Infant Immersion

[Doug Brents]

Belief is a gift from God. Not all receive tht gift and are saved. Many act as if they've figured it all out on their own and now believe the Father sent the Son to die for our sins.

Belief is not a gift from God. Belief is man's reaction to God's good news, the Gospel of Jesus.


"How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
'How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!'
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." - Rom 10:14-17

 

[Cygnus]

That is a very good question. And there are many possible answers. Some choose to believe that there is no God, no creator, who made the entire world because they don't want to believe that they owe anyone or anything their love and devotion. They want to make themselves "gods" in their own life.

Others have traumatic events in their life, and choose to blame God. "How could a loving God let "this, that, or the other thing" happen to His children?" etc.

There are other surface reasons, but they all boil down to Satan. Satan is real, alive, and in the world; and he seeks to turn the hearts of God's loved creation away from Him. Satan seeks to bring our love and devotion over to himself so that he can "rub God's nose in it" that God's children love Satan more than they love God. And he is very good at what he does. He is very good at telling just enough truth in his lies that they are believable. He is the wisest, most beautiful, and most powerful of all of God's creations; so great that he thought he should be One with God.

That is why some believe and some don't. Some (most) fall to Satan's lies, and some few choose to submit themselves to God's will.

I don't think Satan has the ability to cause one to not receive salvation if God chooses you.
Satan may be able to lead a believer astray or neutralize them.

But the question is, why do some choose and others not choose? Would it be the influence of their parents? Their school? IQ? TV?

The problem for the free-willers is that much of "programming" of your life you have no control of.

 

[Cygnus]

Belief is not a gift from God. Belief is man's reaction to God's good news, the Gospel of Jesus.


"How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
'How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!'
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." - Rom 10:14-17

Faith..belief is a gift from God. You can't come to Christ unless the Father grants it. Well, that's what the combination of Eph 2:8 and John 6:65 tells us.

The Romans verse you presented is also true. Someone presents you with the gospel...you hear it...and if God gives you the faith you believe it. The example of Lydia was alredy presented in post 378.

 

[Doug Brents]

I don't think Satan has the ability to cause one to not receive salvation if God chooses you.
Satan may be able to lead a believer astray or neutralize them.

But the question is, why do some choose and others not choose? Would it be the influence of their parents? Their school? IQ? TV?

The problem for the free-willers is that much of "programming" of your life you have no control of.

It all comes down to personal choice. I know a couple of gentlemen, brothers who grew up in the same house with the same abusive, foul mouthed, drunkard, despicable father. One grew up to be exactly like his father, and the other grew up to be a very prominent lawyer, and then a very respected upstanding judge. When asked why they turned out the way they did, each of them answered the exact same way, "With a father like mine, what else could I become."

Between stimulus and response is choice. The Gospel message is the stimulus. Our response to it is based on our choice.

 

[Doug Brents]

Faith..belief is a gift from God. You can't come to Christ unless the Father grants it. Well, that's what the combination of Eph 2:8 and John 6:65 tells us.

The Romans verse you presented is also true. Someone presents you with the gospel...you hear it...and if God gives you the faith you believe it. The example of Lydia was alredy presented in post 378.

Wrong. Faith is our response to God's call. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. Without action on our part faith is dead, just as a body without a soul is dead. God calls man to have faith, and He gives us something in which to have faith: His Son. But the faith comes from us. Yes, the Father has to call you (Hearing the Word), and then your choice to believe or not believe determines the response you make to that call.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

When is the "age of accountability"?

It begins immediately when the child KNOWS to do right, and willfully DOES WRONG - Is drawn away of their OWN LUST, and enticed, allowing the lust to CONCEIVE and become a sinful act.

That's the point at which they "Fall short of God's glory" and enter a "Grace period" allowing them to learn of God, and become Born Again of the Holy Spirit (ideally with the help and support of their parents and the church) and be cleansed of their SIN.

 

[Cygnus]

It all comes down to personal choice. I know a couple of gentlemen, brothers who grew up in the same house with the same abusive, foul mouthed, drunkard, despicable father. One grew up to be exactly like his father, and the other grew up to be a very prominent lawyer, and then a very respected upstanding judge. When asked why they turned out the way they did, each of them answered the exact same way, "With a father like mine, what else could I become."

Between stimulus and response is choice. The Gospel message is the stimulus. Our response to it is based on our choice.

I don't know their salvation status but for the sake of the argument lets say one was saved and the other not saved.

Looks like a win win or a lose win..or even a lose lose....with salvation depending upon how one would have grown up and their mental make up. Basically free-will salvation is based upon the happenstance of life.

 

[Cygnus]

Wrong. Faith is our response to God's call. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. Without action on our part faith is dead, just as a body without a soul is dead. God calls man to have faith, and He gives us something in which to have faith: His Son. But the faith comes from us. Yes, the Father has to call you (Hearing the Word), and then your choice to believe or not believe determines the response you make to that call.

What you have done is presented a definition...you seem to be denying Eph 2 where faith is a gift.

you never really answered what your choice to believe or not believe is based upon.
My choice to believe was that God regenerated me..as I was dead in my sins and transgressions...Given the Holy Spirit.

 

[Cygnus]

It begins immediately when the child KNOWS to do right, and willfully DOES WRONG - Is drawn away of their OWN LUST, and enticed, allowing the lust to CONCEIVE and become a sinful act.

That's the point at which they "Fall short of God's glory" and enter a "Grace period" allowing them to learn of God, and become Born Again of the Holy Spirit (ideally with the help and support of their parents and the church) and be cleansed of their SIN.

Watching the grandkids...that age can be pretty early.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't think Satan has the ability to cause one to not receive salvation if God chooses you.
Satan may be able to lead a believer astray or neutralize them.

But the question is, why do some choose and others not choose? Would it be the influence of their parents? Their school? IQ? TV?

The problem for the free-willers is that much of "programming" of your life you have no control of.

This is funny Cygnus....
You say we have no control of our life...we free-willers.

Did you really say that?

I guess by your theology,,,,YOU have control over your life?

 

[Cygnus]

This is funny Cygnus....
You say we have no control of our life...we free-willers.

Did you really say that?

I guess by your theology,,,,YOU have control over your life?

Your reply kinda sounds like you took what I said out of context.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

....37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart......why were they cut to the heart? I would suggest something similar happened to them that happened to Lydia in Acts 16 when the Lord opened her heart to attend to the things being spoken by Paul.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance........we know God is speaking to a specific group of people in this instance because we know not all people will be saved and many will perish.

The context the Lord opened her heart by His word that was spoken to Lydia by Paul...."And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." Acts 16:13-14.

--2 Pet 3:9 is an example of God's preceptive will in what God desires/wishes man would choose to do. God wishes man use his free will and choose to come to repentance.

--the pronoun 'any' is an indefinite pronoun....that God wishes any...each and every person to come to repentance, not some supposed pre-selected individuals.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Watching the grandkids...that age can be pretty early.

I knew I was a lost sinner probably by age 6, or 7. But I wasn't "Born Again" until age 20, even though God and I did have some dealings before, where HE PROVED himself to me -

 

[Cygnus]

The context the Lord opened her heart by His word that was spoken to Lydia by Paul...."And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." Acts 16:13-14.

--2 Pet 3:9 is an example of God's preceptive will in what God desires/wishes man would choose to do. God wishes man use his free will and choose to come to repentance.

--the pronoun 'any' is an indefinite pronoun....that God wishes any...each and every person to come to repentance, not some supposed pre-selected individuals.

Free-will salvation is pretty much hog wash theology. If a person grows up around people who are extremely anti-God that person will will be biased against accepting Jesus. If the same person was raised in a Christian family that persons will will be biased towards accepting Christ. Are you really going to tell me a persons salvation is dependent upon the bias one receives during life?

 

[jaybo]

Free-will salvation is pretty much hog wash theology. If a person grows up around people who are extremely anti-God that person will will be biased against accepting Jesus. If the same person was raised in a Christian family that persons will will be biased towards accepting Christ. Are you really going to tell me a persons salvation is dependent upon the bias one receives during life?

I was raised a Jew and Bar Mitzvah at 13. When I prayed over and over to God to heal my parents' marriage and make my life happier nothing happened. So I became an atheist.

I remained an atheist for more than thirty years until I was healed in the hospital by Jesus. I am a serious Christian to this day, many years later.

Are you really going to tell me a person's salvation is dependent upon the bias one receives during their life?

 

[Cygnus]

I was raised a Jew and Bar Mitzvah at 13. When I prayed over and over to God to heal my parents' marriage and make my life happier nothing happened. So I became an atheist.

I remained an atheist for more than thirty years until I was healed in the hospital by Jesus. I am a serious Christian to this day, many years later.

Are you really going to tell me a person's salvation is dependent upon the bias one receives during their life?

You had asked..."Are you really going to tell me a person's salvation is dependent upon the bias one receives during their life?"

My answer to that is no. That is the view of a free-will theology. In free-will theology the choice to choose or reject Jesus is based upon something. Last year we bought a new car and the reason for buying that particular car was based opon something. If that something changed we would have bought a different car.

What I believe is that from the pool of fallen people that have ever lived...which is everyone...God by His soverign reasoning and providence decided to save some. Who and why is unknown. This choice was made prior to the creation of the world and beginning of time. Salvation is Gods choice not ours.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your reply kinda sounds like you took what I said out of context.

Maybe I did,,,not sure and can't go back due to time constrictions.
You know how I feel about determinism...so not much more to add.

Why do some believe and some don't?
Famous question asked by calvinists...as if God really did pick and choose.

There are many reasons.
But we are free to choose...
otherwise there would be no reason for Jesus to have died.

Why do you think His death was necessary if God CHOOSES who will be saved and it does NOT depend on our belief on Jesus???

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Cygnus]

Maybe I did,,,not sure and can't go back due to time constrictions.
You know how I feel about determinism...so not much more to add.

Why do some believe and some don't?
Famous question asked by calvinists...as if God really did pick and choose.

There are many reasons.
But we are free to choose...
otherwise there would be no reason for Jesus to have died.

Why do you think His death was necessary if God CHOOSES who will be saved and it does NOT depend on our belief on Jesus???

Thanks for your reply.

The death of Christ was necessary because a ransom had to be paid. There are other reasons.

If we are free to choose one might not choose Christ because of the heavy influence of an atheist. In other words the atheist kept the person from receiving eternal life.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Free-will salvation is pretty much hog wash theology. If a person grows up around people who are extremely anti-God that person will will be biased against accepting Jesus. If the same person was raised in a Christian family that persons will will be biased towards accepting Christ. Are you really going to tell me a persons salvation is dependent upon the bias one receives during life?

A person's free will does not operate in a vacuum, there are external influences on the choices a person makes, 1 Cor 15:33. If one has no free will, just a pre-programmed robot, how can one be influenced in either a good or bad way?

 

[Cygnus]

A person's free will does not operate in a vacuum, there are external influences on the choices a person makes, 1 Cor 15:33. If one has no free will, just a pre-programmed robot, how can one be influenced in either a good or bad way?

There is free-will concerning salvation and free-will concerning daily choices.

Concerning salvaton mankinds default mode is not choosing Jesus. Free-willers often see the fall as a slight slip. As mankind being sick rather than dead.