Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?

[crossnote]

People that don’t obey Him, don’t remain in Him.
JLB

The assumptions are
**'that one is in Him' to begin with, if that is not so, of course they will not obey Him.
** Christians are perfect in obedience, otherwise they get separated from God.
** We are kept by our obedience.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12


The sin and death caused by Adam, spread to all men through procreation in which every human being has sin in their physical body at birth. Because of this sin that dwells in our body, we all have a nature that is prone to sin, and therefore all do eventually sin.


Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. Romans 5:18


Through Adam’s transgression all mankind are condemned in which we all need a Savior.


JLB

There is no such thing as a 'sin gene' or sin dna passed from one person to another, Eze 18:20. Nor is sin just an idea that is passed from person to another. Sin is transgression (1 Jn 3:4) of the law so the only way for sin to exist and a person be a sinner is for an accountable person transgress God's law. Newborn infants are not accountable to God's law and unable to sin.

Again, Rom 5:12 ends with 'because all sinned" showing personal accountability, culpability for sinning. It does NOT say "because all inherited Adam's sin".


Romans 5:18
(a)Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
(b) so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

IF Rom 5:18a "proves" original sin then 18b must prove universalism.

IF is is true condemnation UNCONDITIONALLY came to all men due to Adam's sin, THEN it is equally true justification will UNCONDITIONALLY come to all men due to Christ's righteousness.

But Paul points out that justification is CONDITIONAL upon one have faith Rom 5:1-2. Being a sinner is CONDITIONAL upon one sinning Rom 5:12.

Paul is showing the benefits of Christ's righteousness in going to the cross is available to as many who have been affected by sin since sin entered the world.

One becomes a sinner by following Adam. One becomes righteous by following Christ. One is by what he chooses to follow.

 

[jerry63935]

The assumptions are
**'that one is in Him' to begin with, if that is not so, of course they will not obey Him.
** Christians are perfect in obedience, otherwise they get separated from God.
** We are kept by our obedience.

as Christian we do want to obey that is the leadership of the Holy Spirit. you are correct assumptions

 

[crossnote]

Without Christ, no one will keep His commandments.

True, as it is Christ Jesus who gives us a new nature/heart desiring to please Him.

The commandments of the law of Moses have been set aside, and taken out of the way.

True, except the moral side of the law. But the whole Levitical system has been done away.

 

[crossnote]

Could explain how a person who is in Him, and admonished to remain in Him, refers to someone who doesn’t believe in Him.

"unbeliever" and Jesus had many of those...
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. (Joh 6:65-66)

The reason we are “in Him” is because we in fact do believe.

and have been born again and sealed by His Spirit.

 

[JLB]

The assumptions are
**'that one is in Him' to begin with, if that is not so, of course .

No assumption to it.

Its what Jesus plainly taught.


“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:5-6


How could anyone read the words “abide in me” and come away with a conclusion that Jesus is talking about someone who is not in Him.


We are told we must remain in Him in order to bear fruit, as a branch must remain connected to the vine from which it draws its life.


If the branch becomes disconnected from the vine it will wither and dry up.


Likewise we must remain in Christ, if we expect to produce fruit.


Those who do not remain in Christ, will be cast into the fire and burned.


JLB

 

[JLB]

True, as it is Christ Jesus who gives us a new nature/heart desiring to please Him.

And gives us His Spirit that empowers us to obey.

 

[GodsGrace]

Basically (from Wiki)...
" Pelagianism is a heterodox Christian theological position which holds that the original sin did not taint human nature and that humans have the free will to achieve human perfection without divine grace. Pelagius (c. 355 – c. 420 CE), a British monk, taught that God could not command believers to do the impossible, and therefore it must be possible to satisfy all divine commandments. He also taught that it was unjust to punish one person for the sins of another; therefore, infants are born blameless. Pelagius accepted no excuse for sinful behavior and taught that all Christians, regardless of their station in life, should live unimpeachable, sinless lives. "

Thanks crossnote.
Pelagian believed man was born good and could achieve sinlessness without the help of God, through their own free will and will power.

Right?

I would like to add that since he was alive 355 to 420, I can bet that he debated with Augustine about Original Sin. This I know about.

We all agree that we are born damaged by the effect of the sin of Adam---Original Sin.

I agree with Pelagius that God will NOT hold any man responsible for the sin of another man.....

Which Augustine disagreed with. Augustine taught that man is born responsible for the sin of Adam ---- man is imputed with the sin of Adam. This is incorrect. This is the reason infants began to be baptized so they could be washed of this sin in case they died.

I do not agree with Augustine....and, I must say, even the CC has changed its position on this.
They now teach that if an infant dies, they rely of God's mercy to do the right thing. A nice way of saying that a baby will not go to hell if not baptized. But they still teach that babies should be baptized and EVEN for the removal of O.S. ---- it's a bit confused.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

The rich young ruler was asked to follow, which is to say, become a disciple of Jesus Christ and obey Him.


Keeping commandments without following Christ is useless.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


In the New Covenant we are to obey Jesus Christ, not the law of Moses.


JLB

..........and to obey the Ascended Christ in this Age Of Grace, we must “ follow Paul” who says we are Saved by the OBEDIENCE to his Gospel .Obedience today means to REST in the Finished Work Of The Cross....If one is not “ resting they are “working”...... those that Work for their Salvation will not find their Salvation.....work for rewards, of course. God say we were created for “ Good Works” and to “ Carry the Burdens “ Of others—- NOT to be Saved or to STAY Saved.....we do it because of an Indwelling Holy Spirit AFTER Salvation that compels us to do these things because they are a Natural Side- Effect Of having the Holy Spirit Inside...... If it does not come about naturally, don’t think that you are “Earning Brownie Points” with God.......Doing Good is always a better than thing than doing nothing—“ their is honor among thieves”—- but if the Motive is not Pure, it’s just a “ Dead Work”....... God Bless..

 

[crossnote]

If the branch becomes disconnected from the vine it will wither and dry up.

Who has the power and sees to it that it does not happen?... us or God?
God is not willing that any should perish, but the way you present it, God is willing.
You can continually put forth your 'proof texts' and I mine...
John 10:28 (KJV) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 (KJV) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Romans 5:10 (KJV) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Hebrews 7:25 (KJV) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

This appears to be a point missing from your equation...Christ's continual intercession for His people

John 6:37 (KJV) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Philippians 1:6 (KJV) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Jonah 2:9 (KJV) But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.


I'm done here. Obviously you are emphasizing man's part and I am emphasizing God's. My main point is we can only do what He first works in us. Salvation is 100% of God, whereas our fruit is the byproduct of that salvation.
Again, I'm done here, we have made clear our points, and the testimony of going on is not a good one.

 

[JLB]

and to obey the Ascended Christ in this Age Of Grace, we must “ follow Paul” who says we are Saved by the OBEDIENCE to his Gospel .

Yes agreed.


However “Paul’s Gospel” is the same Gospel as Jesus Christ.

There is only one Gospel; The Gospel of Jesus Christ




JLB

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

There is no such thing as a 'sin gene' or sin dna passed from one person to another, Eze 18:20. Nor is sin just an idea that is passed from person to another. Sin is transgression (1 Jn 3:4) of the law so the only way for sin to exist and a person be a sinner is for an accountable person transgress God's law. Newborn infants are not accountable to God's law and unable to sin.

Again, Rom 5:12 ends with 'because all sinned" showing personal accountability, culpability for sinning. It does NOT say "because all inherited Adam's sin".


Romans 5:18
(a)Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
(b) so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

IF Rom 5:18a "proves" original sin then 18b must prove universalism.

IF is is true condemnation UNCONDITIONALLY came to all men due to Adam's sin, THEN it is equally true justification will UNCONDITIONALLY come to all men due to Christ's righteousness.

But Paul points out that justification is CONDITIONAL upon one have faith Rom 5:1-2. Being a sinner is CONDITIONAL upon one sinning Rom 5:12.

Paul is showing the benefits of Christ's righteousness in going to the cross is available to as many who have been affected by sin since sin entered the world.

One becomes a sinner by following Adam. One becomes righteous by following Christ. One is by what he chooses to follow.

One becomes a sinner by following Adam. One becomes righteous by following Christ. One is by what he chooses to follow.
.....Jesus said after He went back to Heaven that we are to “ Follow Paul”. Paul is the one we go to for our Doctrine....Paul’s Doctrine was to Believe His Gospel and NEVER add to it, unless your desire is to “ Fall From Grace”......1Cor15:1-4...

 

[crossnote]

Thanks crossnote.
Pelagian believed man was born good and could achieve sinlessness without the help of God, through their own free will and will power.

Right?

I would like to add that since he was alive 355 to 420, I can bet that he debated with Augustine about Original Sin. This I know about.

We all agree that we are born damaged by the effect of the sin of Adam---Original Sin.

I agree with Pelagius that God will NOT hold any man responsible for the sin of another man.....

Which Augustine disagreed with. Augustine taught that man is born responsible for the sin of Adam ---- man is imputed with the sin of Adam. This is incorrect. This is the reason infants began to be baptized so they could be washed of this sin in case they died.

I do not agree with Augustine....and, I must say, even the CC has changed its position on this.
They now teach that if an infant dies, they rely of God's mercy to do the right thing. A nice way of saying that a baby will not go to hell if not baptized. But they still teach that babies should be baptized and EVEN for the removal of O.S. ---- it's a bit confused.

Sorry to hear you have gone the way of Pelagian. Are there Churches available that still hold to Pelagianism?
How do you explain deaths and birth deformities of infants if sin has not spread to them?

 

[JLB]

Who has the power and sees to it that it does not happen?... us or God?

We who are in Christ must by the Spirit, obey the Lord.
By the Spirit put to death the sinful deeds of the flesh.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:1-2

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

Each of us must make the choice to remain in Christ, by obeying His commandments as well as His doctrine, so that we will bear fruit.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

This is the work of obedience; the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:36


This is how we “hold fast” the Gospel message by which we were saved.


Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2



Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:16




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Men being born without sin is not 'Pelagian', it is a Biblical fact. Original sin is generally attributed to Augustine and made popular by false teachers as John Calvin and Martin Luther. It was never taught by Christ or His Apostles nor taught and believed by Jews in the OT.

1 Jn 3:4 sin is transgression of the law.
Rom 4:15 if there were no law there would be no transgression/sin.

For sin to exists requires 1) law to exist and 2) that law has to be transgressed which makes the idea of original sin impossible. Rom 7:8-9 infants are not capable of sinning and are without law therefore sin has no power over infants. Sin is something that springs up in man later in life when he learns right and wrong becoming accountable to God. One who has not transgressed God's law cannot be called a sinner no more than an unpainted wall can be called painted.

I just said practically the same things in a post just a few minutes ago.

See post 208.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry to hear you have gone the way of Pelagian. Are there Churches available that still hold to Pelagianism?
How do you explain deaths and birth deformities of infants if sin has not spread to them?

??

I think you misunderstood my post.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

One becomes a sinner by following Adam. One becomes righteous by following Christ. One is by what he chooses to follow.
.....Jesus said after He went back to Heaven that we are to “ Follow Paul”. Paul is the one we go to for our Doctrine....Paul’s Doctrine was to Believe His Gospel and NEVER add to it, unless your desire is to “ Fall From Grace”......1Cor15:1-4...

Follow Paul as he followed Christ 1 Cor 11:1 and by doing so one can be righteous.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I just said practically the same things in a post just a few minutes ago.

See post 208.

Hi

I am not sure what all Pelagian or Augustine taught but in the end it does not matter since the Bible is the only repository of God's truth. From the Bible I can see that man is born innocent and without sin and in a safe position before God. Man is also born with a free will and not born tainted with total depravity where he can only can choose evil unless or until he is directly, miraculously 'acted' upon first by God to 'enable' him to choose good.

God did not create Adam and Eve with sin nor with a totally depraved nature (Eccl 7:29) yet they still sinned. All that is necessary for one to be a sinner is law to exist (not eat of a certain tree) and transgression of that law. Therefore OS nor total depravity is not necessary for one to be a sinner, just a free will in choosing to disobey God's law.

Even after Adam sinned, man still continued to have free will untainted by total depravity. We can see from the words God spoke to Cain in Gen 4:7 Cain had free will to choose to either do well or choose to not do well. God tells Cain to rule over sin, have dominion over sin. If Cain had total depravity he could not do this. If Cain had total depravity God would have known it also and it would make no sense in God requiring something from Cain God knew Cain could not possibly do due to his depraved nature.

 

[JLB]

I am not sure what all Pelagian or Augustine taught but in the end it does not matter since the Bible is the only repository of God's truth.

 

[crossnote]

Even after Adam sinned, man still continued to have free will untainted by total depravity.

Please explain...

Ephesians 2:3 (KJV) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (Eph 2:5)