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WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

wondering said:
John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life...
but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life.....
but the wrath of God abidesssible on him.

Does that sound like a God that will all pass by because He loves us?
I really think we're losing sight of the fact that God is an Almighty God.
He's not our buddy.
Click to expand...
Is it possible that your hearing me say things I’m not saying?
if you enjoy hearing about Gods wrath, then rest assured, Grace is not a license to sin. Grace says what you did is wrong, and there is accountability for your actions. However, I’m here with ya and together, we’ll get through this and here is the correct path. I believe Romans 3 outlines this principal.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Just take a law, any law, and examine it thoughtfully in light of scripture to discern if their remains any obligation to literally keep it, or if it has already been satisfied through the work of Christ on the cross.

This is what the law requires:

19Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: 20fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. - Leviticus 24:19

What do we do with it?
Click to expand...
What do we do with it.

Jesus said what to do with it.
He said
BUT I TELL YOU....

This means He was about to CHANGE something in the Law of Moses.
How does He change something in the law of Moses?
Because not all the law was MORAL LAW.

Some of it was civil in nature and some of it was ceremonial in nature and these laws
have changed.

Jesus gave us the New Laws that we are to keep in the New Covenant.
The New Covenant is in Christ....
If we are in Christ we are in the New Covenant and this is a Covenant of love.

Jesus said to also turn the other cheek.
Just quick....there was a custom then that showed an extreme lack of respect toward a person
that was slapped. Jesus said turn also the other cheek....IOW, we don't care what others think of us...we care what God thinks about us. We give our glory to God and not to another man.
Let him slap you...
Do not slap him back...
but give him also the other cheek.

If you accept the divisions in the law,,,you are saved from wondering about such questions.
 
StoveBolts said:
Hi Jethro,
rarely are the requirements upheld in a black and white manner. They always require discernment. For example, it was forbidden for the shew bread to be eaten by anyone except the priests in the order of Aaron. However, David and his men ate of the bread and none were found guilty of breaking Gods commandments because the laws are weighted. In the same manner, circumsission could occur during a Sabbath, and many other things were allowed on Passover, like kindling a fire, even if Passover occurred on a Sabbath.

in regard to the passage you cited, mercy is always an option and the commandment teaches that the punishment can not exceed the offense. In other words, the passage teaches that there are limits when we administer justice. for example, you can not be put to death if you knock somebodies tooth out. Furthermore, intent needs to be looked at. If it was an accident, it’s not a requirement that a tooth be taken for a tooth. Perhaps the offender pays medical expenses. It really all depends.
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Circumcision was allowed on a Sabbath if that was the 8th day after birth.
And yes, in the O.T. the punishment could not exceed the crime as it did in other countries at that time. The Hebrews were very civilized if compared with their neighbors, some of which were still practicing human sacrifice.

The intent part of your post is also a really good point and one that we consider up to this day.

I just wrote to Jethro Bodine in post no. 622.
Could you please read it and comment?
 
wondering said:
This means He was about to CHANGE something in the Law of Moses.
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Jesus said, For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus wasn't changing the Law in Matthew 5-7. He was giving a proper interpretation of it, as well as giving examples how to live it out.
 
wondering said:
Jesus said to also turn the other cheek.
Just quick....there was a custom then that showed an extreme lack of respect toward a person
that was slapped. Jesus said turn also the other cheek....IOW, we don't care what others think of us...we care what God thinks about us. We give our glory to God and not to another man.
Let him slap you...
Click to expand...
It was culturally acceptable to backhand your servant. However, it was illegal to hit him open handed. To turn the other cheek is to say, go ahead, hit me open-handed. Treat me as your equal, and not your servant.
It was also legal for a Roman soldier to forse you to carry his pack a mile, but not one step further or said soldier would be in violation and open to repremand.
Remember eye for an eye is about justice, and limits, and mercy.
He can back hand you, but he has to show mercy when you turn the other cheek or he is in violation. Same thing when you start Mile two.
 
StoveBolts said:
Is it possible that your hearing me say things I’m not saying?
if you enjoy hearing about Gods wrath, then rest assured, Grace is not a license to sin. Grace says what you did is wrong, and there is accountability for your actions. However, I’m here with ya and together, we’ll get through this and here is the correct path. I believe Romans 3 outlines this principal.
Click to expand...
I think I hear you.
You wanted to understand why I'm tired of a lovey dovey God.
I explained it and even said i didn't mean any of it to be you.
And I don't like hearing about God's wrath although I know about it.
But some hide behind His love and I don't care for that either.
Have you been on other forums? I've heard some pretty weird stuff.
God's love seems to cover every intentional sin and way of life...
which is different than what you've correctly stated above about us getting
through this with the help of the Holy Spirit and our Sonship with God and our
salvation by our Savior.
 
StoveBolts said:
Jesus said, For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus wasn't changing the Law in Matthew 5-7. He was giving a proper interpretation of it, as well as giving examples how to live it out.
Click to expand...
BUT I SAY TO YOU means a change is coming....
Jesus changed the Divorce Certificate Law making divorce not acceptable (with 1 exception).

Jesus changed the Law about stoning an adultress. If this scripture was not in original manuscripts, He was still making a moral change to stoning laws.

Jesus said if we hate our enemy, we have already killed him. In the O.T. the enemy was hated.

You don't think these are changes?

Instead on adultery....Jesus made it more clear and brought it to the heart, as you've stated.
But some changes were also made.
 
wondering said:
Jesus changed the Divorce Certificate Law making divorce not acceptable (with 1 exception).
Click to expand...
No, he corrected a previous Rabbinical judgment made about divorce.

wondering said:
Jesus changed the Law about stoning an adultress.
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No, he paid the just and righteous lawful requirement to die for committing adultery thus fulfilling that law, not destroying it. That's why we ourselves don't have to literally fulfill the lawful requirement to stone an adulteress.

wondering said:
Jesus said if we hate our enemy, we have already killed him. In the O.T. the enemy was hated.
Click to expand...
This one he gave clarification on.

wondering said:
Instead on adultery....Jesus made it more clear and brought it to the heart, as you've stated.
Click to expand...
It was already a matter of the heart in the law.

'Do not covet they neighbor's wife...'

wondering said:
But some changes were also made.
Click to expand...
In regard to the priesthood.
And even then, it's not a change but rather the setting aside of the temporary and going back to the Melchizedek priesthood.
 
StoveBolts said:
Jesus said, For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus wasn't changing the Law in Matthew 5-7. He was giving a proper interpretation of it, as well as giving examples how to live it out.
Click to expand...


...one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Did Jesus fulfill the law?


JLB
 
Jethro Bodine said:
No, he corrected a previous Rabbinical judgment made about divorce.


No, he paid the just and righteous lawful requirement to die for committing adultery thus fulfilling that law, not destroying it. That's why we ourselves don't have to literally fulfill the lawful requirement to stone an adulteress.


This one he gave clarification on.


It was already a matter of the heart in the law.

'Do not covet they neighbor's wife...'


In regard to the priesthood.
And even then, it's not a change but rather the setting aside of the temporary and going back to the Melchizedek priesthood.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by your first sentence?

Matthew 19:3-9
3Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?”
4And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,
5and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’?
6“So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

7They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?”
8He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
9“And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Above, Jesus is speaking about Moses and the Cerificate of Divorce that Moses allowed.
I'm speaking to this...
I don't know about any rabbinical judgement.
If there's a verse I'd like to see it.

Jesus came to fulfill the law---not rabbinical judgements.
 
JLB said:
...one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Did Jesus fulfill the law?


JLB
Click to expand...
Within context of Matthew 5, I remain exegetically correct. Nothing I have written is incorrect.

The fulfilling you spoke of occurs in Mathew 26:28. Like gives clarity in Luke 22:16. In Mathew 5, Jesus is giving the correct interpretation of the Law while providing examples.
 
JLB said:
If you knew what the Talmud says about Jesus of Nazareth you would understand.
Click to expand...
The only Talmud you can refer to is one written after the time of Jesus.
Previous Talmuds talk of the coming Messiah.
Since there are different Talmuds and many additions made to the ones that exist, which one are you talking about.
The point is, it's foolish to debate the Talmud unless you are a scholar.
I am not a scholar.
Are you?
Even, so, we can still quote what we have read.
 
Last edited:
wondering said:
What do you mean by your first sentence?

Matthew 19:3-9
3Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?”
4And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,
5and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’?
6“So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

7They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?”
8He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
9“And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Above, Jesus is speaking about Moses and the Cerificate of Divorce that Moses allowed.
I'm speaking to this...
I don't know about any rabbinical judgement.
If there's a verse I'd like to see it.

Jesus came to fulfill the law---not rabbinical judgements.
Click to expand...
Rabbinical judgments come from the Talmud.
 
StoveBolts said:
Within context of Matthew 5, I remain exegetically correct. Nothing I have written is incorrect.

The fulfilling you spoke of occurs in Mathew 26:28. Like gives clarity in Luke 22:16. In Mathew 5, Jesus is giving the correct interpretation of the Law while providing examples.
Click to expand...

Ok.

I think we all agree that Jesus correctly interpreted the law.


The only point I was making is, Jesus said nothing would pass from the law, until it was fulfilled.


So my question is: Did Jesus fulfill the law?


If He did, and I think we all agree that He did, then it is certainly safe to say, the requirement for the law to be set aside, or taken out of the way, because it has become obsolete has been met, having been fulfilled.



Paul says it this way —


What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19


It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come...


The Seed has certainly come and fulfilled the law.


By saying “until”, the Spirit is indicating the law was temporary.



JLB
 
JLB said:
What does the Talmud say about Jesus?


Does the Talmud indicate that Jesus is the Messiah?
Click to expand...
What do you know of the three wells of Abraham that Jacob re- dug? The name of the last well speaks of Jesus and he uses this language twice in scripture. For those with ears to hear, knew exactly what he was saying. For those without ears, they were oblivious to His words or they rejected his words which was foretold in the babalonian talmud and hardened their hearts.

For the Jews, it's a matter of hardening of their heart, which Paul writes about in Romans. This two has the nuances of the three wells.
 
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