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Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........Some

Hi folks,

You know what causes me to stand in awe of God and all that He has done for me...for us. I gaze at these new pictures coming to us from the new and phenomenal Webb Telescope. Billions and billions of stars for which God's word tells us that He knows their names. I mean, that's got to be some kind of hyperbole, right? But the God I believe in spread all of that out after He set this one, lonely little planet that He had created for us...and then He did this


May that God, the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, may that God bless each one of you more richly than you deserve.
Ted

Thank you Jesus
 
Listen, if it's really important to you to believe that everything that you see happening every day on the earth is by God's sovereign will, you are free to believe that. What I believe is that for the majority of the world, it's more like how Paul says God has released them to do that which ought not be done.
Not mutually exclusive.

Remember the story of Job. Satan DID all of the evil, but God set the clear boundaries “this far and no further”. Is it so hard to imagine that men are capable of far greater evil, which God restrains according to His plan and His will saying “this far and no further” … even as God lifts His hand of restraint? In such a scenario, HELL might well be the natural condition of fallen men with God throwing off all restraint. Someone smarter than me once said that if God did not restrain it, the sin living within us would burst into flame and consume us all on its own without any effort from God … that is DAMNATION.
 
Not mutually exclusive.

Remember the story of Job. Satan DID all of the evil, but God set the clear boundaries “this far and no further”. Is it so hard to imagine that men are capable of far greater evil, which God restrains according to His plan and His will saying “this far and no further” … even as God lifts His hand of restraint? In such a scenario, HELL might well be the natural condition of fallen men with God throwing off all restraint. Someone smarter than me once said that if God did not restrain it, the sin living within us would burst into flame and consume us all on its own without any effort from God … that is DAMNATION.
The poster was responding to Fastfredy0 who does seem to believe that. Its is clear that you do not. But why do you think that there is someone restraining our sin within us? Where is the evidence for this and why are they doing such a poor job of restraining sin within us? Why let any sin out at all?
 
Someone has to teach or its revealed.

The stars,local nature doesn't teach who God is and what sin is.
“The Heavens declare the glory of God.” Besides which, each of us has a conscience and are born with the ability to know and understand moral right and wrong and that conscience actually judges our actions and words.
 
I think you need to define “impartial” for me since we appear to have different definitions.
I’m pretty sure they’re the same. Maybe you don’t see the impartiality of God in his ways. He has reasons He chooses sone but that is based on fulfilling conditions.
You claimed that examining God’s choice would reveal God’s impartiality.
I responded by asking where is the impartiality in choosing Jacob and rejecting Esau?
Ok, Jacob was chosen to be in the genetic line of the Messiah. That is it. When it comes to children, both men cannot father the same one offspring. But the lives of the men do not show that one was blessed and the other cursed. God could choose one or the other to be the father of the messianic line but not both.
Are you unfamiliar with who Jacob and Esau are?
Here are some verses to help:
  • [Gen 25:27-30, 34 KJV] 27 And the boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob [was] a plain man, dwelling in tents. 28 And Isaac loved Esau, because he did eat of [his] venison: but Rebekah loved Jacob. 29 And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he [was] faint: 30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red [pottage]; for I [am] faint: therefore was his name called Edom. ... 34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised [his] birthright.
What was he birthright he lost? Ever think about that? What could it be? Land? What else? And notice God wasn’t involved in these matters.
  • [Gen 27:6, 11, 15, 19, 21-22, 30, 41-42 KJV] 6 And Rebekah spake unto Jacob her son, saying, Behold, I heard thy father speak unto Esau thy brother, saying, ... 11 And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother [is] a hairy man, and I [am] a smooth man: ... 15 And Rebekah took goodly raiment of her eldest son Esau, which [were] with her in the house, and put them upon Jacob her younger son: ... 19 And Jacob said unto his father, I [am] Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou badest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me. ... 21 And Isaac said unto Jacob, Come near, I pray thee, that I may feel thee, my son, whether thou [be] my very son Esau or not. 22 And Jacob went near unto Isaac his father; and he felt him, and said, The voice [is] Jacob's voice, but the hands [are] the hands of Esau. ... 30 And it came to pass, as soon as Isaac had made an end of blessing Jacob, and Jacob was yet scarce gone out from the presence of Isaac his father, that Esau his brother came in from his hunting. ... 41 And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob. 42 And these words of Esau her elder son were told to Rebekah: and she sent and called Jacob her younger son, and said unto him, Behold, thy brother Esau, as touching thee, doth comfort himself, [purposing] to kill thee.
Where was God involved here?
  • [Gen 28:6 KJV] 6 When Esau saw that Isaac had blessed Jacob, and sent him away to Padanaram, to take him a wife from thence; and that as he blessed him he gave him a charge, saying, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan;
  • [Gen 32:3-4, 6 KJV] 3 And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother unto the land of Seir, the country of Edom. 4 And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now: ... 6 And the messengers returned to Jacob, saying, We came to thy brother Esau, and also he cometh to meet thee, and four hundred men with him.
  • [Gen 33:1 KJV] 1 And Jacob lifted up his eyes, and looked, and, behold, Esau came, and with him four hundred men. And he divided the children unto Leah, and unto Rachel, and unto the two handmaids.
  • [Gen 35:1, 29 KJV] 1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother. ... 29 And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, [being] old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.
  • [Gen 36:6 KJV] 6 And Esau took his wives, and his sons, and his daughters, and all the persons of his house, and his cattle, and all his beasts, and all his substance, which he had got in the land of Canaan; and went into the country from the face of his brother Jacob.
  • [Jos 24:4 KJV] 4 And I gave unto Isaac Jacob and Esau: and I gave unto Esau mount Seir, to possess it; but Jacob and his children went down into Egypt.
Ah God so loved Esau that He gave him land.
  • [Oba 1:18 KJV] 18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be [any] remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken [it].
Many many generations after the man had died and his descendants had become evil.
  • [Mal 1:2 KJV] 2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? [Was] not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
The nations, not the man.
  • [Rom 9:13 KJV] 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
The nation, not the man whom God blessed with land and material goods.
  • [Heb 11:20 KJV] 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
What was to come? The messiah. That’s it.
 
Again, the crux of the matter is WHY DO PEOPLE DECIDE TO DO X OR Y?
My side says God is the cause. Your side doesn't define FREE WILL (or defines it so loosely as to not be creditable) yet says this undefined force called FREE WILL causes you to do X or Y.
Your definition of free will is basically selfish hedonism so stop bashing mine which gives man the honor God gave him. People decide based on the evidence among other factors. I admit there are selfish hedonists who just do whatever their own desire or lusts are at the moment all the time, but these are NOT doing God’s will.
I know you don't like quoting scripture... but give an example in Scripture where anyone include God Himself did not do what they desired most that is not anthropomorphic.
Jesus did not desire to go to the cross. You need the reference do you know where this is in scripture?? I can give it if you’re unaware of this one.
Again, you haven't defined FREE WILL as I pointed out earlier, yet it is one of you primary doctrines. DEFINE IT!!! It is a choice, it is FREE, but FREE from what!!!!!
Read my thread. I define it over and over and you cannot see it. I suspect it is because you are following your desire NOT to see.
 
@atpollard said: So then why do not ALL MEN resist yielding?


LOL... that was an evasive reply.
Do you guys never ever look inside yourself and ask why you choose as you do? If I give you the reason because I HAVE considered why people, including myself, choose as I do, how will this enlighten you? If you don’t know WHY you choose as you do, you’ll never understand why people in general do.
Jack: Joe, why did you wear blue shoes.
Joe: Same reason you at pizza last night.
Aside: Maybe I missed something
You’re missing logic.
LOL.... kept reading and found this ... guess two of us came to same conclusion.
Gentlemen, think about why you choose as you do. Do you FEEL manipulated into all your choices, Fred?
 
miamited

I notice patterns from Fastfredy0.

His responses seem to be

1. YOU don’t define free will even if you do

2. YOU don’t use ANY or much scripture (even if you do.)

3. If the Bible doesn’t say “God gave free will” there isn’t any.

He used them on me too do
don’t feel you’re alone.

Now notice he quotes some scripture but ignores others.
 
God makes sinners willing psalm110:3
Greetings,

In Post 148 I asked:

‘Are you saying that the Beloved restores our ability to commune with Him – to become spiritually alive through ‘new birth’ – whether we wish it or not?’

In reply, you reference Psalm 110:3. Here it is (in several versions):

‘When you go to war, your people will serve you willingly. You are arrayed in holy garments, and your strength will be renewed each day like the morning dew.’ (‘New Living Translation’).

‘Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holy garments; from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours.’ (‘English Standard Version’).

‘Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.’ (‘King James Bible’).

‘Your people will volunteer on your day of battle. In holy splendor, from the womb of the dawn, the dew of your youth belongs to you.’ (‘Christian Standard Bible’).

‘Your people will volunteer when you call up your army. Your young people will come to you in holy splendor like dew in the early morning.’ (‘God’s Word Translation’).

‘Your soldiers are willing volunteers on your day of battle; in majestic holiness, from the womb, from the dawn, the dew of your youth belongs to you.’ (‘International Standard Version’).

‘Your people come forward willingly on your day of battle. In majestic holiness, from the womb, from the dawn, yours was the dew of youth.’ (‘The Jewish Study Bible’).

Albert Barnes – a noted American theologian – informs us that the word rendered ‘willing’ (‘nedâbôth’) is:

‘…in the plural number… The singular - נדבה nedâbâh - means voluntariness, spontaneousness: and hence, it comes to mean spontaneously, voluntarily, of a willing mind.

‘It is rendered a “willing offering,” in Exodus 35: 29; “free offering,” in Exodus 36: 3; “voluntary offering,” in Leviticus 7: 16; “free-will offering,” in Leviticus 22: 18, Leviticus 22: 21, Leviticus 22: 23; Leviticus 23: 38; Numbers 15: 3; Numbers 29: 39; Deuteronomy 12: 6, Deuteronomy 12: 17; Deuteronomy 16: 10; Deuteronomy 23: 23; 2 Chronicles 31: 14; Ezra 1: 4; Ezra 3: 5; Ezra 8: 28; Psalm 119: 108; “willingly,” in 2 Chronicles 35: 8; “plentiful,” in Psalm 68: 9; “voluntary, and voluntarily,” in Ezekiel 46: 12; “freely,” in Hosea 14: 4; and “free-offering,” in Amos 4: 5.

‘It does not occur elsewhere. The idea is that of “freeness;” of voluntariness; of doing it from choice, doing it of their own will. They did it in the exercise of freedom. There was no compulsion; no constraint.’ (‘Barnes On The Old Testament: Notes On The Whole Bible’; my emphases).

Charles Spurgeon – who writes: I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the Gospel and nothing else.’ (‘Charles Spurgeon Autobiography (2 Volume Set)’ – renders Psalm 110:3 as:

‘Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.’

He comments:

‘Ver. 3. —Thy people shall be willing. Willing to do what? They shall be willing while others are unwilling. The simple term "willing, "is very expressive. It denotes the beautiful condition of creatures who suffer themselves to be wrought upon, and moved, according to the will of God. They suffer God to work in them to will and to do. They are willing to die unto all sin, they are willing to crucify the old man, or self, in order that the new man, or Christ, may be formed in them. They are willing to be weaned from their own thoughts and purposes, that the thoughts and purposes of God may be fulfilled in them. They are willing to be transferred from nature's steps of human descent to God's steps of human ascent.

God will beautify them with salvation, because there is nothing in them to hinder his working. They will be wise, they will be good, they will be lovely, they will be like God, for they are "willing"; and there proceeds from God a mighty spirit, the whole tendency of which is to make his creatures like himself.’ (‘The Treasury of David IX Psalms 101-110’; my emphases).

In Post 142 you declare that ‘natural man does not wish to be saved.’

How can this be true, when there are those who are ‘willing to be weaned from their own thoughts and purposes, that the thoughts and purposes of God may be fulfilled in them’?

Blessings.
 
Since you asked ...
My reasons for believing in monergistic justification (God saves without any help or permission from us) is purely empirical. I was an atheist, a drug smuggler, an arsonist and a member of a gang. Nihilism was the closest discription to my belief system (there is no absolute meaning or absolute moral code: killing a baby and eating a sandwich are both just actions - neither good nor evil). Then I met God (not unlike Saul on the Road to Damascus) and God "made me an offer that I couldn't refuse". Simply put, God laid claim to me at a time when I had no interest in Him.
Meeting the God that one is convinced does not exist is a transformative experience. I came to accept four points of TULIP from scripture and experience long before I learned that they had a name:
  • People are no darn good (T)
  • God chooses whom He chooses "just because", we don't deserve it (U)
  • God does not "try", God "DOES" (I)
  • God finishes what God starts (P)
... so, ultimately, I cannot reject "Particular Baptist" theology without first denying the reality of the experience of my own salvation. The good news is that "there is a God and I am not Him" ... so I must believe what I believe, but y'all are free to follow your own consciences [it is the Holy Spirit that will change any hearts/minds that need changing ... not me]. :)

(That's a Baptist Distinctive: "Individual Soul Liberty")
OK, but you didn't answer my question.
I find that's it's difficult to speak to reformed persons because they don't answer questions, they just go ahead and post what they want to.

My question was: WHAT IS JUSTICE?

We were discussing murerers being sentenced to death and its being carried through.

As to the rest of your post:

I found God at a time when I was searching for Him...the opposite of your experience.
Can we trust our own private experience, or should we trust God's word?
I'd say yours was more dramatic.

° I agree with people are no darn good. I think every Christian believes this to be true because the bible teaches this.

° I don't understand how you could get that God chooses whom He chooses from scripture, but OK. I see more that the NT teaches us HOW to become saved, how to enter into the Kingdom of God here on earth, right now. Which, BTW, I do believe is the main reason Jesus taught.

What about Limited Atonement? Do you believe Jesus died for everyone or just the elect?



° Agreed. God does not TRY, He does what He wishes to do. I think this should go without saying.

° God finishes what He starts - IF we allow Him. This goes to free will which I accept. God will never force us to do anything we don't want to do.


I agree with individual soul liberty IF I've understood what it means.
Not sure.
 
Hi Fastfredy0

I'm sorry, but I don't read that as you seem to be:
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
What that says is that it is the 'will' of God that allows that a man can be born again. It is not the will of their mother or father or friends, but God's will that that any of us 'can' be born again. Just as it is God's will that all men come to the knowledge of God and His salvation. But that obviously doesn't mean that all men will be saved, does it? Just because one entity has a will to do something, or that others do something, doesn't mean that they make the other party do anything. It isn't a kind of, I'm going to force you in this.


No, God sent His Son into the world for the sins of all mankind. But, God is wiser than you or I will ever be. God had a plan that had to be followed to introduce His Son and his purpose in visiting us. That plan started with His call to Abram of Ur, through who's descendants God had a few faithful people of Israel write down His Scriptures. That had to be done, and those Scriptures had to tell us about 'who' and 'what' Jesus was going to do for us, before Jesus could actually come and die for us. Otherwise, Jesus' death was just a man who died as some liar spouting crap about their God. Just imagine, if the entire life of Jesus had passed, without there being a single word of Scripture ever put down on parchment. There was no Pentateuch or Torah or major or minor prophets. No report and chronology of all the work that God had done previous to His Son's introduction to us.

However, God also took care of your complaint. You see, those same Scriptures, although now as new covenant writings, tell us that Jesus went down to the grave and preached His message of salvation unto them also. So, you're wrong on that front also.


I can't imagine why it would have more conflicts theoretically. Then your very next claim is:

So, you believe that because we attach ourselves to some worldly defined denomination in order to participate in corporate worship, that we then have to agree and believe with everything we are told in that group...even though we know that they have errors? Hmmmm. Ok, but that's not the way I understand what God asks of us. Seems that would make Jesus' letters to the churches rather a wasted idea since it doesn't matter what one believes, so long as it's what the earthly denomination of worshippers believe. According to you.

I believe that Jesus is a part of the Godhead. That consists of three separate and distinct personages. But in defining 'who' Jesus is, I believe that Jesus is God's Son, not the God of God who is the Father. The old covenant describes 'who' Jesus is as God's servant. God says, “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations."

Here is my servant (that's God speaking, telling us that Jesus is God's servant), whom I (that's God) uphold (so God is what keeps Jesus going. He is where Jesus gets his strength from). My chosen one (hmmm God chose Jesus, who is Him) in whom I (God) delight. I (God) will put my Spirit, (the Holy Spirit) upon him (uh-oh, how is one who is God, not have God's Spirit all the time?) Why is it necessary that one part of the Godhead has to 'put' the Spirit of another part of the Godhead on another? If Jesus is God, then God doesn't have to put His Spirit on him. He would have always had, from birth, the Spirit of God.

There are several dozen other examples where Paul, writing his salutations, seems to clearly define his greeting to both the Father and the Son. But the next greatest example that I have is Jesus own words in the opening of the writing of John's Revelation of Jesus.
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
So, for me, there is a clear defining of a God who is the Father and a servant, who is Jesus. A servant that God chose to do the things that Jesus did. A servant that God always refers to as His Son. Now, I have a son. He isn't me. I believe that God also has a Son, and it isn't God.
So yes, that understanding that I believe comes straight from the Scriptures, does cause issues when the subject comes up and I say, "Well, I'm not completely sold on that understanding.
Now, many will make the claim, well, Jesus said those great words, "I am". He was saying that he is God. No, if we read the gospels carefully we find that Jesus said that his words were not his own. That it was his Father who 'gave him the words to speak'. So this is similar to when Moses first made the statement to the Jews. Moses was not God, but he's the one that was 'told to say to the people, I am, has sent me. That's exactly what Jesus was saying to the Jews. I am has sent me. God gave Jesus those words to say because He wanted the Jews to know, just like with Moses, that he (Jesus) was speaking for God. And that's pretty clearly what Jesus told us. That the words he spoke were not his own.


Well, then I guess you'll have to figure out 'how' you want to define it. Put it out here for all of us to know 'how' you define it and the rest of us can try to work around your definition. I'm not sure that your inability to define free will is a problem for me.

But Jesus said that he spoke in parables to the people. Seems to me he expected us to look into them and understand what they mean. Because Jesus followed that up by repeating the old covenant claim: This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
Is that who you want to be, one of those hearing but never understanding? I believe that Jesus does want those who are faithful to him to understand the parables, which is why we see a couple of examples where Jesus spoke privately to his disciples to explain for their understanding.

Already covered that.

God bless,
Ted
Great post!
:nod
 
Greetings,

In Post 148 I asked:

‘Are you saying that the Beloved restores our ability to commune with Him – to become spiritually alive through ‘new birth’ – whether we wish it or not?’

In reply, you reference Psalm 110:3. Here it is (in several versions):

‘When you go to war, your people will serve you willingly. You are arrayed in holy garments, and your strength will be renewed each day like the morning dew.’ (‘New Living Translation’).

‘Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holy garments; from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours.’ (‘English Standard Version’).

‘Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.’ (‘King James Bible’).

‘Your people will volunteer on your day of battle. In holy splendor, from the womb of the dawn, the dew of your youth belongs to you.’ (‘Christian Standard Bible’).

‘Your people will volunteer when you call up your army. Your young people will come to you in holy splendor like dew in the early morning.’ (‘God’s Word Translation’).

‘Your soldiers are willing volunteers on your day of battle; in majestic holiness, from the womb, from the dawn, the dew of your youth belongs to you.’ (‘International Standard Version’).

‘Your people come forward willingly on your day of battle. In majestic holiness, from the womb, from the dawn, yours was the dew of youth.’ (‘The Jewish Study Bible’).

Albert Barnes – a noted American theologian – informs us that the word rendered ‘willing’ (‘nedâbôth’) is:

‘…in the plural number… The singular - נדבה nedâbâh - means voluntariness, spontaneousness: and hence, it comes to mean spontaneously, voluntarily, of a willing mind.

‘It is rendered a “willing offering,” in Exodus 35: 29; “free offering,” in Exodus 36: 3; “voluntary offering,” in Leviticus 7: 16; “free-will offering,” in Leviticus 22: 18, Leviticus 22: 21, Leviticus 22: 23; Leviticus 23: 38; Numbers 15: 3; Numbers 29: 39; Deuteronomy 12: 6, Deuteronomy 12: 17; Deuteronomy 16: 10; Deuteronomy 23: 23; 2 Chronicles 31: 14; Ezra 1: 4; Ezra 3: 5; Ezra 8: 28; Psalm 119: 108; “willingly,” in 2 Chronicles 35: 8; “plentiful,” in Psalm 68: 9; “voluntary, and voluntarily,” in Ezekiel 46: 12; “freely,” in Hosea 14: 4; and “free-offering,” in Amos 4: 5.

‘It does not occur elsewhere. The idea is that of “freeness;” of voluntariness; of doing it from choice, doing it of their own will. They did it in the exercise of freedom. There was no compulsion; no constraint.’ (‘Barnes On The Old Testament: Notes On The Whole Bible’; my emphases).

Charles Spurgeon – who writes: I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the Gospel and nothing else.’ (‘Charles Spurgeon Autobiography (2 Volume Set)’ – renders Psalm 110:3 as:

‘Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.’

He comments:

‘Ver. 3. —Thy people shall be willing. Willing to do what? They shall be willing while others are unwilling. The simple term "willing, "is very expressive. It denotes the beautiful condition of creatures who suffer themselves to be wrought upon, and moved, according to the will of God. They suffer God to work in them to will and to do. They are willing to die unto all sin, they are willing to crucify the old man, or self, in order that the new man, or Christ, may be formed in them. They are willing to be weaned from their own thoughts and purposes, that the thoughts and purposes of God may be fulfilled in them. They are willing to be transferred from nature's steps of human descent to God's steps of human ascent.

God will beautify them with salvation, because there is nothing in them to hinder his working. They will be wise, they will be good, they will be lovely, they will be like God, for they are "willing"; and there proceeds from God a mighty spirit, the whole tendency of which is to make his creatures like himself.’ (‘The Treasury of David IX Psalms 101-110’; my emphases).

In Post 142 you declare that ‘natural man does not wish to be saved.’

How can this be true, when there are those who are ‘willing to be weaned from their own thoughts and purposes, that the thoughts and purposes of God may be fulfilled in them’?

Blessings.
:clap:clap:clap
 
[LOL]
I am one of the “Reformed” (Particular Baptist means a Baptist that believes God calls PARTICULAR individuals rather than offering a “GENERAL” salvation to whoever chooses to accept it). I just presented MY “Reformed God” as Loving, Merciful and Just as I see Him portrayed in scripture (and my testimony on why I am a Particular Baptist illustrates God as Loving me, Merciful to me and rescuing me from His Justice that I had earned on my own).
Yes A.
I understand what you posted.
What I'M saying is that although God is described as being loving, merciful and just in the OT and the NT,
I don't recognize these qualities in the REFORMED FAITH.

IOW, I don't believe God can predestinate persons and events and still be seen as having those 3 qualities.

John Calvin, and top reformed theologians of today, such as Piper, MaCarthur, clearly and plainly state that God has predestined EVERY SINGLE EVENT, including sin,

but yet

He is still holy and we are still responsible for our sins through some mystical method we can't understand.

IOW, reformed theology really makes no sense to me and all other Christians.

God loves all. John 3:16
God is rich in mercy. Ephesians 2:4
God is just. Romans 2:6
 
Greetings,

In Post 148 I asked:

‘Are you saying that the Beloved restores our ability to commune with Him – to become spiritually alive through ‘new birth’ – whether we wish it or not?’

In reply, you reference Psalm 110:3. Here it is (in several versions):

‘When you go to war, your people will serve you willingly. You are arrayed in holy garments, and your strength will be renewed each day like the morning dew.’ (‘New Living Translation’).

‘Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holy garments; from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours.’ (‘English Standard Version’).

‘Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.’ (‘King James Bible’).

‘Your people will volunteer on your day of battle. In holy splendor, from the womb of the dawn, the dew of your youth belongs to you.’ (‘Christian Standard Bible’).

‘Your people will volunteer when you call up your army. Your young people will come to you in holy splendor like dew in the early morning.’ (‘God’s Word Translation’).

‘Your soldiers are willing volunteers on your day of battle; in majestic holiness, from the womb, from the dawn, the dew of your youth belongs to you.’ (‘International Standard Version’).

‘Your people come forward willingly on your day of battle. In majestic holiness, from the womb, from the dawn, yours was the dew of youth.’ (‘The Jewish Study Bible’).

Albert Barnes – a noted American theologian – informs us that the word rendered ‘willing’ (‘nedâbôth’) is:

‘…in the plural number… The singular - נדבה nedâbâh - means voluntariness, spontaneousness: and hence, it comes to mean spontaneously, voluntarily, of a willing mind.

‘It is rendered a “willing offering,” in Exodus 35: 29; “free offering,” in Exodus 36: 3; “voluntary offering,” in Leviticus 7: 16; “free-will offering,” in Leviticus 22: 18, Leviticus 22: 21, Leviticus 22: 23; Leviticus 23: 38; Numbers 15: 3; Numbers 29: 39; Deuteronomy 12: 6, Deuteronomy 12: 17; Deuteronomy 16: 10; Deuteronomy 23: 23; 2 Chronicles 31: 14; Ezra 1: 4; Ezra 3: 5; Ezra 8: 28; Psalm 119: 108; “willingly,” in 2 Chronicles 35: 8; “plentiful,” in Psalm 68: 9; “voluntary, and voluntarily,” in Ezekiel 46: 12; “freely,” in Hosea 14: 4; and “free-offering,” in Amos 4: 5.

‘It does not occur elsewhere. The idea is that of “freeness;” of voluntariness; of doing it from choice, doing it of their own will. They did it in the exercise of freedom. There was no compulsion; no constraint.’ (‘Barnes On The Old Testament: Notes On The Whole Bible’; my emphases).

Charles Spurgeon – who writes: I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the Gospel and nothing else.’ (‘Charles Spurgeon Autobiography (2 Volume Set)’ – renders Psalm 110:3 as:

‘Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.’

He comments:

‘Ver. 3. —Thy people shall be willing. Willing to do what? They shall be willing while others are unwilling. The simple term "willing, "is very expressive. It denotes the beautiful condition of creatures who suffer themselves to be wrought upon, and moved, according to the will of God. They suffer God to work in them to will and to do. They are willing to die unto all sin, they are willing to crucify the old man, or self, in order that the new man, or Christ, may be formed in them. They are willing to be weaned from their own thoughts and purposes, that the thoughts and purposes of God may be fulfilled in them. They are willing to be transferred from nature's steps of human descent to God's steps of human ascent.

God will beautify them with salvation, because there is nothing in them to hinder his working. They will be wise, they will be good, they will be lovely, they will be like God, for they are "willing"; and there proceeds from God a mighty spirit, the whole tendency of which is to make his creatures like himself.’ (‘The Treasury of David IX Psalms 101-110’; my emphases).

In Post 142 you declare that ‘natural man does not wish to be saved.’

How can this be true, when there are those who are ‘willing to be weaned from their own thoughts and purposes, that the thoughts and purposes of God may be fulfilled in them’?

Blessings.
Powerful!!!!
 
Greetings,

In Post 148 I asked:

‘Are you saying that the Beloved restores our ability to commune with Him – to become spiritually alive through ‘new birth’ – whether we wish it or not?’

In reply, you reference Psalm 110:3. Here it is (in several versions):

‘When you go to war, your people will serve you willingly. You are arrayed in holy garments, and your strength will be renewed each day like the morning dew.’ (‘New Living Translation’).

‘Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holy garments; from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours.’ (‘English Standard Version’).

‘Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.’ (‘King James Bible’).

‘Your people will volunteer on your day of battle. In holy splendor, from the womb of the dawn, the dew of your youth belongs to you.’ (‘Christian Standard Bible’).

‘Your people will volunteer when you call up your army. Your young people will come to you in holy splendor like dew in the early morning.’ (‘God’s Word Translation’).

‘Your soldiers are willing volunteers on your day of battle; in majestic holiness, from the womb, from the dawn, the dew of your youth belongs to you.’ (‘International Standard Version’).

‘Your people come forward willingly on your day of battle. In majestic holiness, from the womb, from the dawn, yours was the dew of youth.’ (‘The Jewish Study Bible’).

Albert Barnes – a noted American theologian – informs us that the word rendered ‘willing’ (‘nedâbôth’) is:

‘…in the plural number… The singular - נדבה nedâbâh - means voluntariness, spontaneousness: and hence, it comes to mean spontaneously, voluntarily, of a willing mind.

‘It is rendered a “willing offering,” in Exodus 35: 29; “free offering,” in Exodus 36: 3; “voluntary offering,” in Leviticus 7: 16; “free-will offering,” in Leviticus 22: 18, Leviticus 22: 21, Leviticus 22: 23; Leviticus 23: 38; Numbers 15: 3; Numbers 29: 39; Deuteronomy 12: 6, Deuteronomy 12: 17; Deuteronomy 16: 10; Deuteronomy 23: 23; 2 Chronicles 31: 14; Ezra 1: 4; Ezra 3: 5; Ezra 8: 28; Psalm 119: 108; “willingly,” in 2 Chronicles 35: 8; “plentiful,” in Psalm 68: 9; “voluntary, and voluntarily,” in Ezekiel 46: 12; “freely,” in Hosea 14: 4; and “free-offering,” in Amos 4: 5.

‘It does not occur elsewhere. The idea is that of “freeness;” of voluntariness; of doing it from choice, doing it of their own will. They did it in the exercise of freedom. There was no compulsion; no constraint.’ (‘Barnes On The Old Testament: Notes On The Whole Bible’; my emphases).

Charles Spurgeon – who writes: I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the Gospel and nothing else.’ (‘Charles Spurgeon Autobiography (2 Volume Set)’ – renders Psalm 110:3 as:

‘Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.’

He comments:

‘Ver. 3. —Thy people shall be willing. Willing to do what? They shall be willing while others are unwilling. The simple term "willing, "is very expressive. It denotes the beautiful condition of creatures who suffer themselves to be wrought upon, and moved, according to the will of God. They suffer God to work in them to will and to do. They are willing to die unto all sin, they are willing to crucify the old man, or self, in order that the new man, or Christ, may be formed in them. They are willing to be weaned from their own thoughts and purposes, that the thoughts and purposes of God may be fulfilled in them. They are willing to be transferred from nature's steps of human descent to God's steps of human ascent.

God will beautify them with salvation, because there is nothing in them to hinder his working. They will be wise, they will be good, they will be lovely, they will be like God, for they are "willing"; and there proceeds from God a mighty spirit, the whole tendency of which is to make his creatures like himself.’ (‘The Treasury of David IX Psalms 101-110’; my emphases).

In Post 142 you declare that ‘natural man does not wish to be saved.’

How can this be true, when there are those who are ‘willing to be weaned from their own thoughts and purposes, that the thoughts and purposes of God may be fulfilled in them’?

Blessings.
The natural man who is unwilling,is given a new heart ezk 36:25-27...this enables him.
Many speak of this as being born again.
 
Yes A.
I understand what you posted.
What I'M saying is that although God is described as being loving, merciful and just in the OT and the NT,
I don't recognize these qualities in the REFORMED FAITH.

IOW, I don't believe God can predestinate persons and events and still be seen as having those 3 qualities.

John Calvin, and top reformed theologians of today, such as Piper, MaCarthur, clearly and plainly state that God has predestined EVERY SINGLE EVENT, including sin,

but yet

He is still holy and we are still responsible for our sins through some mystical method we can't understand.

IOW, reformed theology really makes no sense to me and all other Christians.

God loves all. John 3:16
God is rich in mercy. Ephesians 2:4
God is just. Romans 2:6
You blame God for mans sin.
What if "reformed"Christians are the only ones? What if that alone is the biblical teaching?
 
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Yes A.
I understand what you posted.
What I'M saying is that although God is described as being loving, merciful and just in the OT and the NT,
I don't recognize these qualities in the REFORMED FAITH.

IOW, I don't believe God can predestinate persons and events and still be seen as having those 3 qualities.

John Calvin, and top reformed theologians of today, such as Piper, MaCarthur, clearly and plainly state that God has predestined EVERY SINGLE EVENT, including sin,

but yet

He is still holy and we are still responsible for our sins through some mystical method we can't understand.

IOW, reformed theology really makes no sense to me and all other Christians.

God loves all. John 3:16
God is rich in mercy. Ephesians 2:4
God is just. Romans 2:6
I agree.
 
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