In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

[GodsGrace]

Aside: I do not deny the trinity.
Got to wonder where that was sourced.

The other member made a mistake but fixed it.

No worries FF, we know you by now.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Thx Free for stepping in..I lost patience.

I would argue that Adams will was not free, but that is not a reformed premise.
Premise1,..God created all things including Adams will
Conclusion .. since Adams will was designed by God it did as it was designed

Alternate solution....dualism

 

[Free]

Thx Free for stepping in..I lost patience.

I would argue that Adams will was not free, but that is not a reformed premise.
Premise1,..God created all things including Adams will
Conclusion .. since Adams will was designed by God it did as it was designed

Alternate solution....dualism

That is an interesting thought…

 

[Iconoclast]

Haven't noticed...
But I can take your word.
Hope you saw my line by line reply...
Good night.

I did not see it, where is it?

 

[Iconoclast]

Aside: I do not deny the trinity.
Got to wonder where that was sourced.

Sorry, I confused your user name, with another, I deleted it as soon as I realized my error. Sorry about that.

 

[Iconoclast]

Eph 1:11

Sorry Fredy about mistaking you with the other poster, however that being said=
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

This does not teach that all things are predestined...it is saying those elected have obtained the eternal inheritance, having been predestined to that.
This is not saying God is the author of sin as these enemies of grace would suggest.

 

[Fastfredy0]

That is an interesting thought…

Another thought....

Premise 1: God does not change (immutable), thus His knowledge does not change. Thus it follows that He cannot learn as that would imply He was not all knowing at one time.
Conclusion: God knew Adam would sin and that knowledge could only come from Himself for that is all there was before creation. Every effect has a cause. Adam's sin had a cause. As God was the only only thing existing, he must be the cause of all things, he himself being uncaused as He is eternal and therefore need not a cause.
Aside: I believe a majority of Reformed theologians would say this is a mystery. (compatibilism)

Secondary Conclusion: Don't play poker with God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Another thought....

Premise 1: God does not change (immutable), thus His knowledge does not change. Thus it follows that He cannot learn as that would imply He was not all knowing at one time.

When one knows everything, it is not a limitation. Saying he cannot learn is putting it as a limitation. It is more correct to say he does not need to learn. Knowing or understanding, by the way, is fulfilling, and more fulfilling than learning and so superior to learning.

Conclusion: God knew Adam would sin and that knowledge could only come from Himself for that is all there was before creation. Every effect has a cause. Adam's sin had a cause.

The cause is stated as he obeyed his wife desiring her and she obeyed her desire to be like God. That was the cause.

As God was the only only thing existing, he must be the cause of all things, he himself being uncaused as He is eternal and therefore need not a cause.
Aside: I believe a majority of Reformed theologians would say this is a mystery. (compatibilism)

I agree that a majority of Reformed theologians would agree and say this is a mystery but that is because they do not allow for God's ability to make Adam with a free will. God has to be limited in his abilities in that theology, that is, he cannot have made a man able to make a choice that He himself did not want to be made is my impression.

If one accepts that God can make a man and an angel for that matter, able to freely choose to reject Him and his commands, then the mystery is solved.

Secondary Conclusion: Don't play poker with God.

He isn't interested in Him winning. He is interested in man winning. Just a thought.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Sorry, I confused your user name, with another, I deleted it as soon as I realized my error. Sorry about that.

Not a problem.

Re: Eph. 1:11 ... I don't agree with your limiting God worketh all things after the counsel of his own will to just the elect ... but we will just agree to disagree.

O.K. I will list more verses showing God controls things and to make is more convincing I will list verses in which is controls evil ...

• Joshua 11:20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, that [Israel] might destroy them utterly, and that without favor and mercy, as the Lord commanded Moses. The Canaanites were destroyed by Joshua
• Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem, [which aided him in the killing of his brethren ]
• Judges 14:4 …it was from the LORD; for he was seeking an occasion against the Philistines. At that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel. Samson’s demand to marry an unbelieving Philistine woman
• 1 Samuel 2:25 The sons of Eli, when rebuked for their evil deeds, “But they would not listen to their father, for it was the Lord’s will to put them to death”.
• 1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented and troubled him.
• 2 Samuel 12:11 Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will stir up evil against you from your own household; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and [in broad daylight.]’” When David sinned, the LORD said to him through Nathan the prophet, [Fulfilled in 2 Samuel 16:21, 22.]
• 2 Samuel 16:11 Let him alone and let him curse, for [it could be that] the Lord has told him [to do it]. When Shimei cursed David and threw stones at him and his servants (2 Samuel 15:5-8), David refused to take vengeance on Shimei but said to his soldiers, “the Lord has told him [to do it]”.
• Isaiah 14:24 The Lord of hosts has sworn [an oath], saying, “Just as I have intended, so it has certainly happened, and just as I have planned, so it will stand—
• Joseph’s brother were wrongly jealous of him (Genesis 37:11), hated him (Genesis 37:4, 5, 8), and wanted to kill him (Genesis 37:24) and then sold him into slavery in Egypt (Genesis 37:28). Yet later Joseph could say to his brother, “God sent me before you to preserve life” (Genesis 45:5), and “you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today” (Genesis 50:20). Here we have a combination of evil deeds brought about by sinful men who are rightly held accountable for their sin and the overriding providential control of God whereby God’s own purposes were accomplished. Both are clearly affirmed.God Decreed the Gravest of All Sins
  
  God decreed the death of Christ for his own reason, namely, the redemption of his chosen ones. Likewise, he wills evil for the worthy purpose of his glory. For this same reason, he created some people for salvation and some people for damnation:
  • Acts 2:23 this Man, when handed over [to the Roman authorities] according to the predetermined decision and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross and put to death by the hands of lawless and godless men.
  • Acts 4:27-28 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

I could list another 30 such verses regarding God controlling evil ... or 80 verses showing God controls men like Daniel 5:23b But you have not glorified the God who has in his control your very breath and all your ways!

So, I don't agree with your statement:

Continuing to say God predestines everything is ignorant. You find no verse that says that.

Obviously, there are quit a number of verses

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not a problem.

Re: Eph. 1:11 ... I don't agree with your limiting God worketh all things after the counsel of his own will to just the elect ... but we will just agree to disagree.

O.K. I will list more verses showing God controls things and to make is more convincing I will list verses in which is controls evil ...

• Joshua 11:20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, that [Israel] might destroy them utterly, and that without favor and mercy, as the Lord commanded Moses. The Canaanites were destroyed by Joshua
• Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem, [which aided him in the killing of his brethren ]
• Judges 14:4 …it was from the LORD; for he was seeking an occasion against the Philistines. At that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel. Samson’s demand to marry an unbelieving Philistine woman
• 1 Samuel 2:25 The sons of Eli, when rebuked for their evil deeds, “But they would not listen to their father, for it was the Lord’s will to put them to death”.
• 1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented and troubled him.
• 2 Samuel 12:11 Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will stir up evil against you from your own household; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and [in broad daylight.]’” When David sinned, the LORD said to him through Nathan the prophet, [Fulfilled in 2 Samuel 16:21, 22.]
• 2 Samuel 16:11 Let him alone and let him curse, for [it could be that] the Lord has told him [to do it]. When Shimei cursed David and threw stones at him and his servants (2 Samuel 15:5-8), David refused to take vengeance on Shimei but said to his soldiers, “the Lord has told him [to do it]”.
• Isaiah 14:24 The Lord of hosts has sworn [an oath], saying, “Just as I have intended, so it has certainly happened, and just as I have planned, so it will stand—
• Joseph’s brother were wrongly jealous of him (Genesis 37:11), hated him (Genesis 37:4, 5, 8), and wanted to kill him (Genesis 37:24) and then sold him into slavery in Egypt (Genesis 37:28). Yet later Joseph could say to his brother, “God sent me before you to preserve life” (Genesis 45:5), and “you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today” (Genesis 50:20). Here we have a combination of evil deeds brought about by sinful men who are rightly held accountable for their sin and the overriding providential control of God whereby God’s own purposes were accomplished. Both are clearly affirmed.God Decreed the Gravest of All Sins
  
  God decreed the death of Christ for his own reason, namely, the redemption of his chosen ones. Likewise, he wills evil for the worthy purpose of his glory. For this same reason, he created some people for salvation and some people for damnation:
  • Acts 2:23 this Man, when handed over [to the Roman authorities] according to the predetermined decision and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross and put to death by the hands of lawless and godless men.
  • Acts 4:27-28 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

I could list another 30 such verses regarding God controlling evil ... or 80 verses showing God controls men like Daniel 5:23b But you have not glorified the God who has in his control your very breath and all your ways!

So, I don't agree with your statement:

Obviously, there are quit a number of verses

Does God control what you do and say?

 

[Fastfredy0]

When one knows everything, it is not a limitation. Saying he cannot learn is putting it as a limitation.

Saying God cannot learn is not a limitation if God knows everything. Knowing everything is the cause of not being able to learn (the effect).

The cause is stated as he obeyed his wife desiring her and she obeyed her desire to be like God. That was the cause.

Regarding Adams sin.... your statement is but a secondary cause. I won't bother explaining further.

If one accepts that God can make a man and an angel for that matter, able to freely choose to reject Him and his commands, then the mystery is solved.

Even God cannot make something that He did not design it to do. That is a contradiction. If it were true, then God would not be all knowing as He designed it to do "X" and it surprised Him and did "Y". This would make prophesy impossible as God cannot say what will happen in the future if it depends on something yet to be created doing something He didn't cause.

He isn't interested in Him winning. He is interested in man winning. Just a thought.

I disagree. God purpose is NOT the betterment of man unless it happens to coincide with God's ultimate purpose which is His own Glory.
Colossians 1:15 He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
God cannot will any other thing but himself as his end, because there is nothing superior to himself in goodness. Stephen Charnock

God cannot so properly be said to make the creature his end, as himself. For the creature is not as yet considered as existing. Edwards, Jonathan
As the only good, the implication of all perfections, he seeks and finds himself; he loves himself and seeks his own glory. He made all things for his own name’s sake, even the wicked unto the day of evil. Herman Hoeksema
As there is none more excellent than himself, nothing can be his end but himself (sola Deo Gloria); as he is the cause of all, so he is the end of all; “Of him, and through him, and to him, are all things” (Romans 11:36).

Bedtime for Bonzo

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Saying God cannot learn is not a limitation if God knows everything. Knowing everything is the cause of not being able to learn (the effect).

I think "has no need to learn" is better.

Regarding Adams sin.... your statement is but a secondary cause. I won't bother explaining further.

I do not see it that way but I do not attribute evil to God.

Even God cannot make something that He did not design it to do. That is a contradiction. If it were true, then God would not be all knowing as He designed it to do "X" and it surprised Him and did "Y". This would make prophesy impossible as God cannot say what will happen in the future if it depends on something yet to be created doing something He didn't cause.

He designed it to have free will. There is no contradiction there.

I disagree. God purpose is NOT the betterment of man unless it happens to coincide with God's ultimate purpose which is His own Glory.
Colossians 1:15 He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
God cannot will any other thing but himself as his end, because there is nothing superior to himself in goodness. Stephen Charnock

Where does that verse say God's ultimate purpose is His own Glory? It says "for Him" not "for his glory." They are not the same thing.

Charnock has no basis in scripture or the deeds of God to make that statement. And it really makes no sense. "God cannot will any other thing but himself" makes no sense and it is certainly not glorifying Him. Sound rather egoistic.

God cannot so properly be said to make the creature his end, as himself. For the creature is not as yet considered as existing. Edwards, Jonathan

I guess true at one point in time that is long past.

As the only good, the implication of all perfections, he seeks and finds himself; he loves himself and seeks his own glory. He made all things for his own name’s sake, even the wicked unto the day of evil. Herman Hoeksema

"HE seeks himself" makes no sense. He seeks men to be in fellowship but is not lacking in doing so. "He seeks his own glory" is taken out of context and also egoistic. There would have been many different choices if his own glory was the goal.

As there is none more excellent than himself, nothing can be his end but himself (sola Deo Gloria); as he is the cause of all, so he is the end of all; “Of him, and through him, and to him, are all things” (Romans 11:36).

Being the cause of all does not mean the end of all. There is no logical connection there.

Bedtime for Bonzo

Sleep well!

 

[Iconoclast]

Not a problem.

Re: Eph. 1:11 ... I don't agree with your limiting God worketh all things after the counsel of his own will to just the elect ... but we will just agree to disagree.

O.K. I will list more verses showing God controls things and to make is more convincing I will list verses in which is controls evil ...

• Joshua 11:20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, that [Israel] might destroy them utterly, and that without favor and mercy, as the Lord commanded Moses. The Canaanites were destroyed by Joshua
• Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem, [which aided him in the killing of his brethren ]
• Judges 14:4 …it was from the LORD; for he was seeking an occasion against the Philistines. At that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel. Samson’s demand to marry an unbelieving Philistine woman
• 1 Samuel 2:25 The sons of Eli, when rebuked for their evil deeds, “But they would not listen to their father, for it was the Lord’s will to put them to death”.
• 1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented and troubled him.
• 2 Samuel 12:11 Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will stir up evil against you from your own household; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and [in broad daylight.]’” When David sinned, the LORD said to him through Nathan the prophet, [Fulfilled in 2 Samuel 16:21, 22.]
• 2 Samuel 16:11 Let him alone and let him curse, for [it could be that] the Lord has told him [to do it]. When Shimei cursed David and threw stones at him and his servants (2 Samuel 15:5-8), David refused to take vengeance on Shimei but said to his soldiers, “the Lord has told him [to do it]”.
• Isaiah 14:24 The Lord of hosts has sworn [an oath], saying, “Just as I have intended, so it has certainly happened, and just as I have planned, so it will stand—
• Joseph’s brother were wrongly jealous of him (Genesis 37:11), hated him (Genesis 37:4, 5, 8), and wanted to kill him (Genesis 37:24) and then sold him into slavery in Egypt (Genesis 37:28). Yet later Joseph could say to his brother, “God sent me before you to preserve life” (Genesis 45:5), and “you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today” (Genesis 50:20). Here we have a combination of evil deeds brought about by sinful men who are rightly held accountable for their sin and the overriding providential control of God whereby God’s own purposes were accomplished. Both are clearly affirmed.God Decreed the Gravest of All Sins
  
  God decreed the death of Christ for his own reason, namely, the redemption of his chosen ones. Likewise, he wills evil for the worthy purpose of his glory. For this same reason, he created some people for salvation and some people for damnation:
  • Acts 2:23 this Man, when handed over [to the Roman authorities] according to the predetermined decision and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross and put to death by the hands of lawless and godless men.
  • Acts 4:27-28 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

I could list another 30 such verses regarding God controlling evil ... or 80 verses showing God controls men like Daniel 5:23b But you have not glorified the God who has in his control your very breath and all your ways!

So, I don't agree with your statement:

Obviously, there are quit a number of verses

God is in control of whatsoever comes to pass, that is not in question.
What is in view is the wrong use of the Biblical word predestination.
Each different term has a Biblical usage.
God is never the author of sin.
God does not make anyone sin.

 

[Edward]

Firstly, seeking deliverance from demonic oppression, if that was even the reason of falling down before Jesus, is not choosing salvation. Secondly, demons talking to Jesus, "trying to cut a deal," have no bearing on whether or not we're free to choose salvation.

In short, there is nothing in that story that suggests we are free to choose salvation.

You sure took that and ran with it, huh? The demons didn't run over to Jesus, that was the man. Every one of us has this spark of God inside of us. The God Particle some call it. That particle was activated when the man saw his creator, and he bolted towards Him. God's mercy and grace will allow every human to have this chance. It was the man's choice.

Which angered the demon, but Jesus took over and started addressing the demon directly. And the man's creator with His mercy and grace did not forsake the man to be able to make his own choice and bow before his creator. So the man's creator delivered him from the demoons.

I could go on but you sound to be well seated in your opinions about it so there's no use to go further.

 

[Edward]

Do not misrepresent what Calvinists believe. They very much believe that God is loving, merciful, and just.

Don't twist my words. The Calvinist doctrines put forth in this thread by others very much make it seem as if they hold to the Lord being nonmerciful nonloving and nonjust. So tell them to not speak such untruths!

I do not represent Calviists in any way. I am not a Calvinist. My words were as a representitive of Jesus Christ. I don't speak to Calvinism or for them. Read my post again. I said I hold to: that God is loving, merciful and just. Because he is.

If that shoe fits calvinists, then it does.

 

[Iconoclast]

In Calvinism, God purposely determines ahead of time who will be a lost sinner, and who will be a saved saint, apart from any consideration of what that person wants or wills in the matter. It says God pays back the sinner for being what He made them to be, but says the saint has no responsibility for being what He made them to be. That's a horrible inconsistency.

God did not make sinners.GEN.1:31
God made man upright.Eccl.7:29

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God purposefully chooses under reformed theology. It goes beyond making them able to receive.

And I'm good with that. God purposely chooses/elects those who have responded in faith to the planting and watering of the word that he has done in them. You can probably see how that varies somewhat from the Calvinist's understanding of God purposely choosing people. In Calvinism, he chooses people when he creates them. In what I'm saying he chooses a person when they have faith.

I resist the notion that he purposely created some soil able to respond in faith and some not. I believe the potential to respond to the word in faith is a feature that lies within the person themselves. God's foreknowledge is simply him knowing ahead of time who those are that have that potential, and those who do not, and he deals with them accordingly.

 

[Iconoclast]

And I'm good with that. God purposely chooses/elects those who have responded in faith to the planting and watering of the word that he has done in them.

I resist the notion that he purposely created some soil able to respond in faith and some not. I believe the potential to respond to the word in faith is a feature that lies within the person themselves. God's foreknowledge is simply him knowing ahead of time who those are that have that potential, and those who do not, and he deals with them accordingly.

Wrong view of Biblical Foreknowledge.
Wrong view of the fall of Adam
Wrong view of biblical election

 

[Iconoclast]

. [Every one of us has this spark of God inside of us. The God Particle some call it. That particle was activated when the man saw his creator, and he bolted towards Him. God's mercy and grace will allow every human to have this chance. It was the man's choice.

Hello Edward,
Where is any of this in scripture? When do men see their creator and bolt toward Him?
You suggest every human to have this chance?
if such an idea existed, why do we see this in Romans10:
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

 

[Free]

Every one of us has this spark of God inside of us.

Where is this in Scripture?

Don't twist my words. The Calvinist doctrines put forth in this thread by others very much make it seem as if they hold to the Lord being nonmerciful nonloving and nonjust. So tell them to not speak such untruths!

I didn’t twist your words. You said: “But I'm not a Calvinist. So I'll stick with the premise that our God is a Loving, Merciful, and Just God. So He Gifted us, Free will so that there is no force. Only Free will.” That implies that you think Calvinists believe or teach that God is unloving, unmerciful, and unjust. And that is supported by this quote.

I do not represent Calviists in any way. I am not a Calvinist.

Never said you did, never said you were.