WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[GodsGrace]

This, also, is a correction of understanding, not an outright change to the law:

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor i and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be children of your Father in heaven." - Matthew 5:43-45

Perhaps the saying comes from 1 Chronicles 19:2...

“Should you help the wicked and love (a) those who hate the Lord?" - 2 Chronicles 19:2

The answer to the rhetorical question being, 'no', of course. So you can see how it can be misunderstood to mean you should not love the enemies of God and his people. He did not change the law about how we relate to the wicked. Jesus set them straight on the matter and corrected their misunderstanding.

This is too much of a nuance to argue....
but if Jesus is making something different,,,,,to me that's a change.
What I learned is that when He says
YOU HAVE HEARD IT SAID....
BUT I SAY TO YOU....

He is making a change. If you want to call this a clarification....OK.
But, yes, loving the enemy is a change.
Not being allowed to give a Divorce Certificate is a change----and the reason for this change is very important but can we get into it now? Too late here. And I'll be you know why anyway.

 

[GodsGrace]

We agree that we can recognize the obvious divisions in types of law. But we can not divide up the law in regard to which laws are upheld by faith and which ones are not.

"31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. " - Romans 3:31

ALL of the law is upheld by faith in Christ (all laws minus the rabbinical add-on's, of course). It's just that some laws are upheld through our literal keeping of that law and some are upheld through the work of Christ on the cross. But for all the various categories of law that there are, ALL of them find fulfillment through our faith in Christ, whether literally fulfilled by us, or fulfilled by the work of Christ on the cross.

I understand what you're saying and it's good enough for me.
It's more difficult to understand than what I proffer, but you can't accept what you haven't accepted.

The Law is divided by type. OK.
So why can't we KNOW which ones we still have to keep?
Do we have to keep the civil laws?
Do we have to keep the Ceremonial laws?
Do we have to keep the Moral Law? (the 10 commandments).

I proffer that the Moral Law is the ONLY LAW we are to keep
UNLESS, God shows us that He wants some of us to keep more of the law,,,but this is not generally required.

Have you looked through my links that might be explaining this better?
They even show the TYPES of law and give examples.

Don't you think this is easier than trying to figure out which are to be kept by faith?

 

[jaybo]

I understand what you're saying and it's good enough for me.
It's more difficult to understand than what I proffer, but you can't accept what you haven't accepted.

The Law is divided by type. OK.
So why can't we KNOW which ones we still have to keep?
Do we have to keep the civil laws?
Do we have to keep the Ceremonial laws?
Do we have to keep the Moral Law? (the 10 commandments).

I proffer that the Moral Law is the ONLY LAW we are to keep
UNLESS, God shows us that He wants some of us to keep more of the law,,,but this is not generally required.

Have you looked through my links that might be explaining this better?
They even show the TYPES of law and give examples.

Don't you think this is easier than trying to figure out which are to be kept by faith?

We are not under law but under grace. No OT law applies to Christians; we are dead to the law.

 

[GodsGrace]

We are not under law but under grace. No OT law applies to Christians; we are dead to the law.

Jaybo,,,, I just hope everyone sees your post....
because this is not what Jesus taught.
And when we say the Law is dead we end up with believing it does not apply to us.
How do you get this idea?

Jesus spoke of obeying.....I could list some verses but you probably know them.

So exactly what is it that we're supposed to be obeying?

 

[JLB]

How do I pull in Jeremiah 31-31?
The post is for @JLB but I've said this before and will again.....

Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” Jeremiah 31:31-34


I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt,


Not according to the covenant.... Says it all.


The New Covenant is “not according to the law of Moses” .


JLB

 

[JLB]

The Law of God has not been abolished.

The law of God is eternal.

The law of Moses was temporary.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The New Covenant does not abolish the 10 commandments,,,it just makes it possible for us to keep them better because we have the help of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus confirmed the 10, and even added more.

As I have asked before, please show me the scripture where Jesus or His apostles used the phrase “10 Commandments”, and commanded the Church to observe the Sabbath as the law of Moses required.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” Jeremiah 31:31-34


I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt,


Not according to the covenant.... Says it all.


The New Covenant is “not according to the law of Moses” .


JLB

Agreed.

We can't seem to agree on what the Law of Moses is.

 

[GodsGrace]

The law of God is eternal.

The law of Moses was temporary.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

As I have asked before, please show me the scripture where Jesus or His apostles used the phrase “10 Commandments”, and commanded the Church to observe the Sabbath as the law of Moses required.


JLB

I posted the Rich Young Ruler.
Jesus repeated almost all the commands.
He confirmed the first 4 when he instructed us
to Love God in the 2 Great Commandments.
Jesus ADDED to the commandments, as you have often said.

And, as I've said before....IT IS the 10 commandments.
That's what it is.
They were put into the Ark. The 10 commandments written on stone were put into the Ark.
Paul spoke of keeping the Moral Law in all of his letters.

I can't say more than this.
I don't understand why you have a problem with saying The Ten Commandments.
I think there was even a movie by that name with Chuck Heston.
They're listed in Exodus 20 or 21.

WHY do you have a problem with calling a rose a rose?

 

[JLB]

Agreed.

We can't seem to agree on what the Law of Moses is.

the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt,

 

[JLB]

And, as I've said before....IT IS the 10 commandments.
That's what it is.

As I have asked before, please show me the scripture where Jesus or His apostles used the phrase “10 Commandments”, and commanded the Church to observe the Sabbath as the law of Moses required.



And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering. Numbers 28:9-10


This is the requirement of the 4th Commandment under the law of Moses.


This is one of the “10 Commandments“.







JLB

 

[JLB]

I posted the Rich Young Ruler.
Jesus repeated almost all the commands.

almost being the correct word.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Jaybo,,,, I just hope everyone sees your post....
because this is not what Jesus taught.
And when we say the Law is dead we end up with believing it does not apply to us.
How do you get this idea?

Jesus spoke of obeying.....I could list some verses but you probably know them.

So exactly what is it that we're supposed to be obeying?

The purpose of the Law was to show us that we could not keep it.....we MUST have a Savior! Born Again Christians have something much better than the “ weak and useless” Law ( Paul’s Words, not mine ).....we have the Indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us now— if we will let it. It takes Trust—- THAT is what God is looking for......God Bless........

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We are not under law but under grace. No OT law applies to Christians;

Not even this one?:

18“ ‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord." - Leviticus 19:18

"8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” a you are doing right." - James 2:8

...we are dead to the law.

What does that mean?
We know it can't mean we don't have to keep any of the law; for example, Leviticus 19:18.
So what does it mean that we are 'dead to the law' (Romans 7:4,Galatians 2:19)?
It means a couple of things, but it doesn't mean "No OT law applies to Christians".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The purpose of the Law was to show us that we could not keep it.....we MUST have a Savior!

Exactly right.

Born Again Christians have something much better than the “ weak and useless” Law ( Paul’s Words, not mine )...

Yes, we have something better than mere written words. But to do what?

...we have the Indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us now...

Guide us into what?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It takes Trust—- THAT is what God is looking for...

Trust him for what?

 

[JLB]

Yes, we have something better than mere written words. But to do what?

To obey Jesus Christ; ie to “walk”, that is to say, live our life according to the Spirit, rather than being a slave to the sin that dwells in our flesh.


We have a new divine nature that is compatible with the Holy Spirit to dwell in, so as to lead us and guide us into all truth, and empowering us to practice righteousness rather than practicing the works of the flesh.


To sum it up, we are now given the power to rule in dominion over the lustful desires of our flesh so that we can love our neighbor as ourselves, which is how we love God.


If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also. 1 John 4:20-21


The righteous requirement of the law is obedience; to obey God in loving our neighbor as ourself.


This is the thing we are required to do.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Law is divided by type. OK.

Yes, mame, the law is divided up by type of laws. This is not where we disagree.

So why can't we KNOW which ones we still have to keep?

We can know which ones we still have to keep.
I'm not putting forth any argument that we can't.

Do we have to keep the civil laws?

By 'keep' I'm going to assume you mean 'have to keep literally'.
Yes, we do have to literally keep some civil laws.

Do we have to keep the Ceremonial laws?

Not literally.
Unless conscience dictates that a person keep them literally (but that's another topic).

Do we have to keep the Moral Law? (the 10 commandments).

Yes, we have to literally keep the moral law. But we do not have to keep a literal Sabbath. That finds it's fulfillment when we keep the command to 'love your neighbor as yourself'. Just as a lawful fast finds it's fulfillment when we 'fast' from sin, so a lawful Sabbath finds it's fulfillment when we 'rest' from sin (see Isaiah 58:3-14). Sin being defined as 'not loving your neighbor as yourself'.

I proffer that the Moral Law is the ONLY LAW we are to keep
UNLESS, God shows us that He wants some of us to keep more of the law,,,but this is not generally required.

When you keep the moral law you fulfill ALL of the law.

"The entire law is summed up in a single (moral) command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." - Galatians 5:14

"...he who loves his fellow man has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one (moral) rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." - Romans 13:8-9

Have you looked through my links that might be explaining this better?
They even show the TYPES of law and give examples.

Yes, I have.
Thank you.

Don't you think this is easier than trying to figure out which are to be kept by faith?

You're not understanding.
ALL of the law is 'kept' by faith.

The right word to use is 'upheld' by faith. That's the word Paul uses. Keeping the law implies literally keeping the law to the letter. Faith is not required to do that. Some laws are literally kept through our faith in Christ, while some are not literally kept by our faith in Christ, but ALL of them are upheld (that is fulfilled and not violated) by our faith in Christ.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

37 Scriptures That Prove Christians Are Not Under The Law

The purpose of the Law was to show us that we could not keep it.....we MUST have a Savior! Born Again Christians have something much better than the “ weak and useless” Law ( Paul’s Words, not mine ).....we have the Indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us now— if we will let it. It takes Trust—- THAT is what God is looking for......God Bless........

The following Biblical Truths and Observations about the Law prove that trying to keep the Laws Of God to Justify ourselves before a Holy God is A Fool’s Errand.....All The Law can ever do is condemn......It can NEVER save.There are TWO things that CAN save us— Christ’s Blood and Our Faith in that Blood....Believe the Song you Know So well and sing often in your Churches... “ Nothing But The Blood”. It’s really true .



Many Christians give lip service to the fact they live in the New Covenant......

The truth however is that because they fail to realise they are no longer under the law they are really still living in an Old Covenant reality.

Here are 37 scriptures that prove that Christians are not under the law!

Acts
The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)

Romans
The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)

If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)

The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)

The purpose of the law was to increase sin. (Romans 5:20)

Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)

Christians have been delivered from the law. (Romans 7:1-6)

The law is good, perfect and holy but cannot help you be good, perfect or holy. (Romans 7:7-12)

The law which promises life only brings death through sin. (Romans 7:10)

The law makes you sinful beyond measure. (Romans 7:13)

The law is weak. (Romans 8:2-3)

1 Corinthians
The strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56)

2 Corinthians
The law is a ministry of death. (2 Corinthians 3:7)

The law is a ministry of condemnation. (2 Corinthians 3:9)

The law has no glory at all in comparison with the New Covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:10)

The law is fading away. (2 Corinthians 3:11)

Anywhere the law is preached it produces a mind-hardening and a heart-hardening veil. (2 Corinthians 3:14-15)

Galatians
The law justifies nobody. (Galatians 2:16)

Christians are dead to the law. (Galatians 2:19)

The law frustrates grace. (Galatians 2:21)

To go back to the law after embracing faith is “stupid”. (Galatians 3:1)

The law curses all who practice it and fail to do it perfectly. (Galatians 3:10)

The law has nothing to do with faith. (Galatians 3:11-12)

The law was a curse that Christ redeemed us from. (Galatians 3:13)

The law functioned in God’s purpose as a temporary covenant from Moses till John the Baptist announced Christ. (Galatians 3:16 & 19, also see… Matthew 11:12-13, Luke 16:16)

If the law worked God would have used it to save us. (Galatians 3:21)

The law was our prison. (Galatians 3:23)

The law makes you a slave like Hagar. (Galatians 4:24)

Ephesians
Christ has abolished the law which was a wall of hostility (Ephesians 2:15)

Philippians
Paul considered everything the law gained him as “skybalon” which is Greek for “poop”. (Philippians 3:4-8)

1 Timothy
The law is only good if used in the right context. (1 Timothy 1:8) (see next verse for the context)

It was made for the unrighteous but not for the righteous. (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

Hebrews
The law is weak, useless and makes nothing perfect. (Hebrews 7:18-19)

God has found fault with it and created a better covenant, enacted on better promises. (Hebrews 8:7-8)

It is obsolete, growing old and ready to vanish. (Hebrews 8:13)

It is only a shadow of good things to come and will never make someone perfect. (Hebrews 10:1)

Well there you have it… 37 scriptures that make a very convincing arguement.