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In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

Fastfredy0 said:
True, the bible and Calvinism and Augustine say God picks who will be saved. (the bible is the infallible source)

Premise 1: God chose use before creation (Eph. 2:12) ....notice you is doing choosing, it's not us
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The Bible is clear that God chooses us, we do not choose him.

What is in contention is the notion that God purposely creates some people to be chosen and believe, ordaining before creation that they will be created with the ability to believe, and creates some people to not be chosen, ordaining before creation that they will not be created with the ability to believe.

In what I'm saying the potential to believe is a quality of the created being themselves. A potential that won't be realized, if it exists in a person, unless purposely brought forth by God planting the seed and watering it and nurturing it in them. The attempt to seed and water 'soil' that doesn't have the potential within it to believe and receive the word will of course fail, and so those people will not be chosen.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Premise 2: From nothing, nothing comes
Conclusions: Since the only source of information for God before creation was himself and He knew who would be saved then God must have determined what He would do and who he would save. Aside: this is the foundation for God being all knowing. IT's not like He can ask "nothing" what will happen in the future and then uses that information for prophecy.
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In what I'm saying he didn't determine who would be saved and who would not. He just knew ahead of time who would respond to his planting and watering and who would not.
 
Free said:
Where is this in Scripture?
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Romans 1:20
20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.../NLT

There is an internal recognition of the invisible qualities of God in people, so that they are without excuse.


Free said:
Do not misrepresent what Calvinists believe. They very much believe that God is loving, merciful, and just.
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Free said:
I didn’t twist your words. You said: “But I'm not a Calvinist. So I'll stick with the premise that our God is a Loving, Merciful, and Just God. So He Gifted us, Free will so that there is no force. Only Free will.” That implies that you think Calvinists believe or teach that God is unloving, unmerciful, and unjust. And that is supported by this quote.
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You said I misrepresented calvinism. That's twisting what I did say. I stated my belief as a Christian and did not speak for calvinism. Not my fault the shoe fits calvinism. ?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
[The Bible is clear that God chooses us, we do not choose him.]
okay
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Jethro Bodine said:
[What is in contention is the notion that God purposely creates some people to be chosen and believe, ordaining before creation that they will be created with the ability to believe]
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No one is created with the ability to believe. This idea is not found in scripture


Jethro Bodine said:
and creates some people to not be chosen, ordaining before creation that they will not be created with the ability to believe.
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No such teaching exists. You post this, no Calvinist teaches this


Jethro Bodine said:
what I'm saying the potential to believe is a quality of the created being themselves. A potential that won't be realized, if it exists in a person,
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No...sin and the fall makes that not possible.

Jethro Bodine said:
unless purposefully brought forth by God planting the seed and watering it and nurturing it in them. The attempt to seed and water 'soil' that doesn't have the potential within it to believe and receive the word will of course fail, and so those people will not be chosen.
no.
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Fastfredy0 said:
Maybe, one has to define "Free Will" first. Then, to support that definition in the context of doctrine... submit bible verses showing we have "free will".
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I agree that we have to understand what 'free will' means in the context of what we're talking about.

Man does not have the free will to decide one day out of the blue that he's going to storm the gates of heaven and be saved apart from God's calling. But he does have the free will to decide to believe and receive the gospel when God graciously gives him the chance to do so. And he will IF he has that potential for loving the truth within himself as a conscious, created, spiritual being (like the angels). I resist the notion that God decides ahead of time that this person will be purposely created with the capacity to love the truth, and this person will not be.
 
Edward said:
Romans 1:20
20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.../NLT

There is an internal recognition of the invisible qualities of God in people, so that they are without excuse.
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So, where is a verse that says there is a divine spark in each one of us?

Edward said:
You said I misrepresented calvinism. That's twisting what I did say. I stated my belief as a Christian and did not speak for calvinism. Not my fault the shoe fits calvinism. ?
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I know you didn’t speak for Calvinism. That has nothing to do with it. You don’t seem to understand what it means to misrepresent another belief. Supported again by your last sentence.

If Calvinism actually stated and taught that God was unloving, unmerciful, and unjust, then you would be correct. But it most certainly states and teaches that God is loving, merciful, and just. So, to say Calvinism states and teaches something contrary to what it actually does, is to misrepresent it.
 
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Fastfredy0 said:
I don't want to keep beating a dead horse. You think people can be saved without Christ because otherwise they would have an excuse and the conflicts with Romans 1 saying people are without excuse, that's up to you.
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They can be saved if they have never heard the testimony of God about Christ. They can be saved by responding in faith to the testimony of God in nature and conscience.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
as I pointed out John 3:18 says Christ is the only way to be saved
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Yes, Christ is the only way to be saved for those who know about the only way to be saved.

As I'm showing you, Paul tells us about people who don't have the knowledge of the promised son and the blessing of obedience contained in the law, yet who are, nonetheless, acquitted at the return of Christ. If you want to reject Paul's explanation for this, then you provide yours, please. Tell us, WHO are these people who show they have the requirements of the law they know nothing about written on their hearts and who will be acquitted at the return of Christ?
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Aside: If one can be saved without Christ maybe you should use that method to evangelize especially if it is more efficient that "faith in Christ".
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Years ago when I used to do a lot of evangelizing in the workplace people would ask me, "what about people who never heard about Jesus." Of course, it seemed obvious to me that they were seeking their own excuse for not getting saved, lol. I would tell them it doesn't matter to them because they have heard. The moment I or anyone else brought the name of Jesus into the conversation Romans 2:13-16 became inapplicable to them. And so for these people, along with virtually everyone else on the globe at this time in history, faith in Christ's blood IS in fact the only way THEY can be saved. They HAVE heard!

And so you can see that Romans 2:13-16 being a potential "method to evangelize", as you call it, is not a method to evangelize at all, but rather the way God reaches and prepares people for the judgement who have never heard the gospel promise of a Son found in the law and expounded upon in the words and writings of Jesus and the Apostles in the New Testament. And for any people who may exist in these modern times who haven't heard about the law and God's promise of a son, God is already at work 'evangelizing' them according to Romans 2:13-16, preparing them for the return of Christ and the kingdom to come. And perhaps he is preparing and raising up missionaries to reach them and fill in the gaps of their understanding and bring them into the fullness of the Spirit and accountability to God.
 
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Iconoclast said:
No...sin and the fall makes that not possible.
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Right, in and of themselves man has no ability to believe and trust in that which he can not see. That doesn't mean that potential does not exist in them to love and embrace righteousness. It means that potential can not be realized until God realizes it. Until then man has no way to realize his own potential, if he has it, to believe in Christ and the gospel.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
I'm talking about the ability, or willingness, to believe when prompted by God. Not the ability to believe in and of themselves.
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Hi Jethro, I can't really be here and am sorry about this.

What you're talking about here (I did read through) is called prevenient grace.
It means that God gives enough grace to everyone in order to make them be aware of His presence and to give them the opportunity to either believe or not believe. Some will remain atheists - it's always man's free will choice.

You will be told constantly that you don't understand calvinism or that you're not explaining it correctly.
This is a mystery to me --- how someone could be of the reformed faith and not understand what it teaches is indeed a mystery.

It's like saying I'm Catholic, and then denying everything Catholicism teaches: Confession, Purgatory.
I could EXPLAIN WHY they believe it (which I've done on here many times) But I cannot DENY it.
 
Iconoclast said:
Of course He determined who would be saved. How could the Father give them to the Son?
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In the same way as two people could enter into a contract where they split 50/50 the profits. The actual number that the profits turn out to be can not be assessed until the job is finished. So He gave them to Jesus, what ever it turns out to be after everything is all said and done.

And of course God knows beforehand who all will choose life but that doesn't mean anything is predetermined, the amount of people who will be saved. It merely means that God is outside of time itself and can see our end on this earth.

You see, God is not willing that any should die...Conclusion: we make the choice.

I can't tear that page out of my Bible.
 
Free said:
That is an interesting thought…
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Yes, Calvinism believes that God purposely made Adam sin because Adam did not have free will, according too the reformed. Some, instead, teach that Adam lost free will at the fall...
In either case, it's taught that man does not have free will.
 
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