UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE-THE HOLY SPIRIT/SCHOLARS

[GodsGrace]

Many times on these threads we hear that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth
and that we need to depend on the Holy Spirit to understand the bible.

John 16:13
But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

If this is so, then we do we not all believe the same truth?

The New Testament also tells us that we are to be taught our faith.

1 Timothy 5:17
17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

Titus 1:9
9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

This thread might also bring up the topic of ESEGESIS and EXEGESIS....
Are we to make up our own doctrine?
And how do we know if we are?

 

[GodsGrace]

I'd like to tag:
Lilac
OzSpen

for specific reasons...

I look forward to everyone's opinion.

 

[JLB]

Many times on these threads we hear that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth
and that we need to depend on the Holy Spirit to understand the bible.

John 16:13
But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

If this is so, then we do we not all believe the same truth?

The New Testament also tells us that we are to be taught our faith.

1 Timothy 5:17
17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

Titus 1:9
9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

This thread might also bring up the topic of ESEGESIS and EXEGESIS....
Are we to make up our own doctrine?
And how do we know if we are?

I agree we need the Holy Spirit to enable us to understand.

If we see the Spirit with these aspects, it becomes clear as to why.


The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him,
The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The Spirit of counsel and might,
The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
Isaiah 11:2


This seven-fold expression of the Spirit is typified by the Menorah, the seven-fold candle stick found in the Tabernacle.


The Spirit of the Lord being the main truck, with three branches on each side.


The Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding is an expression of the Spirit. Likewise the Spirit of Knowledge.


Paul says it this way —


For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; Colossians 1:9


In Hebrews it says —


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, Hebrews 6:4-5



I personally believe true revelatory understanding comes from the Spirit, who inspired the scriptures.


However, we must do our part and study to show ourselves approved. We also must ask for wisdom from God.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree we need the Holy Spirit to enable us to understand.

If we see the Spirit with these aspects, it becomes clear as to why.


The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him,
The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The Spirit of counsel and might,
The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
Isaiah 11:2


This seven-fold expression of the Spirit is typified by the Menorah, the seven-fold candle stick found in the Tabernacle.


The Spirit of the Lord being the main truck, with three branches on each side.


The Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding is an expression of the Spirit. Likewise the Spirit of Knowledge.


Paul says it this way —


For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; Colossians 1:9


In Hebrews it says —


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, Hebrews 6:4-5



I personally believe true revelatory understanding comes from the Spirit, who inspired the scriptures.


However, we must do our part and study to show ourselves approved. We also must ask for wisdom from God.



JLB

I think the above is a good way of looking at the question at hand.
The Holy Spirit could give us the understanding that is needed to learn what God would have for us.
I also believe that we are all at different levels in our walk and that could be one reason why we don't all
accept the same doctrine.

By the same token,,,yes,,, if we don't do some studying we will not know many concepts that could be of help to us.
We may hear others tell us what they believe to be truth when, in actuality, it is not even a Christian belief....so this is
why it's good to study our faith.

How do we study it? In my opinion,,,it should be studied in a denomination that is considered to be mainline in its Christian
belief system and whose theologians are accredited by a respected university that teaches our faith.

There are some that can open a bible and read it on their own and make connections and come to good conclusions...
but I fear most will not be like this and develop odd ideas.

 

[JLB]

There are some that can open a bible and read it on their own and make connections and come to good conclusions...
but I fear most will not be like this and develop odd ideas.

Amen

 

[JLB]

We may hear others tell us what they believe to be truth when, in actuality, it is not even a Christian belief....so this is
why it's good to study our faith.

That being said, how much more do we need the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth to lead us and guide us in these matters.


We know a person can indeed depart from the faith because they listened to a doctrine of demons, whether directly or indirectly through another person.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1



For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:14






JLB

 

[WIP]

Many times on these threads we hear that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth
and that we need to depend on the Holy Spirit to understand the bible.

John 16:13
But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

If this is so, then we do we not all believe the same truth?

The New Testament also tells us that we are to be taught our faith.

1 Timothy 5:17
17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

Titus 1:9
9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

This thread might also bring up the topic of ESEGESIS and EXEGESIS....
Are we to make up our own doctrine?
And how do we know if we are?

This brings up a question. Was the reformation wrong by going against those whose work was preaching and teaching?

 

[GodsGrace]

This brings up a question. Was the reformation wrong by going against those whose work was preaching and teaching?

The reformation was wrong, period.
It taught against everything the early church taught...that would be those that learned from the Apostles, and those that learned from them, etc. And so on.

The church taught nothing of the reformed doctrine until Luther, Knox, Calvin, etc.

It did not teach what the Apostles taught.

 

[tdidymas]

Many times on these threads we hear that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth
and that we need to depend on the Holy Spirit to understand the bible.

John 16:13
But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

If this is so, then we do we not all believe the same truth?

The New Testament also tells us that we are to be taught our faith.

1 Timothy 5:17
17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

Titus 1:9
9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

This thread might also bring up the topic of ESEGESIS and EXEGESIS....
Are we to make up our own doctrine?
And how do we know if we are?

The apostles spent many years studying the scriptures to come up with sound doctrine. Of course, it was guided by the Holy Spirit. They also had revelations of new truth that had not been revealed before. When Jesus said the Spirit will guide them to all the truth, He was talking to the apostles, not to us. This is in accordance with 1 Jn. 4:6 "We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error." The "us" is the apostles, since he is writing to the churches.

Those who want to take shortcuts by looking at scripture one verse at a time and relying on their own ideas and opinions are not mature, and are essentially lazy. Therefore, we must be diligent to learn the scripture as a whole and not be lazy in our studies. If we ask God for wisdom (Jam. 1:5), He will give it, but He won't if we don't search for it in the scriptures, because God doesn't reward laziness.

Therefore, Jn. 16:13 applies to us in this way: if we seek God diligently by means of the scripture, and if we are sincere in our faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit will help us to understand what we read. We cannot expect God to give us new revelations, because He is NOT doing that, and this is what the whole idea of canon (standard of scripture) is about.

When people read certain verses of the Bible, and some idea pops into their head about it, this is not the Holy Spirit, if that person hasn't diligently studied the scripture to see if that idea is of God or not. The scripture follows the rule of non-contradiction, and if our interpretation of a verse is contradicted by any scripture, then our interpretation is a misunderstanding. Just because someone gets a new idea that "feels inspiring" doesn't mean it's the Holy Spirit. Many bad ideas have been believed because they felt right. Such are ideas of the flesh.

So, according to 1 Thes. 5:21, we are to examine everything carefully. This includes what comes out of the mouth of our leaders, although we are to respect them and submit, even if we disagree with their opinions (provided those opinions do not blatantly violate God's word) - 1 Thes. 5:12-13.

And since you brought it up, I disagree with your opinion about the reformation leaders. Although I don't agree with everything they wrote, I do respect their teaching and instruction, especially since they articulate many things in agreement with what God has shown me in the scripture (on my own). IMO they have shown themselves to be qualified by their diligent labors to know the truth and communicate it to others (1 Thes. 5:12).

 

[GodsGrace]

That being said, how much more do we need the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth to lead us and guide us in these matters.


We know a person can indeed depart from the faith because they listened to a doctrine of demons, whether directly or indirectly through another person.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1



For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:14






JLB

I do think that part of the problem of those departing from the faith...or at least its teachings...
do so because it seems that today everyone could just believe whatever they want to.

Before the 20th century..or at least the latter part of the past century...persons began to do eisegesis instead of exegesis.

People read the bible but depended on their church to translate what it meant.
For some reasons this was worse because we are to have a personal relationship with God.
For some reasons this was better because persons tended to agree more with each other.
These days we have differing opinions even in the Catholic Church...OR, they were always present
even in the past, but it was not noticeable to the laity.

 

[Who Me]

Jesus also said that the Spirit would remind you of what he had taught them. John 14:26.
Implying if we don't know what he has said then we cannot be reminded of it.


As we are also to be prepared to give a Reason for what and why we believe. We should be diligent in our studies of scripture and of what different teachers have said about it.

There are plenty of references to training, to struggling, about discipline of the Christian life for it to be clear we have to be responcible for knowing what and why we believe.

 

[GodsGrace]

The apostles spent many years studying the scriptures to come up with sound doctrine. Of course, it was guided by the Holy Spirit. They also had revelations of new truth that had not been revealed before. When Jesus said the Spirit will guide them to all the truth, He was talking to the apostles, not to us. This is in accordance with 1 Jn. 4:6 "We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error." The "us" is the apostles, since he is writing to the churches.

Yes, the Apostles were led by the Holy Spirit....
but let's not forget that they were with Jesus for over 3 years and He taught them everything important that He wanted to convey to us.
In a few years, He said much more than ever could be written in our N.T....It would have taken books.

Those who want to take shortcuts by looking at scripture one verse at a time and relying on their own ideas and opinions are not mature, and are essentially lazy. Therefore, we must be diligent to learn the scripture as a whole and not be lazy in our studies. If we ask God for wisdom (Jam. 1:5), He will give it, but He won't if we don't search for it in the scriptures, because God doesn't reward laziness.

It's especially important to read the N.T. cover to cover because it relays specific ideas that are not captured if read
a few verses at a time. Reading the entire N.T. cnveys, IMO, what it means for us to understand...even though some scripture
is not easy....and I believe there are some verses we will never understand.

Therefore, Jn. 16:13 applies to us in this way: if we seek God diligently by means of the scripture, and if we are sincere in our faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit will help us to understand what we read. We cannot expect God to give us new revelations, because He is NOT doing that, and this is what the whole idea of canon (standard of scripture) is about.

Canon exists in the CC but I don't believe it exists in Protestantism. I may be wrong.
Although, I just say, that the two denominations I'm familiar with are very similar in doctrine.
This is comforting to me.

When people read certain verses of the Bible, and some idea pops into their head about it, this is not the Holy Spirit, if that person hasn't diligently studied the scripture to see if that idea is of God or not. The scripture follows the rule of non-contradiction, and if our interpretation of a verse is contradicted by any scripture, then our interpretation is a misunderstanding. Just because someone gets a new idea that "feels inspiring" doesn't mean it's the Holy Spirit. Many bad ideas have been believed because they felt right. Such are ideas of the flesh.

Amen to that!
First of all we're to follow the example of the Bereans.
We're to make sure that everything we hear can be verified in scripture and that it makes sense to us.
Second...your statement that there is to be no conflict in scripture is more than important...
Some persons are told that their understanding of a verse must be inaccurate because it conflicts with other verses...
but they fail to understand the importance of this.
If there is conflict in verses...then no verse can be trusted!

So, according to 1 Thes. 5:21, we are to examine everything carefully. This includes what comes out of the mouth of our leaders, although we are to respect them and submit, even if we disagree with their opinions (provided those opinions do not blatantly violate God's word) - 1 Thes. 5:12-13.

Agreed.

And since you brought it up, I disagree with your opinion about the reformation leaders. Although I don't agree with everything they wrote, I do respect their teaching and instruction, especially since they articulate many things in agreement with what God has shown me in the scripture (on my own). IMO they have shown themselves to be qualified by their diligent labors to know the truth and communicate it to others (1 Thes. 5:12).

The reformation was necessary...
However, if we want to be intellectually honest, we'll have to admit that nothing like what was believed at the reformation was ever taught before...beginning with the Apostles. Why would this be unless what was taught at the reformation was wrong?

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus also said that the Spirit would remind you of what he had taught them. John 14:26.
Implying if we don't know what he has said then we cannot be reminded of it.

In John 14:26 Jesus was speaking to the Apostles and telling them that the Holy Spirit would remind them of all Jesus had taught them so that they could pass it on as He instructed them in Matthew 28:20 saying to teach the nations what Jesus had commanded them (the Apostles) to observe.

As to us being reminded of it...
Yes!
First of all, every time we read scripture, we seem to get a new small or large insight into something not noticed before.
Also, as you've stated, we're reminded of something we may have forgotten.

As we are also to be prepared to give a Reason for what and why we believe. We should be diligent in our studies of scripture and of what different teachers have said about it.

There are plenty of references to training, to struggling, about discipline of the Christian life for it to be clear we have to be responcible for knowing what and why we believe.

Amen to that.
We all should be very familiar with our faith...meaning the doctrines that are taught by our faith.
And if there's something we don't understand, we should ask questions until we do.
This is how we learn.

 

[OzSpen]

The reformation was wrong, period.
It taught against everything the early church taught...that would be those that learned from the Apostles, and those that learned from them, etc. And so on.

The church taught nothing of the reformed doctrine until Luther, Knox, Calvin, etc.

It did not teach what the Apostles taught.

wondering,

That is incorrect regarding reformed doctrine taught by Luther, Knox and Calvin. It was taught long before that by St Augustine. Take a read of his understanding of predestination/election. See: https://reflectionsbyken.wordpress....ugustine-contributed-to-philosophy-part-ii-2/

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

That is incorrect regarding reformed doctrine taught by Luther, Knox and Calvin. It was taught long before that by St Augustine. Take a read of his understanding of predestination/election. See: https://reflectionsbyken.wordpress....ugustine-contributed-to-philosophy-part-ii-2/

Oz

Don't need to read that but I will.
Augustine is not an Early Church Father.
He was gnostic and brought his gnosticism with him when he decided to become Catholic.
He was a brain but I have no respect for him.
He was wrong about original sin too.
Even the CC does not accept his doctrine anymore and never should have.
I believe predestination, which the early church did not teach, is a horrible belief and is not biblical.

Anyway, I don't mind derails at all
But could you reply to the O.P.?

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

That is incorrect regarding reformed doctrine taught by Luther, Knox and Calvin. It was taught long before that by St Augustine. Take a read of his understanding of predestination/election. See: https://reflectionsbyken.wordpress....ugustine-contributed-to-philosophy-part-ii-2/

Oz

Just read it.
Nothing new.

 

[JLB]

I do think that part of the problem of those departing from the faith...or at least its teachings...
do so because it seems that today everyone could just believe whatever they want to.

Before the 20th century..or at least the latter part of the past century...persons began to do eisegesis instead of exegesis.

People read the bible but depended on their church to translate what it meant.
For some reasons this was worse because we are to have a personal relationship with God.
For some reasons this was better because persons tended to agree more with each other.
These days we have differing opinions even in the Catholic Church...OR, they were always present
even in the past, but it was not noticeable to the laity.

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:16

 

[OzSpen]

Many times on these threads we hear that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth
and that we need to depend on the Holy Spirit to understand the bible.

John 16:13
But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

If this is so, then we do we not all believe the same truth?

The New Testament also tells us that we are to be taught our faith.

1 Timothy 5:17
17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

Titus 1:9
9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

This thread might also bring up the topic of ESEGESIS and EXEGESIS....
Are we to make up our own doctrine?
And how do we know if we are?

wondering,

You stated: "If this is so, then we do we not all believe the same truth?" Would you please translate that question so I understand? There are some added words in the sentence that confuse me.

Of John 16:13, Ellicott's commentary states:

He is called the Spirit of Truth, because part of His special office is to bring truth home to the hearts of men [people], to carry it from the material to the moral sphere, to make it something more than a collection of signs seen or heard--a living power in living men [people].​

We don't have the same "truth" because our human nature too easily interferes with what God tells us so that we "hear" a combination of God and us.

I agree with the verses you provided to illustrate that our faith needs to be taught. First Corinthians 12 teaches us that some are given the gift of teachers (see also Eph 4; Rom 12). In my part of the world, too many preachers/teachers don't seem to me to have the gift of teaching. They don't do their homework and want to "rely on the Holy Spirit's leading" when they enter the pulpit. As a result I've heard some atrocious preaching over the years.

As you suggested, there is the added problem of teachers reading their own ideas into Scripture, which is eisegesis. The better approach is obtaining the meaning from the text, which is exegesis. The etymology (origin) of this word is the Greek preposition, ek (out of) as a prefix to hēgéomai, “I lead, guide”. So, exegesis is obtaining the meaning of a document, including the Bible, based on what the text states.

By contrast, eisegesis is from the Greek, eis = into + hēgéomai, “I lead, guide.” When preachers read their own views into the biblical text, they are engaging in eisegesis. Many of the worst cases of eisegesis I hear today are with allegorical interpretation. It was a problem in the early church as well with Clement of Alexandria and Origen.

Oz

 

[Hopeful]

Many times on these threads we hear that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth
and that we need to depend on the Holy Spirit to understand the bible.

John 16:13
But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

If this is so, then we do we not all believe the same truth?

Because not everyone has the Holy Ghost.
There are many false Christians, ordained from the start to weaken and misguide us.

The New Testament also tells us that we are to be taught our faith.

1 Timothy 5:17
17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

Titus 1:9
9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

This thread might also bring up the topic of ESEGESIS and EXEGESIS....
Are we to make up our own doctrine?
And how do we know if we are?

The church has been supplied by God with apostles, evangelist, teachers, and prophets. (Eph 4:11)
Heed them, and their life-styles.

Those who really want to learn from God will be taught by God, or His representatives.

 

[Lilac]

There are many false Christians, ordained from the start to weaken and misguide us.

Yes, that is why it says 1. Thess 5...
so in a way, I believe what Oz wrote, in another thread: we need to search and test what the preacher tells us is it true? Can we trust what is being 'preached' to us?