Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........Some

[atpollard]

Right.
But I don't see these qualities in God as the reformed characterize Him, or portray Him.
Loving, Merciful, Just.

[LOL]
I am one of the “Reformed” (Particular Baptist means a Baptist that believes God calls PARTICULAR individuals rather than offering a “GENERAL” salvation to whoever chooses to accept it). I just presented MY “Reformed God” as Loving, Merciful and Just as I see Him portrayed in scripture (and my testimony on why I am a Particular Baptist illustrates God as Loving me, Merciful to me and rescuing me from His Justice that I had earned on my own).

 

[atpollard]

Because yielding is costly and unpleasant.

So then why do not ALL MEN resist yielding?
(Romans says they - natural men - do resist … Romans 3:10-12.
John 6:43-45 and Ephesians 2:1-10 claim that God overcomes that resistance by force and grace.)

 

[atpollard]

Why is this important?

It is important if one person is claiming that God has given EVERYONE the same opportunity to be saved … and that statement is not true. Is it unimportant to make false claims about God?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Please explain the innate merits in Jacob over Esau?

Where did I say inmate merits?

Clearly, God CHOSE Jacob and rejected Esau, but what about that shows God’s impartiality?

Chose for what? Rejected for what? Be specific.

 

[atpollard]

Where did I say inmate merits?

Chose for what? Rejected for what? Be specific.

I think you need to define “impartial” for me since we appear to have different definitions.

You claimed that examining God’s choice would reveal God’s impartiality.
I responded by asking where is the impartiality in choosing Jacob and rejecting Esau?

Are you unfamiliar with who Jacob and Esau are?
Here are some verses to help:

• [Gen 25:27-30, 34 KJV] 27 And the boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob [was] a plain man, dwelling in tents. 28 And Isaac loved Esau, because he did eat of [his] venison: but Rebekah loved Jacob. 29 And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he [was] faint: 30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red [pottage]; for I [am] faint: therefore was his name called Edom. ... 34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised [his] birthright.
• [Gen 27:6, 11, 15, 19, 21-22, 30, 41-42 KJV] 6 And Rebekah spake unto Jacob her son, saying, Behold, I heard thy father speak unto Esau thy brother, saying, ... 11 And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother [is] a hairy man, and I [am] a smooth man: ... 15 And Rebekah took goodly raiment of her eldest son Esau, which [were] with her in the house, and put them upon Jacob her younger son: ... 19 And Jacob said unto his father, I [am] Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou badest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me. ... 21 And Isaac said unto Jacob, Come near, I pray thee, that I may feel thee, my son, whether thou [be] my very son Esau or not. 22 And Jacob went near unto Isaac his father; and he felt him, and said, The voice [is] Jacob's voice, but the hands [are] the hands of Esau. ... 30 And it came to pass, as soon as Isaac had made an end of blessing Jacob, and Jacob was yet scarce gone out from the presence of Isaac his father, that Esau his brother came in from his hunting. ... 41 And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob. 42 And these words of Esau her elder son were told to Rebekah: and she sent and called Jacob her younger son, and said unto him, Behold, thy brother Esau, as touching thee, doth comfort himself, [purposing] to kill thee.
• [Gen 28:6 KJV] 6 When Esau saw that Isaac had blessed Jacob, and sent him away to Padanaram, to take him a wife from thence; and that as he blessed him he gave him a charge, saying, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan;
• [Gen 32:3-4, 6 KJV] 3 And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother unto the land of Seir, the country of Edom. 4 And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now: ... 6 And the messengers returned to Jacob, saying, We came to thy brother Esau, and also he cometh to meet thee, and four hundred men with him.
• [Gen 33:1 KJV] 1 And Jacob lifted up his eyes, and looked, and, behold, Esau came, and with him four hundred men. And he divided the children unto Leah, and unto Rachel, and unto the two handmaids.
• [Gen 35:1, 29 KJV] 1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother. ... 29 And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, [being] old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.
• [Gen 36:6 KJV] 6 And Esau took his wives, and his sons, and his daughters, and all the persons of his house, and his cattle, and all his beasts, and all his substance, which he had got in the land of Canaan; and went into the country from the face of his brother Jacob.
• [Jos 24:4 KJV] 4 And I gave unto Isaac Jacob and Esau: and I gave unto Esau mount Seir, to possess it; but Jacob and his children went down into Egypt.
• [Oba 1:18 KJV] 18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be [any] remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken [it].
• [Mal 1:2 KJV] 2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? [Was] not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
• [Rom 9:13 KJV] 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
• [Heb 11:20 KJV] 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So then why do not ALL MEN resist yielding?

Same reason not all men seethe value in working hard and making a living for a family.

(Romans says they - natural men - do resist … Romans 3:10-12.

None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;

Does this describe people in your neighborhood? They are swift to shed blood? They constantly curse and use foul language? Even the 5 year olds? If not, why not?

Answer: Because your theology does not match real life. The Bible does. What you think doesn’t.

John 6:43-45 and Ephesians 2:1-10 claim that God overcomes that resistance by force and grace.)

Where do those verses Godforces us to seek Him, etc? The word FORCE as against the will needs to be there.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Where? I want the Scripture where Jesus said, "God does not give any man a choice whether to believe or not." You demand he said he did so I demand you show where he said this.

Ironic ... you 'demanding' scripture seeing as I ask you and you don't do it. Anyways, I could give 500ish verses. Some are less explicit than others. Some would require a little logic. Anyways, I will give you what I think is the best one as it addresses being born again in relation to the will of God and the will of man.

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God [thus we know the subject matter is "saving faith" as all people that are children of God have saving faith], that is, to those who believe in [again repeated this is about being born again] (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born [saving faith... not doubt this is the subject], not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man, but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”
Clearly this verse defines faith as a work. Thus faith must originate from God since God’s grace does not include man works (Galatians 5:2).

I'm not going to waste too much time listing verse after verse. I swear, if a 'free person' thought 1+1=3 and I found a verse saying 1+1=2 then they would not change their mind.

They he said whosoever will clearly saying that anyone who wants to.

Your theology has blinded you. Open your mind to other possibilities. That what scientists do, verify and reexamine.
I admit that your statement is true; it fits both our view points. The crux of our debate is WHY DOES ONE BELIEVE, WHO CHANGES YOUR DESIRE. So your mind changes the verse (again, why don't you give references) as follows:
Whosoever will [of their own free will] may come.
I have an open mind. I read the verse as:
Whosoever will may come. [hmm, what causes them to come. Doesn't say. I will have to search scripture elsewhere to see if there is an answer]

I'll be somewhat condescending. I will give you the 4 strongest verses to defend your free will belief in regard to salvation. John 3:16, John 6:51, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:4,6 ... there you go ... at least these verses lean your way.

Re: Love's definition

Jesus did not say this or think. Or can you prove a Scripture that supports this opinion?

Yes, I believe I can. Can I just say my answer was from scripture; you just don't see it. That's what you do? *soft giggle* ... couldn't resist

that does not mean all the fruits of the Spirit, including love, are credited to him. That is your position, right?

Well, one must define the "fruits of the Spirit". I just looked at my list and I believe "all the fruits of the Spirit" are given to us. One caveat: the quantity of each fruit will vary from person to person. (Aside: I don't want to conflate this with God's love which I was talking about) ...again, need definitions

 

[Fastfredy0]

You know, I started a whole thread on free will in my view so you really have no excuse when you hide behind “me not defining free will.”

Read my thread if you want to know how I define free will. I’m not constantly changing it.

You defined it once and I thought I understood you. Then you made statements that confused me.
Just simply state your definition and see if it stands up to scrutiny.

It's easy for me.
Free Will is the ability to choose what you desire most at the time.
Aside: Re: Scrutiny: I don't think anyone can find an exception to it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Ironic ... you 'demanding' scripture seeing as I ask you and you don't do it. Anyways, I could give 500ish verses. Some are less explicit than others. Some would require a little logic. Anyways, I will give you what I think is the best one as it addresses being born again in relation to the will of God and the will of man.

No you gave me none. You demand God say "I give you free will" so I am right in demanding you give me God saying, "I give you no free will." What you give is not that.

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God [thus we know the subject matter is "saving faith" as all people that are children of God have saving faith], that is, to those who believe in [again repeated this is about being born again] (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born [saving faith... not doubt this is the subject], not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man, but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

They had to receive him and welcome him FIRST of their own free will.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”
Clearly this verse defines faith as a work. Thus faith must originate from God since God’s grace does not include man works (Galatians 5:2).

That God works does not mean man has NO WORK WHATSOEVER.

I'm not going to waste too much time listing verse after verse. I swear, if a 'free person' thought 1+1=3 and I found a verse saying 1+1=2 then they would not change their mind.

When God says "choose" or "do not" or "thou shalt" you think it means God makes them do or don't do those things by manipulating their emotions or whatever and since that has failed miserably in human history, your theory is wrong.

Your theology has blinded you. Open your mind to other possibilities. That what scientists do, verify and reexamine.

I have. You have blinded yourself. But I know it is only temporary.

I admit that your statement is true; it fits both our view points. The crux of our debate is WHY DOES ONE BELIEVE, WHO CHANGES YOUR DESIRE.

You change your desire. The whole world holds you responsible for you believing what you do and changing your desire. Everyone. No one, not any reformed theologian responds to wrong done to them by being mad at God who made the other person do them an evil. Not one. Tell us that The mind if the caption of the ship and we will reap what the mind chooses to do. (Do you recognize the scripture in that paragraph?)

So your mind changes the verse (again, why don't you give references) as follows:

God made me do it.

Whosoever will [of their own free will] may come.
I have an open mind. I read the verse as:
Whosoever will may come. [hmm, what causes them to come. Doesn't say. I will have to search scripture elsewhere to see if there is an answer]

I'll be somewhat condescending. I will give you the 4 strongest verses to defend your free will belief in regard to salvation. John 3:16, John 6:51, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:4,6 ... there you go ... at least these verses lean your way.

Re: Love's definition

Yes, I believe I can. Can I just say my answer was from scripture; you just don't see it. That's what you do? *soft giggle* ... couldn't resist

You should have resisted and I hold you responsible for accusing me of not seeing. However, you should tell me and the world that it was God who made me write what I did and your giggling is at Him, not me. I am not the captain of my ship according to you, He is. So you ought to be respectful as you are exchanging posts, every single one here with every single poster, with people whom God is moving to write what they write. That is your theology.

Well, one must define the "fruits of the Spirit". I just looked at my list and I believe "all the fruits of the Spirit" are given to us. One caveat: the quantity of each fruit will vary from person to person. (Aside: I don't want to conflate this with God's love which I was talking about) ...again, need definitions

When Jesus said to just a tree by its fruits (heads up that was a scripture), did he think that the fruits are given and so there is no point in judging because you are really judging the God who gives? If God gives the fruits of the Spirit instead of us generating fruit by many choices under his help, that it is God's fault when Christians are not loving or generous or patient etc. Is that how you respond to those who are impatient, unkind, unloving, jealous, etc? You blame God for not giving them these fruits? Your theology says you ought to do so. Do you?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You defined it once and I thought I understood you. Then you made statements that confused me.
Just simply state your definition and see if it stands up to scrutiny.

It's easy for me.
Free Will is the ability to choose what you desire most at the time.
Aside: Re: Scrutiny: I don't think anyone can find an exception to it.

Read my thread. That is more detail and I never changed it. Your definition is not true. That is not free will. It is actually a hedonistic view which I can believe Augustine thought up coming from an extremely hedonistic background that he struggled with. It is not how God sees the matter. There are lots of exceptions. A mother rises to feed her baby although she greatly desires to sleep being dog tired. Her desire is to sleep. She does what she does not desire most. Only hedonists do what they desire most of the time. Honorable men and women have higher motives.

 

[Fastfredy0]

No one can describe free will to the other member. Quit trying!!!

Agreed, one of many defects of "free willyism" is the inability to define it such that it holds up to scrutiny. (something like the emperor has no clothes analogy.)

Going back to you contention that Muslims can be saved by their belief in God ...... I was wondering, are more Muslims saved per capita than Christians? They seem more devote. If Islam causes people to be saved per capita, seems logical that Christians might consider converting.

He's just too smart for us.

interesting premise ... *giggle*

 

[Iconoclast]

That's what I got Iconoclast

Hebrews2 and Jn 6 are main passages that reveal a good part of the Covenant of Redemption.
This term is not found written in scripture, but the teaching is there. I had described the elements of both Baseball, and soccer, without writing the name..soccer, baseball.
In the same way believers have learned to do this with these passages. It describes an agreement among the members of the trinity, before time was.
Here is a brief mention of this arrangment written by AW.PINK

"Behold I and the children which God hath given Me." Those whom God hath given to Christ were referred to by Him, again and again, during the days of His public ministry. "All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me" (John 6:37 (NAS)

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
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John 6:37 ). "I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given Me" (John 17:6 (NAS)
6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

John 17:6 , John 17:9 (NAS)
9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;


John 17:9 ). They were given to Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4 (NAS)
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
>Ephesians 1:4 ). These "children" are God’s elect, sovereignly singled out by Him, and from the beginning chosen unto salvation (2 Thessalonians 2:13 (NAS)

13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 ). God’s elect having been given to Christ "before the foundation of the world," and therefore from all eternity, throws light upon a title of the Savior’s found in Isaiah 9:6 (NAS)
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 9:6 : "The everlasting Father." This has puzzled many. It need not. Christ is the "everlasting Father" because from everlasting He has had "children!"

Why were these "children" given to Christ. The first answer must be, For His own glory. Christ is the Center of all God’s counsels, and His glory the one object ever held in view. Christ will be eternally glorified by having around Him a family, each member of which is predestined to be "conformed to His image" (Romans 8:29 (NAS)

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Romans 8:29 ). The second answer is, That He might save them: "All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me, and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37 (NAS)
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
John 6:37 ).

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2.
"Behold I and the children which God hath given Me." We doubt not that the ultimate reference of these words looks forward to the time anticipated by that wonderful doxology found at the close of Jude’s Epistle: "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever." When the Lord Jesus shall, in a soon-coming Day, gather the company of the redeemed unto Himself and "present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing" (Ephesians 5:27 (NAS)

27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
Ephesians 5:27 ) then shall He triumphantly exclaim, "Behold I and the children which God hath given Me." In the meantime let us seek to take unto our hearts something of the blessedness of these words that, even now, the "joy of the Lord" may be our strength (Nehemiah 8:10 (NAS)
10 Then he said to them, "Go, eat of the fat, drink of the sweet, and send portions to him who has nothing prepared; for this day is holy to our Lord. Do not be grieved, for the joy of the Lord is your strength."
>Nehemiah 8:10 ).

"Behold I and the children which God hath given Me." Let us endeavor to point out one or two plain implications. First, how dear, how precious, must God’s elect be unto Christ! They are the Father’s own "gift" unto Him. The value of a gift lies not in its intrinsic worth, but in the esteem and affection in which the giver is held. It is in this light, first of all, that Christ ever views His people as the expression of the Father’s own love for Himself. Second, how certain it is that Christ will continue to care for and minister unto His people! He cannot be indifferent to the welfare of one of those whom the Father has given to Him. As John 13:1 (NAS)

1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He would depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.
John 13:1 declares, "having loved His own which were in the world, He loved them unto the end." Third, how secure they must be! None of His can possibly perish. Beautifully is this brought out in John 18:8 (NAS)
8 Jesus answered, "I told you that I am He; so if you seek Me, let these go their way,"
John 18:8 , John 18:9 (NAS)
9 to fulfill the word which He spoke, "Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one."

John 18:9 , where, to those who had come to arrest Him, Christ said, "If therefore ye seek Me, let these go their way: that the saying might be fulfilled, which He spake, Of them which Thou gavest Me have I lost none."



Inexpressibly blessed is that which has been before us in Hebrews 2:12 (NAS)

12 saying, "I will proclaim Your name to My brethren , In the midst of the congregation I will sing Your praise ."
Hebrews 2:12 , Hebrews 2:13 (NAS)
13 And again, "I will put My trust in Him ." And again, " Behold , I and the children whom God has given Me ."
>Hebrews 2:13 . The Lord’s people are there looked at in a threefold way. First, Christ owns them as His "brethren." O the wonder of it! The ambitious worldling aspires to fleshly honors and titles, but what has he which can, for a moment, be compared with the honored title which Christ confers upon His redeemed? Next time you are slandered by men, called some name which hurts you, remember, fellow-Christian, that Christ calls you one of His "brethren." Second, the entire company of the redeemed are here denominated "the church," and Christ is seen in the midst singing praise. There, they are viewed corporately, as a company of worshippers, and He who is "a Priest forever" leads their songs of joy and adoration. Third, the Lord Jesus owns us as His "children," children which have been given to Him by God. This speaks both of their nearness and dearness to Himself. Surely the contemplation of these wondrous riches of grace must impel us to cry,



"To Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen" (Revelation 1:6 (NAS)

6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father&;to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
>Revelation 1:6 ).

 

[Iconoclast]

pt3.
(Hebrews 2:14-16 (NAS)

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
Hebrews 2:14-16 )


The closing verses of Hebrews 2:0 (NAS)

1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, 3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, 4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will. 5 For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking.
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" tooltipenable="true" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-decoration: none; color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: bold; cursor: pointer;">Hebrews 2:0 are so rich and full in their contents and the subjects with which they deal are of such importance that we feel the more disposed to devote extra space for the exposition of them. More and more we are learning for ourselves that a short portion of Scripture prayerfully examined and repeatedly meditated upon, yields more blessing to the heart, more food to the soul, and more help for the walk, than a whole chapter read more or less cursorily. It is not without reason that the Lord Jesus said in the parable of the Sower, "that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the Word, keep, and bring forth fruit with patience" (Luke 8:15 (NAS)
15 But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.
Luke 8:15 ). The only way in which the Word is "kept" or held fast is through prolonged meditation and patient or persevering study.



The verses which are to be before us on this occasion form part of the apostle’s inspired explanation of "the Son’s" becoming Man and suffering the awful death of the cross. If the reader will turn back to the third paragraph of the preceding article he will there find five reasons (substantiated in verses 9, 10), as to why Christ endured such humiliation. In verses 11-13 four more are advanced. It was necessary for the second Person of the holy Trinity to be made lower than the angels if He were to have ground and cause for calling us "brethren" (verses 11, 12), for that is a title which presupposes a common ground and standing. Then, it was necessary for the Lord of glory to become "all of one" with His people if, in the midst of the church, He should "sing praise" unto God (verse 12); and this, the Old Testament scriptures affirmed, He would do. Again, it was necessary for Him who was in the form of God to take upon Him "the form of a servant" if He was to set before His people a perfect example of the life of faith; and in Isaiah 8:17 (NAS)

17 And I will wait for the Lord who is hiding His face from the house of Jacob; I will even look eagerly for Him.
>Isaiah 8:17 , He is heard saying, by the Spirit of prophecy, "I will put My trust in Him" (verse 13). Finally, His exclamation "Behold I and the children which God hath given Me" (verse 13), required that He should become Man and thus rank Himself alongside of His saints.


In verses 14-16 we have one of the profoundest statements in all Holy Writ which treats of the Divine incarnation. For this reason, if for no other, we must proceed slowly in our examination of it. Here too the Holy Spirit continues to advance further reasons as to why it was imperative that the Lord of angels should, for a season, stoop beneath them. Three additional ones are here given, and they may be stated thus: first, that He might render null and void him who had the power of death, that is, the Devil (verse 14); second, that He might deliver His people from the bondage of that fear which death had occasioned (verse 15); third, Abraham’s children could only be delivered by Him laying hold of Abraham’s seed (verse 16).

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil" (verse 14). "The connection between this verse and the preceding context may be stated thus: Since it became Him for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through suffering; and since, according to Old Testament prophecies, the Sanctifier and the sanctified, the Savior and the saved, must be of the same race; and since the saved are human beings, the Son of God, the appointed Savior, assumed a nature capable of suffering and death even the nature of man, when He came to save, that in that nature He might die, and by dying accomplish the great purpose of His appointment, the destruction of the power of Satan, and the deliverance of His chosen people" (Dr. J. Brown).

 

[atpollard]

Same reason not all men seethe value in working hard and making a living for a family.

An evasive non-answer.

caio

 

[atpollard]

Where do those verses Godforces us to seek Him, etc? The word FORCE as against the will needs to be there.

ἑλκύσῃ

συνεζωοποίησεν

 

[Dorothy Mae]

An evasive non-answer.

caio

It is the answer in real life. Why do people behave as they do? They CHOOSE different values. There is such a thing a laziness. There is such a thing as honor. There is such a thing as hard working. People choose these to value or not.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

ἑλκύσῃ

συνεζωοποίησεν

Foreign languages not allowed and those words are not verses.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Agreed, one of many defects of "free willyism" is the inability to define it such that it holds up to scrutiny. (something like the emperor has no clothes analogy.)

What? You make choices every day for which those around you praise you or disapprove of. You LIVE with the knowledge that you have free will and so do those you Iive with and hold them equally responsible. I mean, how blind can a person be. And a note, I would rather live alone than with life a man who only and always does what he desires. That is one egoistic and sensual human being whose lusts control their behavior. That is your definition. Which brings to mind a scripture...."God gave them over to their desires" whereby I guess they really did choose whatever they desired living out your definition of free will. God does not seem to think well of this definition or choice.

Going back to you contention that Muslims can be saved by their belief in God ...... I was wondering, are more Muslims saved per capita than Christians? They seem more devote. If Islam causes people to be saved per capita, seems logical that Christians might consider converting.

No the largest and fastest growing faith is Christianity far and away. The Muslims in western nations by and large are not very devoted. If they were, western nations would have a LOT more trouble. The more a Christian is like Christ, the better the society. The more a Muslim is like Mohammed, the worse the society.

 

[Fastfredy0]

miamited

What that says is that it is the 'will' of God that allows that a man can be born again. It is not the will of their mother or father or friends, but God's will that that any of us 'can' be born again. Just as it is God's will that all men come to the knowledge of God and His salvation. But that obviously doesn't mean that all men will be saved, does it? Just because one entity has a will to do something, or that others do something, doesn't mean that they make the other party do anything. It isn't a kind of, I'm going to force you in this.

Re: John 1:12-13 Interesting answer. That is a possibility I suppose. You didn't address the other part of the verses saying man is not saved by the will of man. How does that fit in your 'free will' theology that says it up to man's will to decide regarding salvation.
I must give you kudos for directly answering questions. Very rare. You're a slippery one to catch. *giggle*

However, God also took care of your complaint. You see, those same Scriptures, although now as new covenant writings, tell us that Jesus went down to the grave and preached His message of salvation unto them also. So, you're wrong on that front also.

Wow .... I think you are going way out on a limb with that explanation. Again, kudos for directly answering questions.
Hmmm, I wonder if someone that hears the gospel incorrectly preached will have a second chance such that Christ comes to them and explains things rightly and they accept Him. I don't think so, but gets my vote as does universalism. ... not a democracy, but that's my vote.
I am impressed by you. I don't agree with your conclusions but it is obvious that you have put a lot of thought into these matters IMO.

So, you believe that because we attach ourselves to some worldly defined denomination in order to participate in corporate worship, that we then have to agree and believe with everything we are told in that group...even though we know that they have errors? Hmmmm.

No, I don't believe one has to except as truth all teachings of a particular denominations. There are millions of possibilities so complete agreement is impossible ....unless all parties agree to infallible authority to decide differences; I suppose an example would be the pope in theory. On the other hand, two cannot walk together unless they are agreed so a degree of agreement is necessary. (Aside: I don't agree with 100% of reform theology)

I believe that Jesus is a part of the Godhead.

Phew. Finally agreement. That would have been a DEAL BREAKER.... LOL

So yes, that understanding that I believe comes straight from the Scriptures, does cause issues when the subject comes up and I say, "Well, I'm not completely sold on that understanding.

Agreed .. trinity and hypostatic union can have facets that are difficult/impossible? to understand

Well, then I guess you'll have to figure out 'how' you want to define it. Put it out here for all of us to know 'how' you define it and the rest of us can try to work around your definition. I'm not sure that your inability to define free will is a problem for me.

Oh, I can define FREE WILL ... the ability to choose according to your greatest desire (at the time). Where our desires are determined by God.
But, to understand your position you would have to state your definition. I can't impose my definition upon you.

But Jesus said that he spoke in parables to the people. Seems to me he expected us to look into them and understand what they mean.

Empirical evidence shows we don't understand. Jesus himself said something like the reason He gave them was to hinder their understanding ... at any rate, parables/analogies are more susceptible to abuse than plain statements.
Oh, lol .. I see you gave the verse I was alluding to ... *smile*

Fred