When did the Church begin?

[JLB]

Heb 9:15 when Christ was crucified, His blood flowed back to wash away the sins of those who lived under the OT law that obeyed God. Abraham did not obey the NT law for it did not yet exist but obeyed the laws given him by God under the Patriarchal law he lived under.

Can you show me a scripture that says we are under something called the New Testament law?



JLB

 

[JLB]

He baptized the Apostles (Jews) in Acts 2 and Cornelius (Gentile) Acts 10 fulfilling Joel's prophecy.....fulfilling meaning to cease, to being to an end.

Please show me the scripture that’s says the prophecy of Joel for the last days has ceased?




JLB

 

[JLB]

Heb 9:15 when Christ was crucified, His blood flowed back to wash away the sins of those who lived under the OT law that obeyed God. Abraham did not obey the NT law for it did not yet exist but obeyed the laws given him by God under the Patriarchal law he lived under.

Abraham walked with Christ and obeyed Him, being justified by faith the same as we are today. Abraham has the Spirit of Christ in Him the same way we do today.


Why would you believe Abraham is not part of the Natural Olive tree we are grafted into?

The Royal Prieshood, the Holy nation of God, the Church, the Ecclesia, the congregation of the righteous.

The Israel of God. The commonwealth of Israel.

We as Gentiles are grated into that.

This holy nation began with Abraham.


For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. Romans 11:13-18



JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Please show me the scripture that’s says the prophecy of Joel for the last days has ceased?




JLB

"All flesh" does not mean every single person would be baptized with the Holy Spirit nor animals since animals have flesh. All flesh at that time was made up by two groups, Jews and Gentiles. When the Apostles (Jews) were baptized with the HS Peter directly ties it to Joel's prophecy (Acts 2:16-17). And when Cornelius (Gentile) was baptized with the HS that is also connected (Acts 11:15). Thereby fulfilling and bringing Joel's prophecy to an end. If Jesus did not fulfill this prophecy then He was not the Christ and every jot and tittle of the OT law is still in place and binding today, Mt 5:17-18.

But it was fulfilled, ended by Christ leaving His water baptism of the great commission as the one baptism in effect today, (Eph 4:4-5). No verse say baptism with the Holy Spirit will continue till the end of time as Christ's water baptism will continue to the end of time Mt 28:19-20.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Abraham walked with Christ and obeyed Him, being justified by faith the same as we are today. Abraham has the Spirit of Christ in Him the same way we do today.


Why would you believe Abraham is not part of the Natural Olive tree we are grafted into?

The Royal Prieshood, the Holy nation of God, the Church, the Ecclesia, the congregation of the righteous.

The Israel of God. The commonwealth of Israel.

We as Gentiles are grated into that.

This holy nation began with Abraham.


For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. Romans 11:13-18



JLB

The common denominator in being saved under the OT and NT is an obedient faith. Those obedient to the things under the OT law will be judged by that law and be saved. Those under the NT law and obey it will be judged by that law and saved.

1 Pet 1:11 the Spirit of Christ was in those OT characters. My point is what they had to obey under the OT law is different from what we today are to obey under the NT law. For example, Acts 2:38 did not exist under the OT law therefore they were not obligated to obey it as we today are who live under it.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Can you show me a scripture that says we are under something called the New Testament law?



JLB

We are under Christ's NT law as was Paul 1 Cor 9:21. The NT law is the "new covenant" prophesied about back in the OT, Jer 31-31-24 that was not like the OT covenant. That change of law was done by Christ Heb 7:12. Since Christ took the OT law out of the way (Col 2:14) replacing it with His NT law, men are dead to that OT law, Rom 7:4-6

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:28-39


The promise of receiving the Spirit is for as many as call of the name of the Lord.

Do you agree with this scripture?



JLB

The receiving of the Spirit is NOT baptism with the Holy Spirit for that baptism has ceased/ended with there being one baptism now in effect. I believe the gift of the Holy Spirit are the miraculous gifts which eventually ceased by the end of the first century. One can receive a gift of God (1 Cor 7:7) one does not receive God Himself but a gift God gives to men.

"the promise" of Acts 2:38 refers to the Abrahamic promise (Gal 3:28-29) not a promise of baptism with the Holy Spirit.

 

[JLB]

"All flesh" does not mean every single person would be baptized with the Holy Spirit nor animals since animals have flesh. All flesh at that time was made up by two groups, Jews and Gentiles. When the Apostles (Jews) were baptized with the HS Peter directly ties it to Joel's prophecy (Acts 2:16-17). And when Cornelius (Gentile) was baptized with the HS that is also connected (Acts 11:15). Thereby fulfilling and bringing Joel's prophecy to an end. If Jesus did not fulfill this prophecy then He was not the Christ and every jot and tittle of the OT law is still in place and binding today, Mt 5:17-18.

But it was fulfilled, ended by Christ leaving His water baptism of the great commission as the one baptism in effect today, (Eph 4:4-5). No verse say baptism with the Holy Spirit will continue till the end of time as Christ's water baptism will continue to the end of time Mt 28:19-20.

Maybe you didn’t understand the question


Please show me the scripture that’s says the prophecy of Joel, the outpouring of the Spirit upon all flesh, (people) for the last days has ceased?


JLB

 

[JLB]

The receiving of the Spirit is NOT baptism with the Holy Spirit

And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-6

• Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

• And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

Sorry brother, your denomination has indoctrinated you with unbiblical teachings.

Before you said that it ended with Cornelius, now you have changed that error after having been shown the truth.

Now you are saying the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not receiving the Spirit when Paul so plainly says the exacts words of receiving the Holy Spirit as a reference to the baptism with the Spirit.


We know that the Church at Corinth was baptized with the Spirit and spoke in tongues, and it would be reasonable to conclude that all the Churches Paul was associated with also were baptized with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues.


The Promise of the Father, the baptism with the Spirit, is for His children today as it was in the first century. The power to be a witness for Christ.


And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:4-8



Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:38-39

• as many as the Lord our God will call.

Receiving the Holy Spirit is the baptism with the Holy Spirit.




JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Heb 9:15 when Christ was crucified, His blood flowed back to wash away the sins of those who lived under the OT law that obeyed God. Abraham did not obey the NT law for it did not yet exist but obeyed the laws given him by God under the Patriarchal law he lived under.

I can't agree with that "flowed back" position.
The OT folks had their atonements under the Law for their sins, and before there was a Law, sin wasn't charged.
They had no use for the blood of Christ.
Sorry for the derail.

 

[Hopeful]

He baptized the Apostles (Jews) in Acts 2 and Cornelius (Gentile) Acts 10 fulfilling Joel's prophecy.....fulfilling meaning to cease, to being to an end.

I equate baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gift of the Holy Ghost.
So I need to add the twelve at Ephesus, the Samaritans, and myself to your list.

 

[Hopeful]

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:28-39
The promise of receiving the Spirit is for as many as call of the name of the Lord.
Do you agree with this scripture?
JLB

I agree, if the "calling on the name of the Lord" is done at water baptism.

 

[JLB]

I agree, if the "calling on the name of the Lord" is done at water baptism.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
Romans 10:9-13

• if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

• For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

No water baptism is mentioned here, but being saved sure is.



JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I equate baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gift of the Holy Ghost.
So I need to add the twelve at Ephesus, the Samaritans, and myself to your list.

Baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs just twice in the NT, the Apostles Acts 2 Cornelius Acts 10 and this fulfilled-brought to an end Joel's prophecy. Just one baptism (Eph 4:4-5) in effect today that being the water baptism of Christ's great commission (Mk 16;16; Mt 28:19-20) that lasts till the end of time.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I can't agree with that "flowed back" position.
The OT folks had their atonements under the Law for their sins, and before there was a Law, sin wasn't charged.
They had no use for the blood of Christ.
Sorry for the derail.

No one's sins could ever be completely remitted without the blood of Christ. The blood of bulls and goats under the OT law could not do it (Heb 10:1-4). It would take the blood of Christ to wash away all the sins of those OT characters as Abraham. If men can be saved apart from the blood of Christ, then no need for Christ to dies and shed His blood.

Heb 9:15 "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-6

• Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

• And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

Sorry brother, your denomination has indoctrinated you with unbiblical teachings.

Before you said that it ended with Cornelius, now you have changed that error after having been shown the truth.

Now you are saying the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not receiving the Spirit when Paul so plainly says the exacts words of receiving the Holy Spirit as a reference to the baptism with the Spirit.


We know that the Church at Corinth was baptized with the Spirit and spoke in tongues, and it would be reasonable to conclude that all the Churches Paul was associated with also were baptized with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues.


The Promise of the Father, the baptism with the Spirit, is for His children today as it was in the first century. The power to be a witness for Christ.


And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:4-8



Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:38-39

• as many as the Lord our God will call.

Receiving the Holy Spirit is the baptism with the Holy Spirit.




JLB

Acts 19:5 "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

This baptism is the water baptism of the great commission. They were saved having been baptized with this water baptism. After they were saved Paul laid hands upon them passing them a miraculous gift Acts 19:6. Paul laying hands upon then is not baptism with the Holy Spirit. Again, Mt 3:11 only Christ would baptize men with the Holy Spirit, no man then or today has this ability. The context does not call what Paul did in v6 baptism with the Holy Spirit. To call what Paul did in v6 baptism with the HS is calling it something the Bible does not.

Acts 8:16-17 "(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."

Like with the Ephesians in Acts 19 these Samaritans were water baptized with Christ's baptism and saved BEFORE Apostles laid hands upon them giving them miraculous gifts of the Holy Ghost. Again v17 is not Peter and John baptizing the Samaritans with the HS for only Christ could do this. Nor does the context call what peter and John did baptism with the HS.

The ONLY baptism that took place in Acts 8 and 19 was Christ's water baptism of the great commission.

Matt 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

Neither pronoun "you" refers to anyone today. To try and make the pronoun "you" apply to anyone today is grammatical, exegetical error.

You continue to ignroe that by the time Paul penned his Ephesian epistle there was ONE BAPTISM in effect, Eph 4:4-5. Hence the Spirit sent for Phillip to water baptize the Eunuch by which the eunuch was saved. The eunuch was not baptized with the Holy Spirit nor speak in tongues.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Maybe you didn’t understand the question


Please show me the scripture that’s says the prophecy of Joel, the outpouring of the Spirit upon all flesh, (people) for the last days has ceased?


JLB

I did.

I showed how Joel's prophecy ( that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; Joel 2:28) was fulfilled when the Spirit was poured out upon Jew (Apostles) Acts 2 and Gentile (Cornelius) Acts 10. All flesh referring to the two major groups that made up man kind them Jew and Gentile. I showed how Peter directly connected the Holy Spirit being poured out upon the Apostles and Gentiles to Joel's prophecy thereby fulfilling Joel's prophecy, (Acts 2:16-17; Acts 11:15). Again, these are the only two occurrences in the NT of baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Fulfilled means to end, to cease and does not mean to continue on and on.

Again, if Joel's prophecy was not fulfilled by Christ then Jesus was not the Messiah and every jot and tittle of the OT law is binding upon you today.

 

[JLB]

Acts 19:5 "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

This baptism is the water baptism of the great commission

They had already been baptized in water.

When they heard this, they were baptized into Christ by the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13.


Then they were baptized with the Holy Spirit when Paul laid hands on them and the evidence was they spoke in tongues.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I showed how Joel's prophecy ( that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; Joel 2:28) was fulfilled when the Spirit was poured out upon Jew (Apostles) Acts 2 and Gentile (Cornelius) Acts 10.

Sorry but the Corinthians were baptized with the Holy Spirit which was some 10 years after Cornelius.


You have been proven wrong so many times it’s not funny anymore.



JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

They had already been baptized in water.

When they heard this, they were baptized into Christ by the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13.


Then they were baptized with the Holy Spirit when Paul laid hands on them and the evidence was they spoke in tongues.



JLB

THose in Acts 19 had been baptized with John's baptism which had already expired and was invalid by Acts 19 having been replaced with Christ's baptism of Acts 2:38. Hence the need for their being re-baptized with Christ's baptism and saved by Christ's baptism.

Paul could not and did not baptize them with the HS. Again, Mt 3:11 just Christ baptized with the HS and the context does not call what Paul did baptism with the HS. You are calling it something the Bible does not.