Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........Some

[GodsGrace]

Doesn't that just "kick the ball down the field"?
So then: Why does one yield to the Holy Spirit and another resist the power of God?

Because there's no such thing as IRRISISTABLE GRACE.
That's something John Calvin invented.

Must go now.

 

[atpollard]

Impartial means you treat everyone the same way.
This is what makes an action be just or not.

God is just if He treats everyone the same and gives to all the same opportunity to be saved.
God is not just if He picks out some persons to be saved and not others.

Like the Israelites and the Caananites?

 

[atpollard]

Could you explain how God is JUST in sending some to heaven and some to hell FOR NO REASON THAT WE CAN KNOW and without giving everyone the same opportunity?

Why is it for YOU (or me) to know God's reasons?
Who is standing in judgement of whom?
Does everyone have the same opportunity? I think not, and keep giving examples from History and the Modern World where two people have unequal opportunity to even HEAR the Gospel.

 

[GodsGrace]

1. Tell someone living in North America in 1400 about Jesus. Was his opportunity the same as the person living in Paris near Notre Dame Cathedral in 1400?
2. There are Muslims living in the mountains of Western China as an oppressed people group ... Is their opportunity to hear and believe the same as someone living in North America today?

No ... "equal opportunity" is a myth.

Didn't you read Romans?
What does Romans 1:19-20 mean to you??

1. A person living in 1400 in No. America could look up at the sky and know that there must be a being bigger than himself. He could come to believe in God just from the creation. He could come to worship God.
(and, just like right now, another person would not).

A person living near Notre Dame in Paris in 1400 has the same opportunity.
It would be maybe by hearing...or maybe not. It might still be creation that convinces them...
it's always the Holy Spirit working.

2. Muslims. Right. Well, if a person is a Muslim and he loves God and worships Him, he is most probably saved.
You see A, there's only One God. If a person is worshipping the correct God (not Buddha). then he is also worshipping Jesus because Jesus is God. God is our savior.
Isaiah 12:2
2“Behold, God is my salvation,
I will trust and not be afraid;
For the LORD GOD is my strength and song,
And He has become my salvation.”

Don't you believe in a sovereign God?
God is sovereign and powerful.
He could do what He wishes.
For God everything is possible.

 

[GodsGrace]

Like the Israelites and the Caananites?

I went over this with another member just this week.
I though YOU were the one big on God's sovereignty!

God called a people to Himself.
He followed those people everywhere.
When coming back from Egypt He wanted them to have a nation of their own.
Remember Abraham? A promise is a promise.

I guess they needed a place to live.
At lease we know WHY God killed them all.
I think He always lets us know what He wants (when it concerns us directly - we do not know EVERYTHING about God).
He ended the world in Noah's days.
He chased Adam and Eve out of the Garden.
Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed.
First borns were killed.

God could do as He so wishes.
But in the case of SALVATION, He DID let us know HOW to become saved.
He does give to everyone the same chance.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why is it for YOU (or me) to know God's reasons?
Who is standing in judgement of whom?
Does everyone have the same opportunity? I think not, and keep giving examples from History and the Modern World where two people have unequal opportunity to even HEAR the Gospel.

OK.
But if we want to say that God is LOVING, MERCIFUL, JUST
then we have to see these qualities in Him.
It's as easy as that for me.

Good night.

 

[atpollard]

This can be the only reason you can accept reformed theology.

Since you asked ...

​

My reasons for believing in monergistic justification (God saves without any help or permission from us) is purely empirical. I was an atheist, a drug smuggler, an arsonist and a member of a gang. Nihilism was the closest discription to my belief system (there is no absolute meaning or absolute moral code: killing a baby and eating a sandwich are both just actions - neither good nor evil). Then I met God (not unlike Saul on the Road to Damascus) and God "made me an offer that I couldn't refuse". Simply put, God laid claim to me at a time when I had no interest in Him.​

​

Meeting the God that one is convinced does not exist is a transformative experience. I came to accept four points of TULIP from scripture and experience long before I learned that they had a name:​

• People are no darn good (T)
• God chooses whom He chooses "just because", we don't deserve it (U)
• God does not "try", God "DOES" (I)
• God finishes what God starts (P)

... so, ultimately, I cannot reject "Particular Baptist" theology without first denying the reality of the experience of my own salvation. The good news is that "there is a God and I am not Him" ... so I must believe what I believe, but y'all are free to follow your own consciences [it is the Holy Spirit that will change any hearts/minds that need changing ... not me].

(That's a Baptist Distinctive: "Individual Soul Liberty")

 

[atpollard]

OK.
But if we want to say that God is LOVING, MERCIFUL, JUST
then we have to see these qualities in Him.
It's as easy as that for me.

Good night.

Good Night.

God is LOVING: John 3:14-21 (He came Himself and made a way)
God is MERCIFUL: Romans 3:10-12; Ephesians 2:1-10 (He saves those that do not deserve it)
God is JUST: Revelation 20:11-15 (He punishes the guilty)

 

[Iconoclast]

Hi Iconoclast

Hello Ted,
This might be the first time we have interacted. I believe we are to search out this very thing with a view to follow scripture. I see that we might start out not on the same page Let's take a look and see what concerns you have, and can we agree on more than we do not agree on.

Thanks for that bit. In that case, I'm one of those not in agreement.

I have posted with many who start out thinking that, so let's look into it

I don't believe that God micro-manages all that goes on, on the earth.

Before I try and address this, can I ask what exactly do you believe God does or does not control? We know God created the universe. So if He does not Micro- manage as you say, what does happen?

I believe that men have free will and God has sent out the gospel of eternal life through His Son to all men that they may believe

Ok many share that belief with you'

. See, I don't think the gospel was sent out to those that God had already saved before sin ever entered into the world.

Ted...election took place before the world was, however all men and women are born children of wrath , even others;

Now, don't misunderstand me in this. Yes!!!!!! God does have work that He has micromanaged from the day He spoke, "Let there be light!" But it isn't absolutely everything that goes on, on the earth.

You see, if I'm understanding your position, that makes God unfair to me. He just picks and chooses who will be saved 50,000 years ago and all this living for the rest of us is just for naught, eh. Sounds like a pretty cruel taskmaster to me.

God commands people repent and believe the gospel. That is not being a cruel taskmaster.

But, if God, as I believe, wants all men to be saved, which is what His word says, then He hasn't chosen some...He's chosen all.

No not taught in scripture.

But the caveat is that they have to come to Him on His terms. They have to hear and understand the gospel and come to God through the same Son through which God made everything in this realm of His creating.

The natural man does not receive it.

Jesus really is the answer to everything for everyone.

So you believe that everyone we read about in the Acts of the apostles coming to salvation, was already saved before the world was created. Jesus was just making a good show of it to the rest of us so all the actors could gloat over us. Got it!

God bless,
Ted

 

[Fastfredy0]

Just curious, but I looked up 'what' reformed theology means, because I'm not particularly familiar with the term. However, the definition I found doesn't really line up with yours [wonderings]:

LOL.... it often doesn't. Don't rely on the enemy of Reformed Theology to represent Reformed Theology..... It's like asking a Republican to comment on the Democratic president's "State of the Nation" speech.

Let Reformed Theology tell you what Reform Theology is:
See https://founders.org/library-book/1689-confession/ or https://westminsterstandards.org/westminster-confession-of-faith/ ... one's Baptist and one is Presbyterian ... the Baptist's basically used the older Presbyterian confession and tweaked it slightly.
Also see: https://westminsterstandards.org/westminster-larger-catechism/ longer catechism (questions and answers)
and https://westminsterstandards.org/westminster-shorter-catechism/ Shorter catechism (questions and answers)
They use scripture to authenticate their beliefs. They go into detail

Reformed theology is not a “new” belief system but one that seeks to continue apostolic doctrine.

Agreed. To be candid, many denominations would make the same claim... gee, maybe all of them. Aside: What is truth?

In fact, God's word promises that He will be found by those who seek diligently for Him.

True. Yet God says "no one seeks God" Romans 3:11
God does not contradict Himself....
Now you have to put the puzzle together.

So, you may be correct in what you're saying about reformed theology,

She often spreads falsehoods on this subject. For example: Reform Theology says God is not Just or Merciful. Like, there is NO DENOMINATION, heck NO RELIGION that I am aware of that believe God is not Just.
See Post 268 where this falsehood is denied by atpollard

Go to the source. Let Reform Theology speak for itself. I gave you websites above if you are interested. You will get a distorted viewpoint from her.

 

[miamited]

Hi wondering

big names were accepted as teaching the "new" ideas.

But according to my study of reformed theology, it isn't about 'new' ideas. Reformed theology was about taking the 'new' ideas that were coming out of the RCC and going back to the 'old' ideas of the first apostles. Martin Luther's thesis was condemning all of the 'new' ideas of the RCC. Such as annulment of a marriage, paying a price for blessings, believing that the Pope, the leader of the RCC was God's representative upon the earth.

The reformation was calling believers to go back to the older model of the practice of faith that was established by the first apostles. Martin Luther likely believed as I do. That man's history throughout his days upon the earth has always been: God does some great thing and people believe for a while, but it quickly drops away. This is repeated over and over again in the Scriptures. Martin Luther was trying to stop that natural process of evolving 'church' theology and call believers back to their first love, as Jesus also wrote to one of the first churches.

Faith Alone, Christ Alone, Scripture Alone, Glory to God Only, Grace Alone.

Yes, but none of that doctrine is new. It's actually the doctrine of the first apostles. It wasn't until the RCC got invested in religion that they tried to introduce new ideas such as the Pope and the word of God are equal. Or that the church has authority to make doctrine or theology. See, that's exactly what the Jews had done over the 1500 years that they practiced ungodly worship. Man is just naturally bent to turn away from God and, for Martin Luther, that's exactly what he was accusing the RCC of doing.

The Apostolic Fathers DID NOT believe in either predestination or determinism.

Yes, I agree with that. I believe that Paul fully understood what God's word meant when it spoke of some 'predestination'. Simply that God had predestined in ages past that THOSE WHO WOULD BELIEVE would be saved. It isn't a name calling thing. It's a body of people from every tribe and tongue and nation who have believed the gospel. Those people, as group of believers who have trusted in Jesus, will be saved. That was all predestined back at least as far as when God spoke with Adam and told him and Eve about the one to come, of the seed of the woman. So, I think Paul did believe in predestination, after all it's in the Scriptures, but he knew what God meant in saying that.

The reformed believe man does NOT have free will.

Well, that's how we got here. I believe that such theology as 'specific individual people' have been chosen by God before the beginning is not taught in the Scriptures. I believe that it's just a misunderstanding of what 'predestined' is referring to in the Scriptures. I also believe that man does have free will and that's what the whole earthly fight between God and man is all about. Mankind uses its free will to turn away from God and the result ain't pretty.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Fastfredy0]

If I may be so bold as to add my 2¢ worth. That's the job of the Holy Spirit. We come to believe when we hear the gospel or begin to study about God and God's Spirit opens our eyes and our hearts to the truth. So, I believe that we believe one thing over another, as regards faith in Jesus and his Father, because the Holy Spirit draws us to that belief. Jesus was pretty clear that no one comes to the Father, unless the Spirit draws them.

This is in agreement with reformed theology as read literally.

Now, that's not the same as the Spirit 'making' someone believe. No, I think the Spirit just pricks the heart of the seeker to 'see' the truth contained within the Scriptures. We then make the choice to follow or not.

This is in agreement with reformed theology also.
To add more detail to the Spirit's work (regeneration) is the His work is termed an "Irresistible Call". God changes ones desires causing man to freely believe.
Again, John 1:12-13 says it is by God's will we are born again and it then says explicitly that is not by the will of man you are born again. God is the cause and our faith is the effect, thus no man may boast.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The reformation was calling believers to go back to the older model of the practice of faith that was established by the first apostles.

Agreed. Augustine of 300 A.D. basically taught Reformed Theology. But, the point is: What interpretation of scripture best reflects scripture accurately?

God does some great thing and people believe for a while, but it quickly drops away. This is repeated over and over again in the Scriptures. Martin Luther was trying to stop that natural process of evolving 'church' theology and call believers back to their first love, as Jesus also wrote to one of the first churches.

Agreed. Man always falls away. Gee, getting so majority of Christians believe gay marriage is OK now. Man is a sorry lot.

Simply that God had predestined in ages past that THOSE WHO WOULD BELIEVE would be saved. It isn't a name calling thing.

It is a name calling thing. God said He chose people, not methods.
Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ ... chose people, not methods
Revelation 17:8 ... And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written [not chosen by God] in the book of life from the foundation of the world ... chose people, not methods... figuratively word the names of people in the book of life before they existed. It is not possible to know what nothing will do and before the foundation of the earth there was only God so He could only know those who would be in the book of life if He determined it as there was no other source of information

 

[Fastfredy0]

Muslims. Right. Well, if a person is a Muslim and he loves God and worships Him, he is most probably saved.

WOW.... that contradicts God. You've preaching another gospel. The gospel of inclusionism.

John 14:6 No one comes to the Father except through me".
John 12:48 Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.
Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; A for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among people by which we must be saved [for God has provided the world no alternative for salvation].”

• Romans 10:13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord [in prayer] will be saved.” 14 But how will people call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher (messenger)? 15 And how will they preach unless they are commissioned and sent [for that purpose]? Just as it is written and forever remains written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
• 1 Corinthians 6:22 If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed. Our Lord, come!
• 2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.

LOL at the new method to be saved.
Matthew 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
to be rewritten as
Matthew 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’, and the God of Mohammad.

Got to admit, to be consistent with "Free Willyism" one needs to believe one can be saved by the God of Mohammad as God must ensure everyone has a chance to be saved by their sovereign, self-created Free Will


Premise 1: Muslims do not believe Christ is God
Premise 2: Wondering's premise:

a person is a Muslim and he loves God and worships Him, he is most probably saved.

Conclusion: Muslims can be saved if they worship God even though they don't believe he is God. (Ridiculous ... you can't worship God and not think He is God. God is one. Christ is God)

Aside: Shirk (Arabic: شرك širk) in Islam is the sin of idolatry or polytheism (i.e., the deification or worship of anyone or anything besides Allah). Islam teaches that God does not share his divine attributes with anyone.[3] Associating partners with God is disallowed according to the Islamic doctrine of Tawhid[4] (oneness). Mušrikūn مشركون (pl. of mušrik مشرك) are those who practice shirk, which literally means "association" and refers to accepting other gods and divinities alongside God (as God's "associates").The Qur'an considers shirk as a sin that will not be forgiven if a person dies without repenting of it ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam)

Aside: That's at least three members of the forum staff that teach one can be saved without Christ. Amazing theology.

 

[jasonc]

Didn't you read Romans?
What does Romans 1:19-20 mean to you??

1. A person living in 1400 in No. America could look up at the sky and know that there must be a being bigger than himself. He could come to believe in God just from the creation. He could come to worship God.
(and, just like right now, another person would not).

A person living near Notre Dame in Paris in 1400 has the same opportunity.
It would be maybe by hearing...or maybe not. It might still be creation that convinces them...
it's always the Holy Spirit working.

2. Muslims. Right. Well, if a person is a Muslim and he loves God and worships Him, he is most probably saved.
You see A, there's only One God. If a person is worshipping the correct God (not Buddha). then he is also worshipping Jesus because Jesus is God. God is our savior.
Isaiah 12:2
2“Behold, God is my salvation,
I will trust and not be afraid;
For the LORD GOD is my strength and song,
And He has become my salvation.”

Don't you believe in a sovereign God?
God is sovereign and powerful.
He could do what He wishes.
For God everything is possible.

Here's the problem .you are making God lie

Muslims deny Jesus died And is the son of God .a true Muslim would kill The missionary and think he is Godly.they also teach God doesn't have to save you .he can lie .

Many early religiios are quite barbaric .

A sick child ? Thou art cursed.let the child die and mother who is cursed .Hinduism

 

[Fastfredy0]

More logical absurdities with the doctrine of "free willyism". Consider:

Premise 1: Once saved always save (eternal security, what ever name you want to call it)
Premise 2: Free Will is valid... man independent of God determines his salvation
Conclusion: Once a man is saved God must take away a person's Free Will to preserve that man's salvation. But man can't have Free Will if God takes it away by definition. Thus either premise 1 is false or premise 2 is false.

Premise 1: from the previous syllogism we know that if Free Will is true then eternal security must be false. One can lose their salvation
Premise 2: Free Will is valid... man independent of God determines his salvation
Premise 3: God determines when one dies (unless one commits suicide via free will)
Conclusion: Free Will again cannot be true for God determines when one dies and that timing violates man ability to freely change his mind to believe of not believe in the future

Premise 1: Free Will is valid... man independent of God determines his salvation
Premise 2: Another man can, of his free will, kill a person thus nullifying that person's free will
Conclusion: The Free Will of one person can cancel that of another. Thus, universal Free Will is disproved.

Free Willyism has so many contradictions ... lol ... free will can destroy free will thus free will is imaginary ... A = not A .. ridiculous. Only God has free will and man cannot cancel God's free will.

 

[miamited]

Hi Fastfredy0

But, the point is: What interpretation of scripture best reflects scripture accurately?

Now that's a tough one. There are, as this site is a great example, many, many 'interpretations'. I always think of Pharaoh and his magicians and King Nebi and his brood of 'cohorts'.

It is a name calling thing. God said He chose people, not methods.

No, on that one we're not going to be able to agree if we both hold to what we say we believe.

He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ .

Yes, that's exactly right!! God predestined 'us' all of those new believers that Paul is writing to that if they would believe in His Son, they would be saved. God did absolutely predestine that glorious eventuality.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

God said He chose people, not methods.

Yes! Exactly !!!!! God chose the people who would follow His method to be saved before the foundations of the earth were set in place. God sent His Son into the world that men might be saved. God predestined that all men who would believe in His Son would be saved. So, you're right that it is not a method. It is a belief...a faith, that can start as small as a mustard seed. Then mature into a tree in which even the birds can rest from their toils. That is what God predestined for His Creation.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

This is in agreement with reformed theology as read literally.


This is in agreement with reformed theology also.
To add more detail to the Spirit's work (regeneration) is the His work is termed an "Irresistible Call". God changes ones desires causing man to freely believe.
Again, John 1:12-13 says it is by God's will we are born again and it then says explicitly that is not by the will of man you are born again. God is the cause and our faith is the effect, thus no man may boast.

Hi Fastfredy0

Yeah, that's always been me. Just take a little bit from everyone so that none have too much or none have too little. I mentioned fellowshipping with a Baptist congregation. I run into differences there also. My small group teacher thinks we're all going to live in heaven and the pastor and my Wednesday night teacher believe in a billion, trillion year old creation. Another sticking point with me is the 'Jesus is God' claim. I'm more comfortable with referring to Jesus as both he and his Father do. This is my Son in whom I am well pleased. Ask of the Father and you will be given. Jesus is God's Son and God is Jesus' Father.

So, I find my self often participating with a particular fellowship of the believers, but I'm often testing and checking.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Yet God says "no one seeks God" Romans 3:11
God does not contradict Himself....

Oh, I absolutely agree that God does not contradict Himself. The passage you quote is from the old covenant when God condemned Israel, His precious jewel, through the Psalmist. He was berating and cajoling them. Telling them:

“There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside;..."

Psalm 14:1-3 says: Sin has tainted everything humanity does, and everyone has turned away.

This is not God telling anyone they can't come to Him!! No! This is God begging them to come to Him. Oh friend, please don't think that the passage you quoted means that God says we can't come to Him on our own. God, like the father of the Prodigal son, stands with open arms waiting for you to come to Him. The angels of heaven rejoice, my friend, like they sang on that night over Bethlehem, although I'm sure not quite so grand and glorious, every time a little one returns to Him. The Good Shepherd of the good flock. Oh God does desire that we come to Him in whatever way we can.

But it is the Holy Spirit that pricks our spirit to hear and understand and to plant that small mustard seed of faith. Then as we water and we feed that tender seed as the husk breaks open and tiny first starter leaves come up. We know that it is God that makes it grow. Praise Him!!

God does not contradict Himself.

God bless,
Ted