In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

[GodsGrace]

But I'm not a Calvinist. So I'll stick with the premise that our God is a Loving, Merciful, and Just God. So He Gifted us, Free will so that there is no force. Only Free will.

Sigh...I just burned my cheesecake. It was supposed to be 55 minutes and it was 2 hours.
I think I'm ready for bed too.

Down south, they'd call it blackened cheesecake and charge you extra.

 

[Free]

I wondered who was going to bust my chops about the ice cream, lol! Point well taken Brother.

We are not truely free yet, that is the promise of the Bile. God will save us and make us free. Are the unsaved free to choose to serve God? Excellant question!

Let's see here,

Mark 5 I think.

Mark 5:1-20 is the story of the man possessed by a legion of spirits. When Jesus first got off the boat, that man (not the demons) ran to Jesus and began to worship Him. That made the demns mad and they started talking to Jesus trying to cut a deal.

So to answer your question, yes every single person on earth has a chance to make that choice to serve God. He would not have been able to come to the Lord if He did not draw him, but then we decide to make the choice to serve God, or not to. But God is not willing that any should perish. He came into the world to save the world. Not to condemn it.

Like Yoda says, Choose Wisely.

Firstly, seeking deliverance from demonic oppression, if that was even the reason of falling down before Jesus, is not choosing salvation. Secondly, demons talking to Jesus, "trying to cut a deal," have no bearing on whether or not we're free to choose salvation.

In short, there is nothing in that story that suggests we are free to choose salvation.

 

[Free]

But I'm not a Calvinist. So I'll stick with the premise that our God is a Loving, Merciful, and Just God.

Do not misrepresent what Calvinists believe. They very much believe that God is loving, merciful, and just.

So He Gifted us, Free will so that there is no force. Only Free will.

And, yet, free will is nowhere mentioned in Scripture, and is a point that has thus far been unsupported.

 

[jasonc]

Lord,

It's not at all in the reformed to teach that the person has no will or is a robot once saved ,but rather unless God deals with him and breaks his will to do evil .he will always choose evil and when he does good it's never good enough to redeem him.

No one is made to serve God but God will let sin destroy you and create trails to break you.

If the freewillers truly did think otherwise then prayer for souls Is pointless as God simply won't do that and can be outsmarted .

 

[Free]

Why not?
How do they get to be saved?

It is always a work of God alone. God works upon the heart by his Spirit in order to enable men to "choose."

CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE.
That's a choice left up to you.

But who was that spoken to? Was that not spoken to God's chosen people, those upon whom already had the favor of God?

Does God have free will?

He is the only one with it. An argument could perhaps be made that believers have free will to a degree, because we can choose to follow God or sin.

Is He free to sin or cause us to sin?
In calvinist theology the answer is yes.

The answer is a resounding no. That is certainly not Calvinist theology. God cannot do that which contradicts his nature or character.

Every other denomination believes God cannot sin.

As do all Reformed denominations.

 

[Robert Pate]

In Calvinism, God purposely determines ahead of time who will be a lost sinner, and who will be a saved saint, apart from any consideration of what that person wants or wills in the matter. It says God pays back the sinner for being what He made them to be, but says the saint has no responsibility for being what He made them to be. That's a horrible inconsistency.

God has assumed full responsibility for man's sins. This is why he sent his only begotten Son into the world to atone for the sins of the world. God could have wrapped up the universe in one big ball of fire when Adam sinned, but he didn't, instead he provides a way for man to be saved through simple child like faith in Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is always a work of God alone. God works upon the heart by his Spirit in order to enable men to "choose."

Why is CHOOSE in quotation marks?
You don't believe man has free will?

But who was that spoken to? Was that not spoken to God's chosen people, those upon whom already had the favor of God?

No.
If Joshua is telling ANYONE to choose, it means a choice was possible.
Do you also believe Adam had no free will?

He is the only one with it. An argument could perhaps be made that believers have free will to a degree, because we can choose to follow God or sin.

We have full free will, not to a degree.
I could obey God or not.
This is free will.

The answer is a resounding no. That is certainly not Calvinist theology. God cannot do that which contradicts his nature or character.

The resounding NO is that God cannot sin.
Correct.

Then you state that this is also calvinist theology.
Please explain:
IF God predestinates Everything, including divorce, robbery, murder, adultery, lying, how is it that He is not sinning?
How is it that He is not causing us to sin if it is HE that predestinated it?

Calvinist theology makes God to be a sinner.

You say this would contradict His nature.
Correct.

So:
1. You don't know calvinism.
2. You're on the fence and should make a decision.

As do all Reformed denominations.

Again,
The reformed make God to be a sinner and to cause sin.

This is blasphemy.

 

[Free]

Why is CHOOSE in quotation marks?
You don't believe man has free will?

To choose salvation on his own? No. Even the choosing when God works upon the heart is possibly not our own actual choosing, although from our perspective it feels like it.

No.
If Joshua is telling ANYONE to choose, it means a choice was possible.

Again, he said that to the Israelite, those who already had the favour of God, those who were already God’s chosen people. That alone tells us that this is particular to the Israelites and shouldn’t be extrapolated to people in general.

Do you also believe Adam had no free will?

I lean towards yes, in the same or similar way to believers, who alone caboose whether to obey God or sin.

We have full free will, not to a degree.
I could obey God or not.
This is free will.

Free will within bounds. As Job shows us, not even the devil has absolute free will, other wise he, and is, could thwart God’s plans.

The resounding NO is that God cannot sin.
Correct.

Then you state that this is also calvinist theology.
Please explain:
IF God predestinates Everything, including divorce, robbery, murder, adultery, lying, how is it that He is not sinning?
How is it that He is not causing us to sin if it is HE that predestinated it?

I have never said Calvinists believe that.

Calvinist theology makes God to be a sinner.

You say this would contradict His nature.
Correct.

So:
1. You don't know calvinism.
2. You're on the fence and should make a decision.

No, I don’t know Calvinism as well as I would like. On the fence about what?

Again,

The reformed make God to be a sinner and to cause sin.

This is blasphemy.

It would be if that’s what they believed. It is misrepresenting their beliefs, which suggests you don’t understand it as well as you think you do.

 

[GodsGrace]

To choose salvation on his own? No. Even the choosing when God works upon the heart is possibly not our own actual choosing, although from our perspective it feels like it.

So it is God that chooses us?

Again, he said that to the Israelite, those who already had the favour of God, those who were already God’s chosen people. That alone tells us that this is particular to the Israelites and shouldn’t be extrapolated to people in general.

To choose denotes free will.
Deuteronomy says the same.
The Israelites also were told to give free will offerings. Offerings given of their own free will.

I lean towards yes, in the same or similar way to believers, who alone caboose whether to obey God or sin.

So Adam had free will.
Good.

When did we lose it?

Free will within bounds. As Job shows us, not even the devil has absolute free will, other wise he, and is, could thwart God’s plans.

Satan could dwart God's plans IF he had free will?? You mean satan has more power than God?

And what does free will within bounds mean?
We either have it or we don't.

I have never said Calvinists believe that.

But that's what they believe.
That God even predestinated the movement of the dust in the air.

No, I don’t know Calvinism as well as I would like. On the fence about what?

If you don't know it, maybe it would be better to know what they believe instead of Thinking you know what they believe. It's important.

You're on the fence about reformed theology.
Their teachings are sinking in.

It would be if that’s what they believed. It is misrepresenting their beliefs, which suggests you don’t understand it as well as you think you do.

Well, let's see.

Does John Calvin know about calvinism?
Does the Westminster Confession of faith know about calvinism?

I'll be happy to spend hours going over these two sources with you in the morning.

 

[journeyman]

Re: Romans 1:20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through His workmanship [all His creation, the wonderful things that He has made], so that they [who fail to believe and trust in Him] are without excuse and without defense.

Reformed theology agrees that people are without excuse for not believing in God. See doctrine of Depravity of Man. Therefore, your point is mute.

I'm just going by what I hear reformed and Calvanist believers are saying here.
The point is, Paul is teaching how mankind can know God from "the things that are made" Rom.1:20

Reformed theology agrees that people knew of God and walked away. Therefore, your point is mute.

I'm not Protestant btw, but from what Calvanists have said here, I had the impression Calvanists believe faith in God is irrestistable. That's not true, because in Rom.1, Paul is describing people who fell away from faith.

Aside: Find one point where Calvinism is incorrect would not disprove all of Calvinism.

Read this thread. Look at the reasons why tulip disagrees with much other scripture, but the reasons why calvinism is wrong, are in harmony with all scripture.

I am 100% sure Reformed theology is not perfect.

Reformed theology seems to teach that Jesus bore the wrath his Father has for sin, which to me is the most vile lie purpotrated against the gospel in all of christiandom.

Perhaps you can point us to a better interpretation of scripture, I am all ears. What source do you have that systematizes God's word or is it just your private interpretation that you go to?

I've been pointing people to the correct interpretation of scripture throughout this thread.
I have no Phd to offer you, or denominal theology to point you toward. I'm not impressed with myself. One of Christs' servants showed me the truth. That's all. I'm nobody. Who's your guy, Paul, Apollos, Cephas?

Reformed theology does NOT believe hearts "become" darkened. They believe hearts are born darkened. Psalm 51:5; Psalm 58:3. These verses neither proves or disproves anything except your statement is incorrect. Perhaps a simple issue of verb tense.

In Psa51, David says his mom conceived him in sin, which can easily be understood as meaning, David was born in a sinful world. That by itself cannot automatically make anyone incapable of repentance, because Davids' point is,
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broke nand a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Psa.51:17

Agreed, Paul isn't saying people are incapable of realizing their need for God in Romans 1:20. Now, there are plenty (70+) verses where Paul says people are incapable of seeking God ... Roman 3:11 There is no one who understands, my no one who seeks [they are incapable] God.

In Rom.3, Do you have the ability to see that Paul is speaking in a general sense about Jews and gentiles (are we (Jews) better than they (the gentiles.) He doesn't mean "no person on earth."

Rom.1:13-16 doesn't describle any baby on earth.

 

[Iconoclast]

free will offerings were those not commanded by the law, they were voluntary, it had nothing to do with the false philosophy of free will.
Continuing to say God predestines everything is ignorant. You find no verse that says that.

 

[Iconoclast]

In Calvinism, God purposely determines ahead of time who will be a lost sinner, and who will be a saved saint, apart from any consideration of what that person wants or wills in the matter. It says God pays back the sinner for being what He made them to be, but says the saint has no responsibility for being what He made them to be. That's a horrible inconsistency.

Maybe you could document your claim. Quote a biblical Calvinist saying this if possible?

 

[Iconoclast]

.

 

[GodsGrace]

FF has been seen denying the trinity, so slow down on calling Him a Calvinist.

Haven't noticed...
But I can take your word.
Hope you saw my line by line reply...
Good night.

 

[Iconoclast]

Haven't noticed...
But I can take your word.
Hope you saw my line by line reply...
Good night.

no..it was not him, I deleted that post,,,a different person with a similar name denied the trinity.

 

[GodsGrace]

no..it was not him, I deleted that post,,,a different person with a similar name denied the trinity.

No problem. I didn't think so. I know FF.
I know who you mean too, new member.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Continuing to say God predestines everything is ignorant. You find no verse that says that.

Eph 1:11

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe you could document your claim. Quote a biblical Calvinist saying this if possible?

Oh.
Do I have some support for you!!!
But in the morning.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Aside: I do not deny the trinity.
Got to wonder where that was sourced.

 

[GodsGrace]

Eph 1:11

Ya gotta love an honest calvinist!


Your paesani on here don't know WHAT they believe!

Makes conversation really difficult...