Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........Some

[Dorothy Mae]

miamited

Re: John 1:12-13 Interesting answer. That is a possibility I suppose. You didn't address the other part of the verses saying man is not saved by the will of man. How does that fit in your 'free will' theology that says it up to man's will to decide regarding salvation.

But qas many as received Him, to them He gave the 5right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 rwho were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Not "as many as were born of God" but as many as received him. They had to choose to receive him. This part of the verse you continually ignore.

Wow .... I think you are going way out on a limb with that explanation. Again, kudos for directly answering questions.
Hmmm, I wonder if someone that hears the gospel incorrectly preached will have a second chance such that Christ comes to them and explains things rightly and they accept Him. I don't think so, but gets my vote as does universalism. ... not a democracy, but that's my vote.

Why kind of a God do you think He is? One chance and that is it, buster? The God of Calvinism, as wondering has said, is pretty unkind and cruel. God calls and calls and calls. He is long-suffering. (Do you need a scripture for that character quality?)

Oh, I can define FREE WILL ... the ability to choose according to your greatest desire (at the time). Where our desires are determined by God.
But, to understand your position you would have to state your definition. I can't impose my definition upon you.

That definition is pretty much hedonism...following the lusts of whatever.

Empirical evidence shows we don't understand. Jesus himself said something like the reason He gave them was to hinder their understanding ... at any rate, parables/analogies are more susceptible to abuse than plain statements.

It was not for that reason per se and what is more, he explained the parables to his followers. They understood them. But the parables are not a friend of the Reformed thinkers, I grant you. God is never doing anything in those parables that support Reformed theology. I mean the parable of the different soils lays the blame square on the soil receiving the truth. That is not at all what you want to read.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Fastfredy0 said: Since I believe God predestined all things

Can you give me the Scriptural reference that leads you to that understanding?

Eph. 1:11;
Psalm 33:10 The Lord nullifies the counsel of the nations; He makes the thoughts and plans Of the people ineffective. 11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever, The thoughts and plans of His heart through all generations.
Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man’s mind, But it is the Lord’s purpose for him that will stand (be carried out).
Isaiah 46:10; Matthew 11:25-26; Acts 2:23; Acts 4:27-28; Ephesians 1:5,9,11
Job 41:11 Who has first given to Me, that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heavens is Mine. Free Will (which you have not defined so I am assuming) would answer this rhetorical question with: I am the author of my salvific faith for which you must repay me as you promised. I am sovereign in the area as you have advocated Your authority to me; in this I boast for in this area I am righteous in and of myself)
Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]” Free Will (which you have not defined so I am assuming) contradicts this verse as it supposes I am the author of my salvific faith for which you must repay me as you promised.
... I could go on ... and on .... anyways

I know that God knows all things. He knows the end from the beginning, but that, to me, doesn't say that He predestines all things.

Logically, if God knows all things then He must determine all things.
Premise 1: God knows all thing before the foundation of the earth
Premise 2: From nothing, nothing comes Latin: ex nihilo nihil fit
Conclusion: God must determine all things as His immutable knowledge at one time was confined to himself (as that is all that existed before creation). FREE WILL (which you have not defined so I am assuming) of individuals could not be known by God as it did not exist and is independent of God.
Aside: If you don't define FREE WILL then I am basically talking to myself.

But you believe that God predestined all of the sin and suffering in the world?

If God did not then He can't be all-knowing. His knowledge must come from man after creation. He cannot be eternal as His knowledge would be changed by man's doings. God would not be God by definition.

Honestly, it seems to me that if God were predestining everything that man has done...He would have predestined that Eve not eat the fruit.

I like this.... blame the woman *giggle*
God is all-knowing thus you must of predestined it.... logic above .... but, for the sake of argument let's assume Eve had free will (which you have not defined so I am assuming).
God knows Eve is going to 'blows it' so He either:
1) Send Eves to Hell and start over and save us a lot of misery. (If Eve2 "blows it", then repeat till we have an EVE that fits our purpose.
2) Creates an initial Eve that He know won't "blow it"

Your premise assumes God doesn't always get what He wants.

Fred

 

[GodsGrace]

ἑλκύσῃ

συνεζωοποίησεν

There was a thread on this some time ago.
Some verses mean ATTRACT
and some verses mean DRAG

There's a difference.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: Define Free Will

What? You make choices every day for which those around you praise you or disapprove of. You LIVE with the knowledge that you have free will and so do those you Iive with and hold them equally responsible. I mean, how blind can a person be. And a note, I would rather live alone than with life a man who only and always does what he desires. That is one egoistic and sensual human being whose lusts control their behavior. That is your definition.

This is VERY confusing.

You make choices every day for which those around you praise you or disapprove of.

I don't think I should have to help you with your definition of Free Will. What you have done, and I've seen this before is define what the WILL part of FREE WILL is. You forgot to define the FREE part. They don't put the adjective in front of the noun for no reason. .... the crux a definition of FREE WILL is the FREE part. WHY did you choose?

you LIVE with the knowledge that you have free will and so do those you Iive with and hold them equally responsible. I mean, how blind can a person be.

This is NOT a definition.

I would rather live alone than with life a man who only and always does what he desires. That is one egoistic and sensual human being whose lusts control their behavior. That is your definition.

This is NOT my definition. My definition was: One does what one desires most at the time.
Give me an example where you did not do what you desired most at the time. Now, your various desires have to be weighed again one another and they may conflict, but in the end you will choice your greatest desire.

Example:
Desire 1: You think I am a 'turd' right now
Desire 2: I want scream at Fastfredy
Desire 3: He does have a cute butt though *giggle*
Desire 4: I would to be polite
Desire 5: What Would Jesus Do
Desire 6: Don't want to break a forum rule .... they might ostracize me
Desire 7: I would like a candy right now (probably be irrelevant)
Choice: the bringing together of all your desires and choosing your greatest desire.

No the largest and fastest growing faith is Christianity far and away. The Muslims in western nations by and large are not very devoted. If they were, western nations would have a LOT more trouble. The more a Christian is like Christ, the better the society. The more a Muslim is like Mohammed, the worse the society.

Tend to agree.... not an expert on it .... immigration as I understand it in Europe has allowed for many Muslims to emigrate. I heard they've may a mess of Sweden. (I'm just guessing from anecdotal info I randomly get).

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: My definition of free will

That definition is pretty much hedonism...following the lusts of whatever.

Agreed, the greatest desire can be hedonistic and lustful.

he explained the parables to his followers.

Well, probably so. But Jesus did not explain all His parables to us. So my point still stands: parables are analogies that are easily manipulated relative to didactic verses. (Aside: gee, we manipulate didactic verses let alone parables.

But the parables are not a friend of the Reformed thinkers, I grant you.

I don't see them being the friend to any denomination.

God is never doing anything in those parables that support Reformed theology. I mean the parable of the different soils lays the blame square on the soil receiving the truth. That is not at all what you want to read.

I don't agree.

 

[Fastfredy0]

@atpollard said: So then why do not ALL MEN resist yielding?

Same reason not all men seethe value in working hard and making a living for a family.

LOL... that was an evasive reply.

Jack: Joe, why did you wear blue shoes.
Joe: Same reason you at pizza last night.
Aside: Maybe I missed something

LOL.... kept reading and found this ... guess two of us came to same conclusion.

An evasive non-answer.

caio

 

[miamited]

Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man’s mind, But it is the Lord’s purpose for him that will stand (be carried out).

WOW!

There have been 35 mass shootings in 2022, says Fox. The escalation has been driven by what Fox calls “an unprecedented surge” of 13 mass shootings resulting in four or more deaths since Oct. 3.

The will of God at work. It is He who has carried out His purpose in the lives of all those 35 mass shootings.

The man that shot those people shopping in Buffalo had many plans of his own, but it was the Lord's purpose for him that he carried out. Sorry. You're going to have to believe that on your own.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Iconoclast]

WOW!

There have been 35 mass shootings in 2022, says Fox. The escalation has been driven by what Fox calls “an unprecedented surge” of 13 mass shootings resulting in four or more deaths since Oct. 3.

The will of God at work. It is He who has carried out His purpose in the lives of all those 35 mass shootings.

The man that shot those people shopping in Buffalo had many plans of his own, but it was the Lord's purpose for him that he carried out. Sorry. You're going to have to believe that on your own.

God bless,
Ted

God has ordained such things to come to pass...He did not cause it as you imply.
Every man and woman has an "appointed time of death"
The means that it happens vary. Sometimes God directly, sometimes God uses evil people.
Do you read your bible Ted? Look and see;


15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:

19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

It could be the Sabeans, or it could be a deranged person in Buffalo. You seem to post bible verses , did you forget these in your attempt to fight off the bible on God's control?
Fox news did not report on it, but the bible did.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

@atpollard said: So then why do not ALL MEN resist yielding?

Because they decide the evidence is persuasive and/or they see their sin and experience forgiveness.

LOL... that was an evasive reply.

No, it was a reply in the manner that Jesus gave....trying to get a man to think.

Jack: Joe, why did you wear blue shoes.
Joe: Same reason you at pizza last night.
Aside: Maybe I missed something

There is no connection there. And what shoes a man wears might actually have a reason. How about, I change to different shoes every other day.

LOL.... kept reading and found this ... guess two of us came to same conclusion.

Hard to get people to apply their theology to real life. There is often a disconnect.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Re: My definition of free will

Agreed, the greatest desire can be hedonistic and lustful.

When "free will" means everyone following their desire, that is the outcome. Scripture doesn't support looking at legitimate choices as following your desires constantly.

Well, probably so. But Jesus did not explain all His parables to us. So my point still stands: parables are analogies that are easily manipulated relative to didactic verses. (Aside: gee, we manipulate didactic verses let alone parables.

Maybe

I don't see them being the friend to any denomination.

Might be. Haven't thought about it much.

I don't agree.

But that is what the parable says. The success of the truth lays with the persons receiving.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Because they decide the evidence is persuasive and/or they see their sin and experience forgiveness.

Again, the crux of the matter is WHY DO PEOPLE DECIDE TO DO X OR Y?
My side says God is the cause. Your side doesn't define FREE WILL (or defines it so loosely as to not be creditable) yet says this undefined force called FREE WILL causes you to do X or Y.

When "free will" means everyone following their desire, that is the outcome. Scripture doesn't support looking at legitimate choices as following your desires constantly.

I know you don't like quoting scripture... but give an example in Scripture where anyone include God Himself did not do what they desired most that is not anthropomorphic. Again, you haven't defined FREE WILL as I pointed out earlier, yet it is one of you primary doctrines. DEFINE IT!!! It is a choice, it is FREE, but FREE from what!!!!!

 

[atpollard]

Foreign languages not allowed and those words are not verses.

You stated “Where do those verses Godforces us to seek Him, etc? The word FORCE as against the will needs to be there.” and I responded by offering the EXACT WORD in those verses that stated what you asked ”where”. If I offered the English translation of the word, we would digress into a debate about the various meanings of the English word that one particular translator chose. The ORIGINAL WORD in the ORIGINAL LANGUAGE at least centers any debate on shades of meaning on what God actually inspired them to write.

Those words are found in the two “verses” that I originally quoted and you asked “where” in response to.

ἑλκύσῃ = Thayer's Greek Lexicon (STRONGS G1670)

ἕλκω (and in later writings ἑλκύω also [Veitch, under the word; Winer's Grammar, 86 (82)]); imperfect εἷλκον (Acts 21:30); future ἑλκύσω [ἑλκ. Rec.elzJohn 12:32]; 1 aorist εἵλκυσα ([infinitive (John 21:6) ἑλκύσαι Rbez elz L T WH, -κύσαι Rst G Tr]; cf. Bttm. Ausf. Spr. § 114, vol. ii., p. 171; Krüger § 40, under the word; [Lob. Paralip., p. 35f; Veitch, under the word]); from Homer down; Sept. for מָשַׁך; to draw;​

1. properly: τὸ δίκτυον, John 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, John 18:10 (Sophocles Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινά, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τὴν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, James 2:6 (πρὸς τὸν δῆμον, Aristophanes eqq. 710; and in Latin, as Caesar b. g. 1, 53 (54, 4) cum trinis catenis vinctus traheretur, Livy 2, 27 cum a lictoribus jam traheretur).​

2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας... ἑλκουσης ἐπὶ ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπὸ τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (4 Macc 15:11). trahit sua quemque voluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; [Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.]​

[Jhn 6:44 KJV] 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw[G1670] him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[Jhn 12:32 KJV] 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw[G1670] all [men] unto me.
[Jhn 18:10 KJV] 10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew[G1670] it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
[Jhn 21:6, 11 KJV] 6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw[G1670] it for the multitude of fishes. ... 11 Simon Peter went up, and drew[G1670] the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
[Act 16:19 KJV] 19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew[G1670] [them] into the marketplace unto the rulers,
[Act 21:30 KJV] 30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew[G1670] him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.
[Jas 2:6 KJV] 6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw[G1670] you before the judgment seats?

 

[Fastfredy0]

miamited

Still waiting for your definition of FREE WILL. I assume it's a choice. Why is it free? Free from what?​

Another question ... did you decide of your 'free will' to be depraved (definition below) or was it God?

Depraved defined: depravity is a phrase or name that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. The doctrine of depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. Gotquestions.org

 

[jasonc]

God has ordained such things to come to pass...He did not cause it as you imply.
Every man and woman has an "appointed time of death"
The means that it happens vary. Sometimes God directly, sometimes God uses evil people.
Do you read your bible Ted? Look and see;


15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:

19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

It could be the Sabeans, or it could be a deranged person in Buffalo. You seem to post bible verses , did you forget these in your attempt to fight off the bible on God's control?
Fox news did not report on it, but the bible did.

Today I replaced an alternator for a single mother who I felt bad for .I had to remove her right front tire and noticed a sever side wall impact and told her it wasn't safe .she planned a trip of 10 hours.

I did get the belt on without taking that tire off and I was praying about this job and her as she has no male able to fix her car and a son .

Coincidence on the tire ? No.i thought that it was God leading me to see it .

 

[atpollard]

No, it was a reply in the manner that Jesus gave....trying to get a man to think.

Therein lies the problem … confusion over which one of you is God.
[that was just a joke]

 

[Iconoclast]

Today I replaced an alternator for a single mother who I felt bad for .I had to remove her right front tire and noticed a sever side wall impact and told her it wasn't safe .she planned a trip of 10 hours.

I did get the belt on without taking that tire off and I was praying about this job and her as she has no male able to fix her car and a son .

Coincidence on the tire ? No.i thought that it was God leading me to see it .

Yes exactly Jason. In the providnce of God you helped this woman and warnrd her of the condition of the tire.
God is in control of whatsoever comes to pass.

 

[Fastfredy0]

[Jhn 6:44 KJV] 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw[G1670] him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[Jhn 12:32 KJV] 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw[G1670] all [men] unto me.
[Jhn 18:10 KJV] 10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew[G1670] it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
[Jhn 21:6, 11 KJV] 6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw[G1670] it for the multitude of fishes. ... 11 Simon Peter went up, and drew[G1670] the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
[Act 16:19 KJV] 19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew[G1670] [them] into the marketplace unto the rulers,
[Act 21:30 KJV] 30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew[G1670] him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.
[Jas 2:6 KJV] 6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw[G1670] you before the judgment seats?

Kewl ... I don't have your prowess when it comes to Greek and tenses and such.

https://netbible.org/bible is a website where you can bring up and bible verse, put your cursor on an English word and the Greek counterpart comes up. I checked your verses John 6:44 and John 6,11 and it confirmed what you said.
ἑλκύσαι
Morphology: VNAA Strong's: 1670 Transliterated: helkusai Root: ἕλκω
1) to draw, drag off 2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel


Hmmm... looked up 10 or so translations. They all use "draw" (well, one used "drawn"). I then asked: "I wonder why the translators didn't use what to me is a stronger word like IMPEL" which sounds more like "forced".

Looked at English dictionary.... DRAW defined as "To cause to move after or toward one by applying continuous force;"

... interesting ...

 

[Fastfredy0]

Today I replaced an alternator for a single mother

Hey, I replaced the solenoid on my fridge. Luckily my brother-in-law is an appliance guy and after I described the problem he guessed at the solution and told me the part to order. As I was about to test it I gave a short prayer and .... drum roll .... it worked

 

[atpollard]

Kewl ... I don't have your prowess when it comes to Greek and tenses and such.

Don’t be impressed … I ain’t all that and a bag of chips. My GOOGLE-FU is just strong.
I use BLUELETTERBIBLE.org that has lots of linked in tools to check out different translations and the original words and commentaries.

 

[miamited]

miamited

Depraved defined: depravity is a phrase or name that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. The doctrine of depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. Gotquestions.org​

Hi Fastfredy0

Thankfully, for those who have trusted to follow Jesus, their minds are renewed with the washing of God's word.

Listen, if it's really important to you to believe that everything that you see happening every day on the earth is by God's sovereign will, you are free to believe that. What I believe is that for the majority of the world, it's more like how Paul says God has released them to do that which ought not be done.

God bless,
Ted