour which have no value to anyone) when it comes to salvation. What does Scripture say is required to be saved?

Repentance: an infant cannot repent, because that is a decision to change direction. They don't know what direction they are going, don't understand the difference between right and wrong, and don't have the mental faculties to make that decision.

Confess the name of Jesus: an infant cannot confess Jesus' name because most of the time infant "baptism" occurs before the infant can even speak.

Be immersed: Yes, an infant can be immersed, but if they have not yet done the two things above, then they just get wet, just like you or I would if we did not believe the Gospel, repent, and confess Jesus' as our Lord.

Infant immersion is worthless in any way toward salvation. And a person who was "baptized" as an infant must come to their own faith, repent, confess, and be immersed as an adult or they remain lost.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am a new member here, and I was just rereading through the "statement of faith" at the top of the forums. I have a problem with the line where it says, "those [immersed] as infants will not be excluded."

Immersion of an infant does nothing other than get the infant wet, and possibly angry. The passage cited as support for accepting infants who were immersed excludes them rather emphatically in saying "make disciples, and immerse them ..." You cannot make a disciple of someone who does not understand what you are talking about (an infant). They do not understand the need for salvation. They do not understand what sin is. They do not even understand the difference between right and wrong.

I have a question for you:
Do you believe baptism is REAL?
Does the Holy Spirit somehow infuse that baby in some way?
Or is baptism just a ritual we go through that means nothing other than to show others that
we've accepted God and are new born again Christians as Jesus stated we should be in John 3:3, 5.

Have you ever wondered if the early church baptized infants?
Or why?

 

[Doug Brents]

No, children were not considered part of the household until they were about 12 or 13, like Jesus when He was presented to the Temple at age 12. Children of that age were considered adults at that point, but still under their parent's authority until age 30, which is why Jesus began His ministry at that age.

Yes, immersion is real, and not just to show people something that already occurred (because it hasn't occurred until we are immersed). Rom 6:1-5 and Col 2:11-15 are pretty clear and explicit that the Holy Spirit does the work of removing our sins, and uniting us with Christ, and adding us to the Body of Christ (the Church), and resurrecting our soul from the death caused by sin when we are immersed while calling on Jesus' name (Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, and others).

And no, the Spirit does not infuse an infant. Infants have not believed the Gospel, repented of sins (which they have not yet committed), or confessed the Name of Jesus, so immersion only gets them wet.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, children were not considered part of the household until they were about 12 or 13, like Jesus when He was presented to the Temple at age 12. Children of that age were considered adults at that point, but still under their parent's authority until age 30, which is why Jesus began His ministry at that age.

Yes, immersion is real, and not just to show people something that already occurred (because it hasn't occurred until we are immersed). Rom 6:1-5 and Col 2:11-15 are pretty clear and explicit that the Holy Spirit does the work of removing our sins, and uniting us with Christ, and adding us to the Body of Christ (the Church), and resurrecting our soul from the death caused by sin when we are immersed while calling on Jesus' name (Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, and others).

And no, the Spirit does not infuse an infant. Infants have not believed the Gospel, repented of sins (which they have not yet committed), or confessed the Name of Jesus, so immersion only gets them wet.

I think you're speaking to me.
You have to "tag" a member or they won't know you've replied to them.
If you want to reply to a specific person, just click on the button at the bottom right "reply".
Will get back to you after I get back home.

 

[Doug Brents]

I think you're speaking to me.
You have to "tag" a member or they won't know you've replied to them.
If you want to reply to a specific person, just click on the button at the bottom right "reply".
Will get back to you after I get back home.

Sorry, Wondering. I forgot to quote you. Yes, my response was to your questions.

 

[stovebolts]

I am a new member here, and I was just rereading through the "statement of faith" at the top of the forums. I have a problem with the line where it says, "those [immersed] as infants will not be excluded."

Immersion of an infant does nothing other than get the infant wet, and possibly angry. The passage cited as support for accepting infants who were immersed excludes them rather emphatically in saying "make disciples, and immerse them ..." You cannot make a disciple of someone who does not understand what you are talking about (an infant). They do not understand the need for salvation. They do not understand what sin is. They do not even understand the difference between right and wrong.

Hi Doug,
The past 22 years of my faith have been within the church of Christ. When I put that clause in the Statment of faith, I was thinking of John Mark Hicks book, 'Down in the river to pray'. https://www.amazon.com/Down-River-Pray-Revised-Hicks/dp/0891126481

It is a good read for anyone interested in a well rounded discussion on Baptism.
Here is an article that comes close to discussing what his book says.

Children, Church and Baptism

I recently posted a brief statement on “Children at the Table” in which I suggested that the practice of sharing table communion with our children might be a good idea. One question thi…

johnmarkhicks.com

Thankfully, agreeing with our Statement of Faith is not a requirement to being a member of our site.

 

[Doug Brents]

Hi Doug,
The past 22 years of my faith have been within the church of Christ. When I put that clause in the Statment of faith, I was thinking of John Mark Hicks book, 'Down in the river to pray'. https://www.amazon.com/Down-River-Pray-Revised-Hicks/dp/0891126481

It is a good read for anyone interested in a well rounded discussion on Baptism.
Here is an article that comes close to discussing what his book says.

Children, Church and Baptism

I recently posted a brief statement on “Children at the Table” in which I suggested that the practice of sharing table communion with our children might be a good idea. One question thi…

johnmarkhicks.com

Thankfully, agreeing with our Statement of Faith is not a requirement to being a member of our site.

I read the article, and I think that his response is more along the lines of a father seeking justification for feelings rather than supported by Biblical truth. It is God's mercy that saves any of us, but the same standard must be held for everyone. If a child of a Christian family goes from "safe" to "saved" without ever being "lost", then at what point did that child "sin and fall short of the Glory of God"?

And this article does not in any way address immersing a child when they are infants. It addresses the immersion of younger children, but that is a gray area (as the article says). When is the "age of accountability"? Is it 12, 9, 8 1/2, 3? I believe it is different for each child, but I do believe that all children (even those of Christian parents) goes from safe to lost at some point, and then to saved if they repent and are immersed of their own choice, not because their parents immersed them before they could make up their own mind to do so.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, children were not considered part of the household until they were about 12 or 13, like Jesus when He was presented to the Temple at age 12. Children of that age were considered adults at that point, but still under their parent's authority until age 30, which is why Jesus began His ministry at that age.

Yes, immersion is real, and not just to show people something that already occurred (because it hasn't occurred until we are immersed). Rom 6:1-5 and Col 2:11-15 are pretty clear and explicit that the Holy Spirit does the work of removing our sins, and uniting us with Christ, and adding us to the Body of Christ (the Church), and resurrecting our soul from the death caused by sin when we are immersed while calling on Jesus' name (Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, and others).

And no, the Spirit does not infuse an infant. Infants have not believed the Gospel, repented of sins (which they have not yet committed), or confessed the Name of Jesus, so immersion only gets them wet.

Hi Doug,
If being baptized is something real and solid and not just a sign of belief, then I can understand why infants may be baptized.

Today, right now, I'd say that only adults should be baptized...as you stated all the reason in your O.P.

But when the church was just beginning, the Christian adults had intentions of raising their children as Christians - something we rarely see these days.

They baptized their babies because they wanted them to be part of the family of God and receive the blessings of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and to be a real part of the community of believers.

I know that the CC baptizes infants but they do not teach that they have the Holy Spirit UNLESS they knowingly receive Him at some later age. They explain that it's like the Spirit sleeping until the child wakes Him up and He can begin to be a counsellor to the person.

So, I guess my reply would be that in the early church babies were baptized and the reasons seem good to me...but today I would think that it does not make too much sense.

I'm linking what some Early Church Fathers believed about this practice.
It changed in the 400's but I'm not sure you're too interested in why.

 

[Doug Brents]

Hi Doug,
If being baptized is something real and solid and not just a sign of belief, then I can understand why infants may be baptized.

Today, right now, I'd say that only adults should be baptized...as you stated all the reason in your O.P.

But when the church was just beginning, the Christian adults had intentions of raising their children as Christians - something we rarely see these days.

They baptized their babies because they wanted them to be part of the family of God and receive the blessings of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and to be a real part of the community of believers.

I know that the CC baptizes infants but they do not teach that they have the Holy Spirit UNLESS they knowingly receive Him at some later age. They explain that it's like the Spirit sleeping until the child wakes Him up and He can begin to be a counsellor to the person.

So, I guess my reply would be that in the early church babies were baptized and the reasons seem good to me...but today I would think that it does not make too much sense.

I'm linking what some Early Church Fathers believed about this practice.
It changed in the 400's but I'm not sure you're too interested in why.

I would definitely be interested in learning why, but I don't believe that the first century Church engaged in this practice. Yes, Scripture says "all in the household" were immersed, but that breads the question, "what did they in the first century consider 'the household'"? From what I have found in my study, an infant all the way up until they were 12 or 13, was not considered part of the household.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would definitely be interested in learning why, but I don't believe that the first century Church engaged in this practice. Yes, Scripture says "all in the household" were immersed, but that breads the question, "what did they in the first century consider 'the household'"? From what I have found in my study, an infant all the way up until they were 12 or 13, was not considered part of the household.

Sounds like you've studied some church history so I hope we can agree that the Catholic Church IS the first church and kept heresies out of the church. It went wrong along the way, but that's another discussion.

Along that way came Augustine in about the year 400AD.

Until then children were baptized...this is confirmed in writings...it most probably is not what the Apostles and Jesus meant, but for the aforementioned reasons, children were baptized.

Augustine was the first to teach the doctrine of predestination and had an entirely different view on Original Sin. He taught that because of O.S. persons would go to hell unless they were baptized. This was never a taught before although O.S. was known and taught. So children began to be baptized as soon as possible after birth in case they should die.
This is the opposite of what had been happening....
Many waited to be on their death bed to be baptized because it was believed that sin would be washed away and there was no remedy yet for sinning after baptism -- which turned out to be confession as in the CC.

If you could add anything I'd be happy to hear it...church history is interesting.
But it's almost midnight here...tomorrow.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

My .02 cents;

Mark 16:16 Jesus made belief a prerequisite to being baptized. Infants have not yet developed the mental ability/capacity nor the reasoning skills to have faith (see also Hebrews 11:6, repentance, confession and baptism must done in faith to be accepting to God.)

Acts 16:32-33 "And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house."
Acts 11:14 "Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved."
Acts 18:8 "And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized."
--infants do have the language skills, much less reasoning ability, to understand words that are spoken therefore unable to believe.


The purpose of baptism is "for remission of sins" Acts 2:38. Infants/small children have no sins to be remitted but are in a neutral, safe state before God.

Romans 7:8-9 Paul speaks about a time when he was without sin then later in his life sin sprang up in him for he became accountable to God having learned right from wrong. Isa 7:15-16; Deut 1:39.

Under the OT law, physical birth into Jewish family and a physical circumcision the 8th day put one into a covenant relationship with God. Then as one grew matured he was taught about God and His law.
But under the NT one must first be taught and "know the Lord" (Heb 8:10-11) then he can be spiritually born (water baptism, a circumcision made without hands) into NT covenant relationship with God.

 

[jerry63935]

Do you believe baptism is REAL?
Does the Holy Spirit somehow infuse that baby in some way?
Or is baptism just a ritual we go through that means nothing other than to show others that

real yes
infuse as in how or what?
a ritual we go through? no its important but follow salvation . ECF may have done a lot of things but i follow the Bible

 

[WIP]

Mark 16:16 Jesus made belief a prerequisite to being baptized.

I don't necessarily agree with this premise. Many use this verse for this purpose but that is not what is written. The word "and" is not an indicator of an order of events. It is a conjunction joining the events.

If my wife calls me at work and tells me to pick up a loaf of bread and a gallon of milk, does it matter that I pick up the milk first or last? All she is interested in is that I get both.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I don't necessarily agree with this premise. Many use this verse for this purpose but that is not what is written. The word "and" is not an indicator of an order of events. It is a conjunction joining the events.

If my wife calls me at work and tells me to pick up a loaf of bread and a gallon of milk, does it matter that I pick up the milk first or last? All she is interested in is that I get both.

Hi,

But why would an unbeliever want to be baptized? How would an unbeliever even know anything about baptism (or repentance and confession)? An unbeliever may have never heard of the Bible nor of Jesus Christ and does not even realize he is lost in sin. Baptism is not possible for an unbeliever.

Besides, what is not done is faith is not pleasing to God Heb 11:6.

John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

The "and" makes both hearing and believing equally a requirement to everlasting life with hearing coming before believing for one cannot believe what he has not heard/one cannot believe what he does not know about... (Romans 10:14)

Infants would know nothing about nor be able to have any understanding of either belief or baptism.

 

[GodsGrace]

real yes
infuse as in how or what?
a ritual we go through? no its important but follow salvation . ECF may have done a lot of things but i follow the Bible

Jerry,
The Early Church Fathers are the ones that put the bible together.
There WAS NO bible at the time that I'm speaking of...the letters
were circulating the churches of that time.

Infuse in the sense that the Holy Spirit could be in the child until he reaches the age of reason.
We can't be really sure about this. At the age of reason, the child does have to accept God on his own. Remember that in the time I'm speaking of, Christians were serious about their religion...they died for it, including many children that died horrible deaths because of this new religion. Maybe the Holy Spirit gave them strength --- I just can't be sure.

But I do agree with you that nowadays we should follow what is taught in the bible.
Salvation
Baptism

 

[jerry63935]

The Early Church Fathers are the ones that put the bible together.

i just dont agree with infant baptism .i never have never will .far to many think it saves them.

 

[GodsGrace]

i just dont agree with infant baptism .i never have never will .far to many think it saves them.

I don't know of a church that teaches this.
If this is what they think, then they've been misguided by either their church or just their own misunderstanding.

Some catholics think they're saved because they're baptized.
But the CC does not teach this.

 

[Doug Brents]

I don't know of a church that teaches this.
If this is what they think, then they've been misguided by either their church or just their own misunderstanding.

Some catholics think they're saved because they're baptized.
But the CC does not teach this.

The Bible teaches that when we have believed in the Gospel, repented of our sins, and confessed the Name of Jesus as Lord, and are then immersed into water, at that point the Blood of Christ is applied to us, the Holy Spirit cuts our sins from us, we are added to the Church, and we are resurrected with Christ to a new life (Acts 2:38, Col 2:11-15, Rom 6:1-6, Acts 22:16, Eph 5:25-26, and others).

The water does not save. There is no mystical power in "holy water". The power is in the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ, our belief in it, and our obedience to God's commands in Scripture (faith). It is the Spirit of God that "saves" us, but He does not do so until we meet Him in the water of immersion.