UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE-THE HOLY SPIRIT/SCHOLARS

[GodsGrace]

Wondering wrote:

"Most theologians, including myself (except I'm not a theologian) believe the early
church ended at the council of Nicea in 325 AD. This is because the church got involved
with state matters and began to lose its way."

And what was the major change as enforced by the Roman Emperor at that Council?

I remember that it had to do with the Creed,,,but cannot remember why.
Would have to check.

But after Constantine called this council the church was never the same again.

First Council of Nicaea, (325), the first ecumenical council of the Christian church, meeting in ancient Nicaea (now İznik, Turkey). It was called by the emperor Constantine I, an unbaptized catechumen, who presided over the opening session and took part in the discussions. He hoped a general council of the church would solve the problem created in the Eastern church by Arianism, a heresy first proposed by Arius of Alexandria that affirmed that Christ is not divine but a created being. Pope Sylvester I did not attend the council but was represented by legates.

source: https://www.britannica.com/event/First-Council-of-Nicaea-325

The important declaration was made here. This changed the church into a quasi government:


On February 27, 380, in Thessaloniki, the Eastern Roman Emperor Theodosius I (347 - 395) signed a decree in the presence of the Western Roman Emperor Valentinian II (371 - 392) that made Christianity the religion of the state and punished the practice of pagan rituals.

source: https://www.dw.com/en/christianity-...ary 27, 380, in,the practice of pagan rituals.


If you have anything to add, please do so.

 

[for_his_glory]

It's good if you can do it like this. I also believe it necessary sometimes to have a bible teacher/ preacher to address passages. But if I read the bible myself, I would encounter passages and understanding certain things that I did not before.
So I guess for me it's good to do both. As I also have partial impairment in my brains, I don't always understand everything someone tries to say. I would 'zone out' and only hear parts of it.

Sorry to hear about your impairment. It would be hard for you, but even the Holy Spirit can penetrate out impairments and give us simplicity of knowledge. Even teacher/preachers miss it at times as even they/ me are not infallible when it comes to teaching the word of God. At least with me if am not correct the Holy Spirit always sends someone with more knowledge to correct me and that I do appreciate.

 

[Hopeful]

I agree.
In matters regarding the salvation of our soul, we should definitely be of one mind.
But instead some message are directly opposed to one another.
How would one know which person is correct?
Take OSAS for instance. I believe this can affect a person's soul because some believe
they can live as they want to and it will not affect their salvation.
This is obviously wrong.
Are they listening to a teacher that does not have the Holy Spirit?

My main difference maker in the things I here is whether or not they accommodate sin.
OSAS accommodates sin.
It is a doctrine in direct opposition to obedience to God.
Anyone teaching it is OK to disobey God, doesn't have the Spirit of God.

 

[Lilac]

I remember that it had to do with the Creed,,,but cannot remember why.
Would have to check.

But after Constantine called this council the church was never the same again.

First Council of Nicaea, (325),

Persecutions Under the Arian Heretics - Fox's Book of Martyrs

Read about Persecutions Under the Arian Heretics - {article-text}

www.biblestudytools.com

 

[Lilac]

Actually, we should be living as the early church believed.
The church does not change, God does not change, even in this digital man-made world.

brilliant. let's start then... :woot
need a framework how to.
1. pray to God for guidance
2. study how they lived and believed, in the early days
I.A

 

[GodsGrace]

brilliant. let's start then... :woot
need a framework how to.
1. pray to God for guidance
2. study how they lived and believed, in the early days
I.A

In the early days of the church it was believed that man was saved by believing in Jesus
and by obeying His/the commandments.

They helped each other and were honest and simple in their belief, but their love was so great that
they were willing to die for Christ, and many of them did because of persecution by the Roman Empire.

They met on Sundays to worship and to hear the word.
They learned from the letters that had been circulating to the different churches; letters like
Romans, Galatians, Timothy, James, Peter, etc.

The fought heresy and there was a lot of it....they kept the church safe for us to enjoy.
The biggest heresy at the time was gnosticism. Arianism was also a belief some had.
They put together some doctrine...like the Trinity and the nature of Jesus: Fully God, fully man.

If you want to get an idea of what the early church believed, you should read The Didache.
Simple and straightforward. The date is not known, but it's probably around 90 AD.

There was no talk about OSAS or the Preservation of the Saints. Christians were to obey the commandments or become lost.
There was no talk about predestination...it was not even considered.
There was no talk about the necessity of baptism...every believer was baptized.

Here's a link to the didache:

~The Didache~

<i>Read the Catholic Teachings of St. Peter and His Apostles as written in the Didache (circa 96 A.D.) Historically these sacred instructions are [also] known as The Lord's teaching to the heathen by the Twelve Apostles.

www.thedidache.com

 

[GodsGrace]

Persecutions Under the Arian Heretics - Fox's Book of Martyrs

Read about Persecutions Under the Arian Heretics - {article-text}

www.biblestudytools.com

Thanks Lilac.

I also remember that the Creed was being created and there were questions about THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
Was Jesus created or begotten?

I'll post it here:

Nicene Creed A.D. 325​

We believe in one God, the father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father, Light of light, Very God of very God, begotten not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate and was made man; He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven, from there He shall come to judge both the quick and the dead; and in the Holy Spirit.[4]

It was changed in 381 at the Council of Constantinople:
The Nicene Creed of A.D. 381 reads as follows. The italicized paragraph primary is the change between A.D. 325 and A.D. 381.

We believe in one God, the father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, light from light, Very God of very God, begotten not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate; and suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father; and he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life; who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets. And Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

It was decided at the Council of Ephesus that the Creed of 325 was correct in wording.


You can find more information here:

What is the Nicene Creed of A.D. 325 and A.D. 381? | NeverThirsty

What is the Nicene Creed of A.D. 325? You will discover that the creed was created to refute a hersery about Jesus Christ.

www.neverthirsty.org

 

[GodsGrace]

My main difference maker in the things I here is whether or not they accommodate sin.
OSAS accommodates sin.
It is a doctrine in direct opposition to obedience to God.
Anyone teaching it is OK to disobey God, doesn't have the Spirit of God.

Agreed.
It's a dangerous belief and will mislead many as Jesus said in
Matthew 7:23 to depart from Him....those that were LAWLESS.

Those that affirm OSAS will reply that Jesus said He did not KNOW them...
thus the lost were not saved. Jesus never mentions this in this verse....He does, however,
state that it is the lawless that will be lost.

 

[Hopeful]

Agreed.
It's a dangerous belief and will mislead many as Jesus said in
Matthew 7:23 to depart from Him....those that were LAWLESS.

Those that affirm OSAS will reply that Jesus said He did not KNOW them...
thus the lost were not saved. Jesus never mentions this in this verse....He does, however,
state that it is the lawless that will be lost.

If Jesus never knew them, they were never "saved".
I don't know how they can take comfort in that. ??
It is self-indictment !

 

[Lilac]

Thanks Lilac.

I also remember that the Creed was being created and there were questions about THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
Was Jesus created or begotten?

I'll post it here:

Nicene Creed A.D. 325​

We believe in one God, the father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father, Light of light, Very God of very God, begotten not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate and was made man; He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven, from there He shall come to judge both the quick and the dead; and in the Holy Spirit.[4]

It was changed in 381 at the Council of Constantinople:
The Nicene Creed of A.D. 381 reads as follows. The italicized paragraph primary is the change between A.D. 325 and A.D. 381.

We believe in one God, the father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, light from light, Very God of very God, begotten not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate; and suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father; and he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life; who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets. And Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

It was decided at the Council of Ephesus that the Creed of 325 was correct in wording.


You can find more information here:

What is the Nicene Creed of A.D. 325 and A.D. 381? | NeverThirsty

What is the Nicene Creed of A.D. 325? You will discover that the creed was created to refute a hersery about Jesus Christ.

www.neverthirsty.org

so, why would one need a Creed, if there is the bible (books)? Wasn't this to establish 'the one true church' in order to bind powers and start ruling also over worldly issues?

 

[Hopeful]

so, why would one need a Creed, if there is the bible (books)? Wasn't this to establish 'the one true church' in order to bind powers and start ruling also over worldly issues?

There were no bibles during the time the "creeds" were written.
Why would the church be concerned with "worldly matters"?
We are not of this world !

 

[GodsGrace]

If Jesus never knew them, they were never "saved".
I don't know how they can take comfort in that. ??
It is self-indictment !

They take comfort in it because of the fact that those believing in OSAS think it means
they were never saved.

Those that believe in OSAS think that they are saved....so Jesus doesn't mean THEM....
even though they might be living a lawless life.

That's how they take comfort....
but there is no comfort to be had if one is living a lawless life.
Jesus does not even mention being born again much...maybe a couple of times.
He does, instead, speak about how we are to behave in order to be in the Kingdom of God
and remain in the Kingdom of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

so, why would one need a Creed, if there is the bible (books)? Wasn't this to establish 'the one true church' in order to bind powers and start ruling also over worldly issues?

The "books" were circulation,,,,but many could not read.
A creed states what is to be believed if a person wants to be of that particular religion.
If we don't agree with the creed, we cannot consider ourselves Christian.
It's kind of like a statement of faith for this site or for a church.

 

[Hopeful]

They take comfort in it because of the fact that those believing in OSAS think it means
they were never saved.

You need to edit that to..."...in OSAS DON'T think it means..."

Those that believe in OSAS think that they are saved....so Jesus doesn't mean THEM....
even though they might be living a lawless life.
That's how they take comfort....
but there is no comfort to be had if one is living a lawless life.
Jesus does not even mention being born again much...maybe a couple of times.
He does, instead, speak about how we are to behave in order to be in the Kingdom of God
and remain in the Kingdom of God.

Folks look for the easiest way to heaven.
Even if it is a lie.
Their comfort comes from those who are like-minded.

 

[Hopeful]

The "books" were circulation,,,,but many could not read.
A creed states what is to be believed if a person wants to be of that particular religion.
If we don't agree with the creed, we cannot consider ourselves Christian.
It's kind of like a statement of faith for this site or for a church.

Actually, if you don't believe that creed you cannot consider yourself a member of that particular sect.

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually, if you don't believe that creed you cannot consider yourself a member of that particular sect.

You think so?
Which part of this creed do you not agree with?

Nicene Creed of 325 AD (which is what we were discussing):

Nicene Creed as adopted in 325​

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty,
Maker of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
he Son of God, begotten of the Father
the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father,
God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God,
begotten, not made, being of one substance (ὁμοούσιον) with the Father;
by whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth;
who for us men, and for our salvation,
came down and was incarnate and was made man;
he suffered, and the third day he rose again,
ascended into heaven; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
And in the Holy Ghost.

 

[Hopeful]

You think so?
Which part of this creed do you not agree with?

Nicene Creed of 325 AD (which is what we were discussing):

Nicene Creed as adopted in 325​

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty,
Maker of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
he Son of God, begotten of the Father
the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father,
God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God,
begotten, not made, being of one substance (ὁμοούσιον) with the Father;
by whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth;
who for us men, and for our salvation,
came down and was incarnate and was made man;
he suffered, and the third day he rose again,
ascended into heaven; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
And in the Holy Ghost.

I'm not saying I disagree with any of that creed.
But believing a creed doesn't make a man a Christian.

I find that particular creed remiss in that it doesn't even mention the Word...that was made flesh.
It may make them a catholic or baptist or an episcopalian or methodist, but not a Christian.

 

[Lilac]

What is meant with OSAS? thanks

 

[JLB]

What is meant with OSAS? thanks

Once Saved Always Saved


It’s a doctrine that teaches you can live in sin and still remain saved not matter what.


It’s based on the theory that God elects some for salvation and they will never be lost, while He elects others for eternal damnation and they will never be saved.



Based on the teachings of Calvinism.





JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not saying I disagree with any of that creed.
But believing a creed doesn't make a man a Christian.

Of course it does....
If a person believes everything stated in the Nicene Creed that makes him a Christian.
There are other versions of the Creed, BTW.
The new versions are more complete.
What makes a person a Christian otherwise?

I find that particular creed remiss in that it doesn't even mention the Word...that was made flesh.
It may make them a catholic or baptist or an episcopalian or methodist, but not a Christian.

It does mention that Jesus became incarnate.

And the Creed is used by most denominations, some might have a slight difference but nothing of importance.
Aren't Baptists, Episcopalians and Methodists Christian?