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Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?

Is obeying the Lord required for salvation?


  • Total voters
    27
Hi

I am not sure what all Pelagian or Augustine taught but in the end it does not matter since the Bible is the only repository of God's truth.
I'd agree totally. Except that persons keep bringing up these people who were heretics and I don't know why. I've had to learn about Augustine because he is always mentioned by the reformed faith and because of his teaching on Original Sin. Others mentioned a lot are Pelagius and Arminius --- both of which I have not studied.



From the Bible I can see that man is born innocent and without sin and in a safe position before God.
If your statement is true,,,why do we need salvation?
Do you have some scripture for your belief?
At what point do we become "unsafe"?



Man is also born with a free will and not born tainted with total depravity where he can only can choose evil unless or until he is directly, miraculously 'acted' upon first by God to 'enable' him to choose good.
Man is born with free will.
Man is not born with total depravity,,,but man IS born depraved.
Romans 3:10
as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;



God did not create Adam and Eve with sin nor with a totally depraved nature (Eccl 7:29) yet they still sinned. All that is necessary for one to be a sinner is law to exist (not eat of a certain tree) and transgression of that law. Therefore OS nor total depravity is not necessary for one to be a sinner, just a free will in choosing to disobey God's law.
The story of Adam and Eve disproves your idea that man is born innocent.
God created A and E perfectly.
The fall caused them to lose preternatural gifts.
Everyone that is born after them is born with the EFFECTS of their sin.
Cain killed his brother. Why do you suppose that is? Because Cain was born with the sin nature that tends one to lean toward sin. This is due to the effect of Adam's sin. There would have been no murder if Adam had not fallen into sin.

I agree that we have a free will to obey or disobey God.
However, if we are not born again as Jesus stated in John 3:3 we cannot be saved even if we obey all the commandments. What saves is faith and THEN obedience.
He who believes is saved...he who does not obey will incur the wrath of God.
John 3:36


Even after Adam sinned, man still continued to have free will untainted by total depravity. We can see from the words God spoke to Cain in Gen 4:7 Cain had free will to choose to either do well or choose to not do well. God tells Cain to rule over sin, have dominion over sin. If Cain had total depravity he could not do this. If Cain had total depravity God would have known it also and it would make no sense in God requiring something from Cain God knew Cain could not possibly do due to his depraved nature.
Do you think I'm a calvinist?
Of course the above is true.
 
If your statement is true,,,why do we need salvation?
Do you have some scripture for your belief?
At what point do we become "unsafe"?

Children go thru a process of learning right and wrong Deut 1:39; Isa 7:15-16 then become accountable to God Rom 7:8-9.



wondering said:
Man is born with free will.
Man is not born with total depravity,,,but man IS born depraved.
Romans 3:10
as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

Paul does not say in Rom 3 men are born depraved.

Rom 3:12 "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Paul says they are GONE out of the way, not born out of the way. He says they BECOME unprofitable not born unprofitable. Many verses speak to the wickedness of man but none say man was born that way, it is what men choose to become.

wondering said:
The story of Adam and Eve disproves your idea that man is born innocent.
God created A and E perfectly.
The fall caused them to lose preternatural gifts.
Everyone that is born after them is born with the EFFECTS of their sin.
Cain killed his brother. Why do you suppose that is? Because Cain was born with the sin nature that tends one to lean toward sin. This is due to the effect of Adam's sin. There would have been no murder if Adam had not fallen into sin.

No verse says man is born with a sin nature. Cain had the ability to choose to well as to choose to not do well, Gen 4:7, he chose to not do well while Abel chose to do well Heb 11:4. Why then did Abel not "tend to lean toward sin"?

My point about Adam and Eve was to show all that is needed for sin to exist is a law and man transgressing that law..no original sin or total depravity required for man to be a sinner.

wondering said:
I agree that we have a free will to obey or disobey God.
However, if we are not born again as Jesus stated in John 3:3 we cannot be saved even if we obey all the commandments. What saves is faith and THEN obedience.
He who believes is saved...he who does not obey will incur the wrath of God.
John 3:36
Having faith/belief is obedience. In the verse you cite (Jn 3:36) "believes" is contrasted to "obey not" meaning believing is obeying and not believing is disobedience.

[quote-wondering]
Do you think I'm a calvinist?
Of course the above is true.

I don't know what you are, but the ideas of total depravity, original sin are Calvinistic.
 
Please explain...

Ephesians 2:3 (KJV) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (Eph 2:5)

(1)
Eph 2:1 ASV "And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through YOUR trespasses and sins,"

Paul is speaking about the personal sins of those Ephesians (your sins) and not Adam's sin. Also, Isa 59:2 "but your iniquities (not Adam's iniquities) have separated between you and your God, and your sins (not Adam's sins) have hid his face from you, so that he will not hear."

(2)
The word 'nature" can mean "a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature:" Thayer. The context shows this is the meaning of 'nature' for Paul described those Ephesians sinned by habit for they had habitually "walked according to the course of this world" and "lived in the lusts of our flesh" (Eph 2:2-3)

(3)
"were by nature children of wrath"

The verb "were" is middle voice, perfect tense.

The middle voice shows the subject's (Ephesians) personal participation in committing their own sins. Their sinning was their own culpability.

The perfect tense shows an action in the past done continuously. Again, showing their habitually 'walking' and 'living' in sin in the past (vs 2 & 3). If Paul meant to say they were born sinners he could have easily said they were children of wrath by birth.

Putting the middle voice with the perfect tense Paul is telling those Ephesians you had kept on making yourselves children of wrath.

(4)
Eph 2:5 "even when we were dead through OUR trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),"

Dead due to their own sins, not Adam's. The Ephesians were responsible for their former condition of being dead in sin.
 
I'd agree totally. Except that persons keep bringing up these people who were heretics and I don't know why. I've had to learn about Augustine because he is always mentioned by the reformed faith and because of his teaching on Original Sin. Others mentioned a lot are Pelagius and Arminius --- both of which I have not studied.




If your statement is true,,,why do we need salvation?
Do you have some scripture for your belief?
At what point do we become "unsafe"?




Man is born with free will.
Man is not born with total depravity,,,but man IS born depraved.
Romans 3:10
as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;




The story of Adam and Eve disproves your idea that man is born innocent.
God created A and E perfectly.
The fall caused them to lose preternatural gifts.
Everyone that is born after them is born with the EFFECTS of their sin.
Cain killed his brother. Why do you suppose that is? Because Cain was born with the sin nature that tends one to lean toward sin. This is due to the effect of Adam's sin. There would have been no murder if Adam had not fallen into sin.

I agree that we have a free will to obey or disobey God.
However, if we are not born again as Jesus stated in John 3:3 we cannot be saved even if we obey all the commandments. What saves is faith and THEN obedience.
He who believes is saved...he who does not obey will incur the wrath of God.
John 3:36



Do you think I'm a calvinist?
Of course the above is true.
Addendum to my last post to you:
God's plan of salvation for man is for man to hear Romans 10:17 believe Jn 3:16 repent Luke 13:3 confess Mt 10:32-33 and be baptized Mk 16:16.
Infants cannot do any of things showing God does NOT have a plan of salvation for babies for they are born safe and if one dies as an infant he will be be in heaven. According to OS if one dies as a baby he will be lost eternally.
 
Children go thru a process of learning right and wrong Deut 1:39; Isa 7:15-16 then become accountable to God Rom 7:8-9.


Sounds like Satan’s great lie in the Garden Of Eden..... “Eat from THIS Tree and you will be “ like God” - Knowing Right From Wrong”.... Satan left out just one crucial detail in his lie.....just because you “ know” right from wrong does not mean you will “ choose” the right and reject the wrong!
The whole Bible is dedicated by God to exposing Satan for the Liar That He is.....The 613 Commandments were Gods Way Of saying, “ Okay.....you think you can be “ like Me” by knowing Right from Wrong?” Well, here’s 613 Commandments for you to KEEP 24/7. You now KNOW right from wrong , here is the list of things to do and not to do that will make you “ like me”— PERFECT! Now, go and Have At It ! Let’s see how you do.....”
Every time now , since Satan’s B.S.....whenever somebody knows the right thing to do but chooses to do the wrong thing, it Proves Satan to be a Liar......
Is it any wonder that Satan never bothered to change his #1 Lie? Most people are Still buying it.....You don’t mess with success! The average guy on the street thinks he is getting along just fine with God because he “ knows right from wrong” and is Trying his best to be a good, decent, moral guy—- the only guys that are in trouble are those guys In Jail” .....murderers, rapists, child Abusers, etc....
Children need to know that Obedience is Everything! The Obedience that counts in the New Testament is not keeping the Law Of Moses.Paul said that those Laws were “ weak and useless” and we are DEAD to them because they are a waste of time in regard to getting Saved because they “ Have NO POWER to Save.....God gave to us something that “ DOES” have the Power to get one Saved—- The GOSPEL ! Put your FAITH in THAT——- The Finished Work Of The Cross Plus Nothing.....
Try to obey ANY Rule or Law found in God’s Word....They are there for your Own Good.....God will bless you for being Obedient ....He just will NOT save you for being Obedient ....The Way Of Salvation is FAITH .....Faith in the Blood Of Jesus Christ Plus NOTHING! Rest in the Good News Of The Gospel Of 1Cor15:1-4......You do not have to be perfect....you do not even have to TRY to be Perfect.....get that damnable Performance Weight off of your shoulders....REST in the Truth Of The Gospel.....That will get you God's Spirit and that Spirit will do what nobody and no amount of Commandment Keeping can do for ANYbody.....Change you on the inside.....the only change that God cares about.....God bless
 
Children go thru a process of learning right and wrong Deut 1:39; Isa 7:15-16 then become accountable to God Rom 7:8-9.
Sure.
This is known as the age of accountability.

This does not mean children are born free of the sin nature.
They are born with the sin nature but are free of the consequences
UNTIL they reach the age of accountability.

Ephesians 2:3
3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.


Even Christians were children of wrath at one time.
Children not in age,,,but in position.

When a person becomes responsible for their sins,,,they become children of wrath.

I agree with you that a child would not be responsible for their sinning if they died,,,
however, they do sin.



Paul does not say in Rom 3 men are born depraved.

Rom 3:12 "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Paul says they are GONE out of the way, not born out of the way. He says they BECOME unprofitable not born unprofitable. Many verses speak to the wickedness of man but none say man was born that way, it is what men choose to become.
A person either has the sin nature or he doesn't.
He is either born with it or not.
It doesn't suddenly come upon you.

Genesis 8:21
21The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.



Youth in the above verse means all the way back to birth.


From na'ar; (concretely) a boy (as active), from the age of infancy to adolescence; by implication, a servant; also (by interch. Of sex), a girl (of similar latitude in age) -- babe, boy, child, damsel (from the margin), lad, servant, young (man).

see HEBREW na'ar

source: https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5288.htm



Man lost his innocence in the Garden.
Genesis 3:11
11And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”



No verse says man is born with a sin nature. Cain had the ability to choose to well as to choose to not do well, Gen 4:7, he chose to not do well while Abel chose to do well Heb 11:4. Why then did Abel not "tend to lean toward sin"?
As I said,,,man TENDS to evil but not everyone is evil....not everyone sins continually...
some persons, even though lost, are nice persons that do good in life but are not familiar with God.

However, after salvation, with the help of the Holy Spirit, we no longer have this tendency.

My point about Adam and Eve was to show all that is needed for sin to exist is a law and man transgressing that law..no original sin or total depravity required for man to be a sinner.
Original Sin is the sin of Adam.
Total Depravity is not a teaching of Christianity but is believed only by the reformed faith.
Sin simply means missing the mark....doing or not doing what God would want.

There was no "law" when Adam sinned.
The law is what God pronounces.
God said DO NOT EAT OF THIS TREE
THAT is a law.



I don't know what you are, but the ideas of total depravity, original sin are Calvinistic.
Total Depravity is calvinistic.
Original Sin is biblical and goes all the way back to the beginning of the church.
This is simple history.
 
Addendum to my last post to you:
God's plan of salvation for man is for man to hear Romans 10:17 believe Jn 3:16 repent Luke 13:3 confess Mt 10:32-33 and be baptized Mk 16:16.
Infants cannot do any of things showing God does NOT have a plan of salvation for babies for they are born safe and if one dies as an infant he will be be in heaven. According to OS if one dies as a baby he will be lost eternally.
Why do you believe that if a baby dies he will go to hell according to Original Sin?
Where did you learn this?
It's simply not true..even the CC does not believe this any longer.
 
Why do you believe that if a baby dies he will go to hell according to Original Sin?
Where did you learn this?
It's simply not true..even the CC does not believe this any longer.
The Bible teaches those in sin are lost, Rom 6:23. If babies were born sinners and die as a sinner then they would be lost. Those that believe in OS have to dream up verses that say God would save these infantile sinners anyway. If that's the case, why can't adult sinners be saved in their sins also?
 
The Bible teaches those in sin are lost, Rom 6:23. If babies were born sinners and die as a sinner then they would be lost. Those that believe in OS have to dream up verses that say God would save these infantile sinners anyway. If that's the case, why can't adult sinners be saved in their sins also?
You're forgetting about the age of accountability.
Babies and infants can't even sin.
Children sin all the time. Maybe you know some.
But they don't know THE RULES yet,,,,they don't know about God.
This is why they go to Catechism....Sunday School.
They learn that what they are doing is sin and that God does not accept sin.
Most kids don't even think they ever sin....I know this for a fact. I've taught our faith.

Once children know about sin and know about God,,,THEN we can say they are at the age of accountability. This could happen at 8 years old or it could happen at 13 years old,,,each child is different.

This idea you have of O.S. was taught by Augustine. At that time, the church accepted his teaching. The only reason I could think of, since the church did NOT believe what he taught (400AD) BEFORE him,,,is that he was so good at keeping heretical ideas from entering the church and it was important at his time since so much heresy was being taught by some persons.

Even the CC has accepted that babies do not need to be baptized immediately because of the fear that they would go to hell if they died. It's done today because old habits are hard to break.

Adult sinners know about sin and are accountable,,,this is why it wouldn't work for adults.

This we can be sure of: A person is born tainted,,,it does not happen when they first sin.
If this was true, then children would be responsible too because they DO sin - and to God sin is sin,,,,but He is a just and merciful God and knows that children cannot know about Him at an early age.
 
Sure.
This is known as the age of accountability.

This does not mean children are born free of the sin nature.
They are born with the sin nature but are free of the consequences
UNTIL they reach the age of accountability.

Ephesians 2:3
3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.


Even Christians were children of wrath at one time.
Children not in age,,,but in position.

When a person becomes responsible for their sins,,,they become children of wrath.

Eph 2 does NOT say those Ephesians were born sinners. I made a post on this context earlier.

wondering said:
I agree with you that a child would not be responsible for their sinning if they died,,,
however, they do sin.

Infants/small children do not sin, are not capable of sinning and not accountable to God Rom 7:8-9.



wondering said:
A person either has the sin nature or he doesn't.
He is either born with it or not.
It doesn't suddenly come upon you.

Genesis 8:21
21The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.



Youth in the above verse means all the way back to birth.

No, Gen 8:21 says evil from YOUTH. It does NOT say evil from BIRTH.

There is a difference in how one is BORN and what one BECOMES. All are BORN innocent but BECOME sinners sometime in youth.

wondering said:
From na'ar; (concretely) a boy (as active), from the age of infancy to adolescence; by implication, a servant; also (by interch. Of sex), a girl (of similar latitude in age) -- babe, boy, child, damsel (from the margin), lad, servant, young (man).

see HEBREW na'ar

source: https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5288.htm



Man lost his innocence in the Garden.
Genesis 3:11
11And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”

Nowhere is na'uwr translated birth.

Again, sin is transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4. Sin is not something passed from parents to child Eze 18:20 nor is sin a substance like bacteria passed from person to person, sin is not just an idea passed from person to person. It is a transgression against God's law and infants do not sin are not capable of sinning. Rom 7:8-9 infants are "without law" meaning sin is dead to them, has no power over them. But sin springs up later in one's life when he becomes accountable to God having learned right from wrong.


wondering said:
As I said,,,man TENDS to evil but not everyone is evil....not everyone sins continually...
some persons, even though lost, are nice persons that do good in life but are not familiar with God.

However, after salvation, with the help of the Holy Spirit, we no longer have this tendency.

Men sin by choice not because some nature they were born with causes them to sin against their will.

Jesus was born as a man (Heb 2:16-17; Phil 2:7-8) born of a human mother (Lk 1:21) and was sinless for He chose not to sin. If OS were true then He would have been born a sinner. This is a major problem for those that believe in OS so they are forced to come up with ways NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE to get around this problem. It's case of one error (OS) leading to more error.

wondering said:
Original Sin is the sin of Adam.
Total Depravity is not a teaching of Christianity but is believed only by the reformed faith.
Sin simply means missing the mark....doing or not doing what God would want.

If OS were true then it makes man a innocent victim of sin rather than accountable perpetrator. How can one passively born with sin against his will be justly rightly condemned? Can one born without legs be justly rightly condemn for not walking?

OS gives man an excuse for his sins. OS makes God responsibile for men's sin

wondering said:
There was no "law" when Adam sinned.
The law is what God pronounces.
God said DO NOT EAT OF THIS TREE
THAT is a law.

Adam and Eve were NOT sinners BEFORE breaking the law in eating of the forbidden tree. For sin is transgression of God's law not some idea passed from parents to child.



wondering said:
Total Depravity is calvinistic.
Original Sin is biblical and goes all the way back to the beginning of the church.
This is simple history.

Neither are biblical. Nowhere in the OT were Jews taught the idea of OS nor did they believe in such an idea.
 
Paul does not say in Rom 3 men are born depraved.

Rom 3:12 "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Paul says they are GONE out of the way, not born out of the way. He says they BECOME unprofitable not born unprofitable. Many verses speak to the wickedness of man but none say man was born that way, it is what men choose to become.

Amen.
 
So Paul contradicts himself in Romans with Ephesians?

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(Rom 5:19)
the verse does NOT say men are UNconditionally made sinner's as it does NOT say men are made righteous UNconditionally. Men are conditionally made sinners when they sin Rom 5:12 and conditionally made righteous when have faith Rom 5:1-2.

If Rom 5:19A teaches all men are UNconditionally made sinners then 19B must also teach all men are unconditionally made righteous (Universalism)

The problem lies in the idea of OS and it not being taught in the Bible
 
Adam and Eve were NOT sinners BEFORE breaking the law in eating of the forbidden tree. For sin is transgression of God's law not some idea passed from parents to child.


Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. Romans 5:18


  • Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men


This statement is undeniable.


Every single human being born has sin dwelling in their flesh, except Jesus, Who was born of a virgin not being tainted with the bloodline from Adam.



JLB
 
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the verse does NOT say men are UNconditionally made sinner's as it does NOT say men are made righteous UNconditionally. Men are conditionally made sinners when they sin Rom 5:12 and conditionally made righteous when have faith Rom 5:1-2.

If Rom 5:19A teaches all men are UNconditionally made sinners then 19B must also teach all men are unconditionally made righteous (Universalism)

The problem lies in the idea of OS and it not being taught in the Bible
Sure, all men are unconditionally made sinners evidenced by the fact that all men die including babies.
God chose faith to be a requirement for righteousness. Apples and oranges.
 
Sure, all men are unconditionally made sinners evidenced by the fact that all men die including babies.
God chose faith to be a requirement for righteousness. Apples and oranges.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17


Not works of the law
Not good works
Not works that earn


The work of obedience.


Faith must have the corresponding action or work of obedience or faith remains dormant and incomplete, being unable to produce the intended divine result.


Whenever I hear someone say “by faith alone” I know they don’t understand what their talking about.


When I hear them say “by faith alone“, “by grace alone” I know they are downright confused.


JLB
 
Whenever I hear someone say “by faith alone” I know they don’t understand what their talking about.
I guess Paul is confused.?.

Romans 3:28 ESV
[28] For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Romans 4:6 ESV
[6] just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

What works would you like to to faith?

Guess you ridicule the whole reformation and would return us to Rome ?
 
Sure, all men are unconditionally made sinners evidenced by the fact that all men die including babies.
God chose faith to be a requirement for righteousness. Apples and oranges.
No, you are ASSUMING they are unconditionally made sinners. Rom 5:19 is like a if-then type statement. If 19a is true, then-so also is 19b true. Meaning if it is true many are made sinners UNconditionally then so also is it true that same many will be UNconditionally made righteous......and you have Universalism in salvation.

Nowhere in the Bible do I find anyone being called a sinner who had not sinned nor anyone called righteous(saved) who had done no righteousness (obedience to God's commands).

Rom 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,...."
The children had done no evil so they were not sinners. Having done no good or evil means children are born in a neutral, safe state.
 
Guess you ridicule the whole reformation and would return us to Rome ?

Catholics went to one extreme, Reformers went to the opposite extreme and the truth got left in the middle.

(In the first 4 chapters of Romans, the only work Paul excludes from salvation is the strict perfect, flawless work in law keeping that the OT required to be justified.)
 
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