When did the Church begin?
- Thread starter Hopeful
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Do you ever get tired of posting unbiblical teaching?
At some point can you stop with your indoctrinated preconceived mindset and believe all the verses that you have been given by myself and others?
How did they all receive the gifts of the Spirit, that Paul was teaching them about, if they weren’t baptized with the Holy Spirit?
- Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation.
Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.
How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
1 Corinthians 14:22-33
We have already seen that speaking in tongues is the result of being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Is there a verse that says Paul was baptized with the Holy Spirit, yet we see the evidence he was, don’t we.
I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;
1 Corinthians 14:18
JLB
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Do you feel that the sins committed in the OT were only "partially" remitted when atonements were made?
It is written..."And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them." (Lev 4:20)
They may not have called their "atonements" remittance, but they were certainly forgiven.
I feel you have misinterpreted Heb 9:15.
You must include 1 Cor 6:11 when inferring we are baptized into Christ by the Spirit only.
The Spirit works in tandem with water baptism into Christ.
See?
Two different events.
First water baptism, this time in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, then the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Also called the gift of the Holy Ghost, in Acts 2:38.[/QUOTE]
Your POV negates Acts 10:47..."Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well we?"
There are two different baptisms involved everywhere.
One done by men and the other done by God.
There was no baptism with the Holy Ghost with the eunuch or others. Baptism with the HS occurs just 2 times in the NT with the Apostles (Jews) Acts 2 and Cornelius (Gentile) Acts 10. This fulfilled Joel's prophecy about the Spirit being poured out upon all flesh,,,all flesh meaning Jew and Gentile.
Cornelius was baptized with the HS to fulfill Joel's prophecy, it had nothing to do with his personal salvation.
There is ONE baptism in effect today (Eph 4:4-5) which is the water baptism of Christ great commission.
Heb 10:1-4 the blood of bulls and goats under the OT law could not take away sin..."For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." It took the blood of Christ to take away the sins of those who lived under the first testament Heb 9:15.
You are projecting that into the scripture because that is what you have been taught.
No scripture says the Spirit works in tandem with water baptism.
Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17
- they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them.
- They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
These Samaritan’s had received the Gospel, and been baptized in water by Phillip, yet had not received the Holy Spirit.
- Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
JLB
No sir.
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38
Repent and or being baptized is the precursor to receiving the Holy Spirit.
Peter is saying “do this“ and you shall receive as in you are now eligible to receive the Holy Spirit.
This is exactly what happened In Samaria where Peter himself went down to them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because they had received the Gospel and been baptized in water, but had not received the Holy Spirit.
Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17
Same thing with Cornelius.
They received the Holy Spirit with evidence, then later they were baptized in water.
And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 10:45-48
- For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
- Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit
Again, water baptism has nothing to do with receiving the Holy Spirit. Nothing.
JLB
It happened to Paul and to the twelve at Ephesus.
It happened to me.
Cornelius received the gift of the Holy Ghost before water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins in an attempt by God to stun the visiting Jews into believing that God had accepted the Gentiles along with the Jews.
One administered by men and one administered by God.
Blood of bulls and goats couldn't "take away sin", but it could atone for them in the OT.
The verse from Leviticus states it..."And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them." (Lev 4:20)
It is undeniable, not a "projection".
The two verses (1 Cor 6:11, 12:13) go hand-in-hand.
Do you believe 1 John 5:8?
" And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. "
They are one.
If either wasn't necessary, why did the apostles make such an effort in Samaria?
You are correct, and God used the event to show that by the laying on of the hands of the faithful the Holy Spirit could also be given.
There is no "OR" involved.
Do both or perish.
I don't see where there is any argument.
Repent, get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Perhaps drawn out a bit by God in order to illustrate that through the laying on of hands the Holy Ghost could be given.
Same thing?
The Samaritans were water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins before they were able to receive the gift.
Cornelius was baptized immediately after his having been given the gift of the Holy Ghost.
You are making doctrinal policy based on time.
A few days (?) in Samaria and a few minutes at Cornelius' home.
In the end, all were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and all received the gift as Peter laid out in Acts 2:38.
Only the non'repentant were denied the gift.
The Spirit of God will not abide in a polluted "temple".
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:11
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13
We are justified by faith, not by water baptism.
1 Corinthians 12:13 shows that the Spirit is the Baptizer.
With water baptism man is the baptizer.
We are justified by faith when we believe and therefore obey the Gospel, apart from water baptism.
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8
- that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand
Abraham was justified by the obedience of faith the same way we are... apart from water baptism.
JLB
Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:42-43
The thief confessed Jesus as Lord (repented) and believed He would continue on after death and be the King of the kingdom of God, which means raised from the dead.
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9
Don’t get me wrong, I definitely believe everyone should be baptized. I just believe the scriptures teach us we are saved, born again by water baptism. I believe the scripture is clear we are saved by grace through faith, when we believe and therefore obey the Gospel.
JLB
The Samaritan’s are a clear example from the Bible of believing the Gospel, getting baptized in water, by not yet receiving the Spirit.
Then Cornelius believed and received the Spirit, then afterward were baptized in water showing that being regeneration and receiving the Spirit, is accomplished apart from water baptism.
Then Paul‘s encounter with the disciples of John clearly show that receiving the Spirit is accomplished apart from water baptism.
Then Paul’s statement to the Galatians is undeniably clear show we receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith.
This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Galatians 3:2
If what you are saying was true, Paul would have said...
Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the dunking of water?
Dunking in water is not how we receive the Spirit.
JLB
Acts 19 is not baptism with the Holy Ghost. Paul laid hands upon them is not baptism with the HS. Mt 2:11 just Christ administers baptism with the HS not any man. Secondly, the context does not call it baptism with the HS. You are calling it something the Bible does not.
Baptism with the HS was prophesied by Joel that God's Spirit would be poured out upon 'all flesh'. Joel 2:28. All flesh does not mean every single person will have the spirit poured out upon them but refers to the two main groups that made up mankind at Joel's time; Jew and Gentile. The Apostles (Jews) were baptized with the HS Acts 2 and Cornelius (Gentile) was baptized with the HS Acts 10 thus Joel's prophecy that all flesh (Jew and Gentile) was fulfilled, ceased ,ended and does not continue on and on.
But no one can be saved while in sin. Therefore it took Christ's blood to take away sin so men could then stand justified before God. If those OT characters could be saved apart from the blood of Christ, then why can't men today also be saved apart from the blood of Christ then Christ died in vain which is basically Paul's point in Gal 2:21. The OT law could not make one righteous before God. If it could no reason for Christ to die. The OT law required flawless, perfect law keeping to be totally justified, righteous before God. To try and keep that law flawlessly perfect in order to be righteous/justified was a rejection of Christ's death on the cross.