Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?

[crossnote]

no matter what this is exactly what we must go by in the words of another preacher.. its a God thing

I don't think it can be any clearer than stated...

And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
(Luk 18:26-27)

 

[JLB]

hehe, and here is what Jesus taught His disciples after sending the young ruler went away in despair thinking he could enter heaven by keeping the Commandments...

And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
(Luk 18:26-27)

So the rich young ruler had Christ in him, and was following Christ in obedience?


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



JLB

 

[crossnote]

So the rich young ruler had Christ in him, and was following Christ in obedience?


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



JLB

No, his initial hope was in keeping the Commandments. Seeing that wasn't sufficient he, unfortunately, walked away from the Source of Life.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

So the rich young ruler had Christ in him, and was following Christ in obedience?


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



JLB

The Rich Young Ruler did not understand the True Purpose Of The Law—- the purpose was to “ shut his mouth” about any delusions He May have had in thinking that he could “ keep” them.The young Ruler was like the majority of the Jews that broke Paul’s Heart.Those Jews that had a “ Zeal” for the things of God, but “ without knowledge”.... They were Trusting in their OWN Righteousness , their Law-Keeping Performance , to Save them.....( Ring a Bell? ) Paul understood that this type of Erroneous Religious thinking would damn all that Believed it...He was willing to be damned himself if that would save his Blind Jewish Brethren....
Jesus knew exactly how to prick the self-Righteous balloon of this Lost man . We ALL have our weak spots and Jesus knew the “ weak spot” of the Young Ruler.It was His love of money.God is to be First in our lives. The Rich Young Ruler had his God——Money.When push came to Shove ,Jesus forced him to choose his True God.Many People are no different from this guy....
Their True God may not be money .....they may worship Power, sex, sports, prestige, family, food, drugs......Spiritual Adultery has many forms......

 

[JLB]

No, his initial hope was in keeping the Commandments. Seeing that wasn't sufficient he, unfortunately, walked away from the Source of Life.

A person must be born again, in which they are joined to Christ and are one spirit with Him, in which they are one with the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

• But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

We have eternal life by knowing Him, being joined to Him, and are “in Him”.

• And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Jesus admonished is to remain in Him.

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

The “way” this same John instructs us, by the Spirit to remain in Christ, is to obey Him; to keep His commandments.

• Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

To know Him, be joined with Him being one spirit with a Him, is eternal life.

• He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Obeying Him is the way of love. If you don’t want to love God, and love His children, then you may have a problem.


“If you love Me, keep My commandments.

• Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

JLB

 

[JLB]

Those Jews that had a “ Zeal” for the things of God, but “ without knowledge”.

The rich young ruler was asked to follow, which is to say, become a disciple of Jesus Christ and obey Him.


Keeping commandments without following Christ is useless.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


In the New Covenant we are to obey Jesus Christ, not the law of Moses.


JLB

 

[jerry63935]

I don't think it can be any clearer than stated...

And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

looks like some dont get it

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi crossnote....
I agree with Ernest T. Bass BTW.
But you mentioned being Pelagian....
Who is he and what did he believe?

Men being born without sin is not 'Pelagian', it is a Biblical fact. Original sin is generally attributed to Augustine and made popular by false teachers as John Calvin and Martin Luther. It was never taught by Christ or His Apostles nor taught and believed by Jews in the OT.

1 Jn 3:4 sin is transgression of the law.
Rom 4:15 if there were no law there would be no transgression/sin.

For sin to exists requires 1) law to exist and 2) that law has to be transgressed which makes the idea of original sin impossible. Rom 7:8-9 infants are not capable of sinning and are without law therefore sin has no power over infants. Sin is something that springs up in man later in life when he learns right and wrong becoming accountable to God. One who has not transgressed God's law cannot be called a sinner no more than an unpainted wall can be called painted.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I don't think it can be any clearer than stated...

And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
(Luk 18:26-27)

The 'impossible' is only relative, conditional.

Matt 19:24 "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

This verse is not to be taken literally no more than swallowing a camel is to be taken literally (Mt 23:24). Jesus is using hyperbole found within an old Jewish adage showing the "difficulty" a rich man will have entering the kingdom, not that it is impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom. Abraham, Job and other OT characters were wealthy but will be saved, will be in the kingdom of heaven Luke 13:28.

The rich young ruler chose not to obey Christ therefore his inability to enter the kingdom was HIS willful choice and not a necessity (not predetermined for him by God nor by inability caused by 'total depravity' at birth). Therefore the "impossible" of Matt 19:26 is conditional not a necessity. If a man willfully chooses to rely on his riches and think he can save himself by himself, then salvation will be impossible for him. But if a man willfully chooses to obey Christ and rely upon the grace of God then salvation is possible.

The story of the rich young ruler refutes the unconditional election of certain individuals before the world began and total depravity.

 

[crossnote]

For sin to exists requires 1) law to exist and 2) that law has to be transgressed which makes the idea of original sin impossible. Rom 7:8-9 infants are not capable of sinning and are without law therefore sin has no power over infants.

yet infants die because of sin...

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
(Rom 5:12-14)

Sin is still in the world before the law, sin just isn't imputed when there is no law. But all still die due to sin.

 

[crossnote]

The 'impossible' is only relative, conditional.

Matt 19:24 "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

This verse is not to be taken literally no more than swallowing a camel is to be taken literally (Mt 23:24). Jesus is using hyperbole found within an old Jewish adage showing the "difficulty" a rich man will have entering the kingdom, not that it is impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom. Abraham, Job and other OT characters were wealthy but will be saved, will be in the kingdom of heaven Luke 13:28.

The rich young ruler chose not to obey Christ therefore his inability to enter the kingdom was HIS willful choice and not a necessity (not predetermined for him by God nor by inability caused by 'total depravity' at birth). Therefore the "impossible" of Matt 19:26 is conditional not a necessity. If a man willfully chooses to rely on his riches and think he can save himself by himself, then salvation will be impossible for him. But if a man willfully chooses to obey Christ and rely upon the grace of God then salvation is possible.

The story of the rich young ruler refutes the unconditional election of certain individuals before the world began and total depravity.

This is so far afield from what Scripture says, I can't waste my time. I remember engaging you in the past on this 'pet topic' of yours and have found it to be a colossal waste of time. Whenever people start picking and choosing what is literal and what is figurative or hyperbole just to make Scripture fit their preformed dogma, then the discussion is hopeless.

 

[crossnote]

Jesus admonished is to remain in Him.

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

At the time, Jesus was speaking to a mixed multitude, including those who believed and those who didn't. The warnings in John 15 are for those who either were denying Christ or at least skeptical. Those were not warnings to those who were born again which would soon occur under the New Covenant Jer 31:31-
We abide and keep His Commandments because of the new birth not in order to remain in Him.

The “way” this same John instructs us, by the Spirit to remain in Christ, is to obey Him; to keep His commandments.

• Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

That is for fruit bearing, not for salvation. That same John makes crystal clear recording what is needed for salvation...

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Joh 3:18)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(Joh 5:24)

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1Jn 5:11-13)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This is so far afield from what Scripture says, I can't waste my time. I remember engaging you in the past on this 'pet topic' of yours and have found it to be a colossal waste of time. Whenever people start picking and choosing what is literal and what is figurative or hyperbole just to make Scripture fit their preformed dogma, then the discussion is hopeless.

If Matt 19:24 is to be taken literal, then how can wealthy men as Abraham, Job, David etc be saved?

Matt 23:24, one can literally swallow a camel?

 

[JLB]

At the time, Jesus was speaking to a mixed multitude, including those who believed and those who didn't. The warnings in John 15 are for those who either were denying Christ or at least skeptical. Those were not warnings to those who were born again which would soon occur under the New Covenant Jer 31:31-
We abide and keep His Commandments because of the new birth not in order to remain in Him.

Could explain how a person who is in Him, and admonished to remain in Him, refers to someone who doesn’t believe in Him.




The reason we are “in Him” is because we in fact do believe.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



JLB

 

[JLB]

That is for fruit bearing, not for salvation.

I agree. Fruit bearing.

People that remain in Him produce fruit.

People that don’t obey Him, don’t remain in Him.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


He who abides in Him produce fruit.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



JLB

 

[JLB]

No, his initial hope was in keeping the Commandments. Seeing that wasn't sufficient he, unfortunately, walked away from the Source of Life.

Without Christ, no one will keep His commandments.


The commandments of the law of Moses have been set aside, and taken out of the way.



JLB

 

[JLB]

This is so far afield from what Scripture says, I can't waste my time. I remember engaging you in the past on this 'pet topic' of yours and have found it to be a colossal waste of time.

Please refrain from this type of dialog.

This subject is for the Soteriology section and not really allowed in the General Forum.

Please start a thread in that area if you want to but heads.

I will get you access if your not a member.

PM me and I will get you access.

I will probably move this thread to that area.


Thanks Bro.


You are a valuable member of this community.


JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

yet infants die because of sin...

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
(Rom 5:12-14)

Sin is still in the world before the law, sin just isn't imputed when there is no law. But all still die due to sin.

The verse says death passed upon all men "for all have sinned". Paul did NOT say death passed upon all "for Adam sinned".

Paul spends first 3 chapters or Romans proving all (Jew and Gentile) have sinned yet not ever did Paul say all are born sinners. But instead sites transgression Gentiles and Jews committed making them sinners. No need for Paul to quote from the OT (Rom 3:10-18) to prove the Jews were sinners if Paul and the Jews already believed they were born dead in sin.....(which they did not).

All will die physically as a CONSEQUENCE of Adam sinning, not because of all inheriting Adam's sin. Rom 5:14 if all inherited Adam's sin then all die for the same sin of Adam. But this verse says death passed upon men who sin not not after the same sin as Adam sinned. Those people died due to their own sins not Adam. If they died due to inheriting Adam's sin then no distinction in their sin and Adam's sin would exist.

 

[JLB]

The verse says death passed upon all men "for all have sinned". Paul did NOT say death passed upon all "for Adam sinned".

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12


The sin and death caused by Adam, spread to all men through procreation in which every human being has sin in their physical body at birth. Because of this sin that dwells in our body, we all have a nature that is prone to sin, and therefore all do eventually sin.


Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. Romans 5:18


Through Adam’s transgression all mankind are condemned in which we all need a Savior.


JLB

 

[crossnote]

If Matt 19:24 is to be taken literal, then how can wealthy men as Abraham, Job, David etc be saved?

Matt 23:24, one can literally swallow a camel?

Why are you bringing up a verse I never quoted. My main point was found in...
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. (Mat 19:26)

I hope you don't take that non literally.