But then you're saying that it's the water that saves.
Two questions:
What does John 3:5 refer to when speaking of water?
If I become a believer today, and die next week and have not been baptized...
what is my fate?
Infant Immersion
- Thread starter Doug Brents
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Two questions:
What does John 3:5 refer to when speaking of water?
If I become a believer today, and die next week and have not been baptized...
what is my fate?
i go by justification declared righteous /not guilty just as if we had never sinned. my only part on baptism is it has no saving power. redemption comes through Christ . i have had many discussions on this. Baptism i see as symbolic but yet sacred growing i can remember my bro and his wife wanted to be baptized. the preacher put on a pair of waders that came to his chest. it was almost a mockery as he was not serious...i was raised in the UMC .they did more sprinkling than immersion , at some point later they decided to get baptized again in a more serious righteous time frame. , symbolic in obedience following christ a public declaration and symbolic of the old man going under and the new man coming up. . i see baptism as sacred same as communion
not doug.. personally i see it referring to the washing and regeneration of the word Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, the word is spiritual sharper than a two edged sword .
i dont ask any one to jump on my bandwagon in agreement .
But they are still baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Is more needed once they believe?
Where does the Bible specifically teach that immersion always happens after all those other things you mentioned?
Ephesians 5:26
that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,
this is the scripture i should have used
I'm convinced that baptism is for adult believers. I also had a conversation with a Lutheran theologian who explained their position. I can see where they are coming from. I still don't agree, neither will I seek to burn him at the stake as a heretic. Division is a great curse in the Body of Christ. Surely we can agree to disagree?
I agreed with you right up to the last sentence. Acts 10:47 contradicts your statement.
It would not matter for if one does not understand why he is being baptized then he is just getting wet and nothing more.
One verse I have cited already Hebrews 11:6..if it is not done in faith it is not pleasing to God. Those that come to worship God (infants cannot do this) must have faith that God exist (not possible for infants) and must have faith that God rewards those who seek Him (infants cannot do this either).
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Col 2:12 "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." When one is baptized, God does the work of removing the body of sin and one must have faith in God doing this work. Hence baptism is a necessary part of faith meaning baptism is not effective if the one being baptized does not have the conviction in God removing sin and that Christ commanded one to be baptized.
"Not the faith which God works, but your faith in God's working: faith in God's energy as displayed in Christ's resurrection. Hence the emphasis which is laid on faith in the resurrection." Vincent Word Studies.
Therefore the resurrection of Christ must convince the one being baptized that God can for a fact remit, forgive, take away sins. Submitting to baptism being proof of the conviction of the person being baptized that God can remove sins.
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Being baptized is a choice one must make for himself not a choice one person makes for another. One being baptized must make the resolve he is no longer going to live the life of the old sinful man (Romans 6:2,6; Gal 5:24), which infants cannot do.
1 Cor 6:11 Paul said of those Corinthians "ye were washed" with washed being in the middle voice. Paul is saying 'ye had yourselves washed" a conscience choice they made for themselves. Those that obeyed Peter's command to be baptized (Acts 2:38) made that choice for themselves, no one can obey a command for another or force another to obey a command. (An aside: the language Peter used does not allow for proxy baptism.)
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The phrase "in the name of" means by the authority of. Where in the NT does God-Christ-Holy Spirit authorize the baptism of infants?
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Lastly, the purpose of baptism is for remission of sins and infants have no sin to be remitted.
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The prayers offered are to the Lord. How do you know Jesus does nothing?
Jesus "blessed" the children brought to Him despite the objections of the disciples.
One day some parents brought their children to Jesus so he could touch and bless them. But the disciples scolded the parents for bothering him.
When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” And he took the children in his arms, placed his hands on them and blessed them.
I don't think you have the right to object. Besides the baptism is a beginning. I was baptized as a infant. To this day I call Jesus Lord and I now have white hair.
but baptism did not give you the right to call him Lord . justification take place first a infant does not understand that nor do they need to. there has to be conscience understanding romans 10:9-10 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
Let me clarify immersion or sprinkling I care not.
The sacrament is considered holy and is between the parent in behalf of their child and the Lord in this case. Prayers are offered to the Lord. In that context its not for you or any man to object. And its usually just a beginning of the journey.
I agree with you in that its a personal relationship that must be developed between the believer and the Lord. Hence its usually followed at a later date with confirmation.
Between denominations and the theologies of man this simple declaration, (that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved) can become long, wide and deep.
I see the infant baptism as a parent asking the Lord to bless their child. Others see it as a act into the kingdom of God. But its clear to me we just can't state its worthless as in Jesus does nothing and speak against it. As the child is being brought before the Lord with prayers. Its considered "Holy".
once again i go by scriptures that is what i base off .if someone can show scripture the need for infant baptism ,then i will gladly change my position.
i am %100 for dedicating a child to the Lord and we raise the child up in church.so that latter on in life they will be saved
Hi Doug,
again, if your interested in why I worded the Statement of Faith that way, please pick up his book for a fuller explanation.
you are entitled to disagree, and I’m ok with that as long as it doesn’t create a spirit of division. I’m not going to change that section of our SOF and you do not need to accept it to be a viable member.
I disagree. The gifts of belief and grace that come through baptism are an act of God and not man. Yes, we may go through the motion of baptizing with water but it is God that imparts the gifts. We don't baptize to please God. We baptize at all stages of life including infancy through adulthood because God tells us to. Beyond that, it is in His hands.
Here's Luther's explanation from his small Catechism. This is what I believe to be true.
Luther’s Small Catechism by Dr. Martin Luther
Martin Luther addresses faithful and godly pastors and preachers in his Preface to the Small Catechism.
catechism.cph.org
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i read it to what i seen for the most agreed mainly on the point from safe to saved. i was in a church service where i young girl my guess around 6 or older. come to the pastor wanting to be saved. he gave the safe story. if God is dealing with a child and they ask about salvation. then we as adults should explain it and if need lead them to salvation. what i did ilke about the author he never claimed water baptism saved..
the highlighted portion i am in agree with. if not careful we take what thus saith the denom over what saith the Lord in scripture . if scripture dont say it. leave it alone
Also consider Matthew 18:2-7 (NKJV)
2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them,
3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
6 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!
How little were those little ones? Were they 16, 12, 8, 5, or even as young as 2? We do not know but when I read these words I find in the context, "little child," to be very easy to believe they were likely quite young.
The Bible requires one have to faith prior to being baptized. No one, infants or adults, can be scripturally water baptized while in unbelief. Infants do not have any sin nor are they capable of having faith nor does God "gift" faith to infants or anyone else in the sense one can only have faith if God gives it to him.I disagree. The gifts of belief and grace that come through baptism are an act of God and not man. Yes, we may go through the motion of baptizing with water but it is God that imparts the gifts. We don't baptize to please God. We baptize at all stages of life including infancy through adulthood because God tells us to. Beyond that, it is in His hands.
Here's Luther's explanation from his small Catechism. This is what I believe to be true.
Luther’s Small Catechism by Dr. Martin Luther
Martin Luther addresses faithful and godly pastors and preachers in his Preface to the Small Catechism.
Such an idea makes God culpable for the faithless. Romans 10:17 faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God. Faith is something one develops "in the heart"(Romans 10:9).
I did not see anything in the link that Biblically proves infants should be baptized.
In the context, Christ's disciples were arguing over which one would be the greatest in the kingdom. An argument due to arrogance and pride. Jesus brings a child before them and tells them "except ye turn" ...meaning they would have to repent of this attitude to have a place in the kingdom. Then Jesus explains that they would have to take on certain traits that children have to enter the kingdom. Those disciples would have to become "like" children.
These disciples would have to repent/change of their wrong in their arguing and become "like" children in humility. Therefore when Jesus speaks of "these little that believe in Me" He is not referring to children age wise but refers to those disciples that have a child like faith, those that have humility in their heart. Those with humility will repent.
Even John Gill says of Mt 18:6"
"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones,.... Not in age, but are little and mean in their own eyes, and contemptible in the esteem of the world; though otherwise men of great grace, gifts, and usefulness; who may be said to be offended, when they are not received; their persons despised, their ministry rejected, and they reproached and persecuted; and everything done to them to discourage, and cause them to stumble and fall, to drop their profession of Christ, to quit his service, and desert his cause: and that such persons are designed, appears by the following descriptive character of them,
which believe in me; which cannot be said of infants, or little ones in age, and who also are not capable of offence; but must be understood of adult persons, of such who by faith look unto, lay hold on, and receive the Lord Jesus Christ, as their Saviour and Redeemer, and who make a profession of their faith in him; and chiefly of such who preach the doctrine of faith, who having believed, therefore speak; and who are generally the butt of the contempt, reproach, and persecution of men."
Albert Barnes on Mt 18:6 "These little ones - That is, Christians manifesting the spirit of little children, 1 John 2:1, 1 John 2:12, 1 John 2:18, 1 John 2:28."
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No child that was brought to Jesus did Jesus say those children have sin and commanded those children be baptize. No examples of disciples baptizing children. Jesus simple used various traits possessed by children and said His disciples should possess those same traits.
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