When did the Church begin?

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes indeed.
But the Spirit will not abide in an unclean temple.
We are the temple, and must be washed of past sin by the blood of Christ to be deemed fit for the Spirit's abode.

Amen to that, but they could not "press into something" that was not yet provided...that being the body of Christ.

God's people being Spirit-filled is not exclusive to the New Covenant:

"2“See, I have called by name Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. 3And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability, and knowledge in all kinds of craftsmanship, 4to design artistic works in gold, silver, and bronze, 5to cut gemstones for settings, and to carve wood, so that he may be a master of every craft." - Exodus 31:2-5

"11And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for works of ministry and to build up the body of Christ

16 ...the whole body,...grows and builds itself up in love through the work of each individual part." - Ephesians 4:11,12,16

What's 'new' about the Spirit in the New Covenant is it is available to ALL of God's people, not just a select few (Kings, priests, prophets, artisans). ALL of God's people are in the ministry now, being equipped in various ways to labor with skill in the building of the temple in which God resides (us). The Day will bring to light the quality of our workmanship in the building of God:

"10 ...each one must be careful how he builds.
13 his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward." - 1 Corinthians 3:10,13,14

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Agreed, but don't forget repentance from sin is also a necessity.

Yes, repentance along with confession (Mt 10:32-33; Rom 10:9-10) but not until one is water baptized is he saved and added to the church.

 

[JLB]

As Peter said in Acts 2:38, by "baptism for the remission of sins in the name of Jesus Christ".
And as Ananias said to Paul in Acts 22:18, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Let me ask another way.

How do we appropriate what happened on the cross, 2000 years ago?



JLB

 

[JLB]

No it isn't, but in the next verse it is..."Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,"
Sanctified, cleansed by a washing of water by the word.

The word is referring to the Gospel message.

Water baptism does not “wash away” our sins.

When we hear and obey the Gospel we are sanctified, and cleansed.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23


You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. John 15:3


Keep in mind this principle, and that it occurred before Pentecost.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Right, they are clean.

And this occurs when we obey the Gospel.

 

[JLB]

He believed and acted faithfully on that belief.
We do the same.

To continue in this line...do you believe we are tested the same way Abraham was?

Not if you specifically with his son.

Yes, if you mean tested through trials and persecution.

 

[JLB]

Yes, the kingdom of God.
I wonder how many of them realized they would need to cast off the kingdom they were leaving behind?

Repent deals with that.


Do you understand this word, and what it implies?

 

[JLB]

When did the Church begin?



The church began at Pentecost, Acts 2. Peter, as the other Apostles, was given the keys to the kingdom (church) (Mt 16:18-19). Peter used these keys to "unlock" the door of the kingdom telling people how to enter the kingdom (Acts 2:38) to the Jews first in Acts 2 and then the Gentiles (Acts 10:47-48). Those obedient in submitting to water baptism (saved) were added to the church, (Acts 2:47), the body of the saved (Eph 5:23).

"THOSE THAT WERE SAVED"-Seeing that the Church is purchased with the blood of Christ (Acts 20:28); and the blood of Christ is associated with the remission of sins (Matthew 26:28); and baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38); it makes perfect sense that the Lord immediately adds to the Church (the blood bought body) those who accept the gospel and are baptized (come into contact with the benefits of Christ's death)." Dunagan Comm.

So the evidence that a person is saved is they are baptized with the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues.

This is what the UPC claims.


So you believe no one was saved when Jesus preached the Gospel?


JLB

 

[Hopeful]

God's people being Spirit-filled is not exclusive to the New Covenant:

"2“See, I have called by name Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. 3And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability, and knowledge in all kinds of craftsmanship, 4to design artistic works in gold, silver, and bronze, 5to cut gemstones for settings, and to carve wood, so that he may be a master of every craft." - Exodus 31:2-5

"11And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for works of ministry and to build up the body of Christ

16 ...the whole body,...grows and builds itself up in love through the work of each individual part." - Ephesians 4:11,12,16

What's 'new' about the Spirit in the New Covenant is it is available to ALL of God's people, not just a select few (Kings, priests, prophets, artisans). ALL of God's people are in the ministry now, being equipped in various ways to labor with skill in the building of the temple in which God resides (us). The Day will bring to light the quality of our workmanship in the building of God:

"10 ...each one must be careful how he builds.
13 his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward." - 1 Corinthians 3:10,13,14

Amen to that.

 

[Hopeful]

Repent deals with that.
Do you understand this word, and what it implies?

Yes, I do.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, repentance along with confession (Mt 10:32-33; Rom 10:9-10) but not until one is water baptized is he saved and added to the church.

I can't apply the "saved" moniker to anyone, as it won't be assured till they hear their name is in the book of life.

 

[Hopeful]

Let me ask another way.
How do we appropriate what happened on the cross, 2000 years ago?
JLB

By "appropriate", I hear "attain"...correct?
We profit from what happened on the cross by joining with Christ to die, get buried, and get "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life", with Jesus Christ.
This happens when we are water baptized into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection from the tomb. (Rom 6:3-7)

 

[Hopeful]

The word is referring to the Gospel message.
Water baptism does not “wash away” our sins.
When we hear and obey the Gospel we are sanctified, and cleansed.
Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23
You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. John 15:3
Keep in mind this principle, and that it occurred before Pentecost.
JLB

I'm surprised Peter didn't say "that" in Acts 2:38????

 

[JLB]

By "appropriate", I hear "attain"...correct?
We profit from what happened on the cross by joining with Christ to die, get buried, and get "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life", with Jesus Christ.
This happens when we are water baptized into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection from the tomb. (Rom 6:3-7)

We are baptized into Christ by the Spirit, not by water baptism.

 

[JLB]

I'm surprised Peter didn't say "that" in Acts 2:38????

What does receiving the Holy Spirit mean to you?

 

[JLB]

By "appropriate", I hear "attain"...correct?
We profit from what happened on the cross by joining with Christ to die, get buried, and get "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life", with Jesus Christ.
This happens when we are water baptized into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection from the tomb. (Rom 6:3-7)

We appropriate what Jesus Christ did 2000 years ago, by faith.

By the obedience of faith. Believing and therefore obeying the Gospel.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

• For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

JLB

 

[JLB]

I can't apply the "saved" moniker to anyone, as it won't be assured till they hear their name is in the book of life.

Yes, we will receive the salvation of our soul, on the day of Judgement, when we hear these words:


Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


However, until then we are saved by faith. which means we have the hope of salvation because the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are His child.





JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I can't apply the "saved" moniker to anyone, as it won't be assured till they hear their name is in the book of life.

A person is saved in the sense that God's promises are so certain as if it already has happened, that is, if one becomes a Christian and faithfully remain a Christian he will for certain be saved, hence he is said to be "saved" i.e., have everlasting life as in Jn 3:16.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So the evidence that a person is saved is they are baptized with the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues.

This is what the UPC claims.


So you believe no one was saved when Jesus preached the Gospel?


JLB

The only two places in the NT people were baptized with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (and neither being baptized with the HS or speaking in tongues had to do with their personal salvation) was the Apostles in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10 which fulfilled Joel's prophecy whereby that does not occur today.

Phillip water baptized the eunuch and he went on his way rejoicing for he was now saved...no baptism with the Holy Spirit or speaking in tongues.

Does the UPC teach one is baptized with the HS in order to be saved or because one is already saved?

Yes, men were saved by Jesus' preaching. At the time of Jesus' earthly ministry the OT law was still in effect (Heb 9:16-17) and it was a unique time of transition going from the OT to NT. Jesus had been given all power/authority (Mt 28:18) to make this transition (Mt 5:22,28,32, etc)

Acts 2:38 of the NT was not yet in effect during Christ's earthly ministry.

 

[JLB]

Phillip water baptized the eunuch and he went on his way rejoicing for he was now saved...no baptism with the Holy Spirit or speaking in tongues.

Phillip did not have that ability which was why Peter and John had to come down from Jerusalem to accomplish that.


Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-18

• Samaria had received the Gospel message.

• Samaria had been baptized in water;... They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

• However through Phillips ministry they had not yet received the Holy Spirit ... Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them.

JLB