Is believing/faith a work ?

[Hopeful]

They either lose the justification they had, or they show they never really had it to begin with (i.e. Galatians 5:2-4).

So faith's rewards are revocable.
Agreed.

Depends on if their bad behavior is the result of unbelief or not.

How can a man trust God and continue to thwart Him?

Sin condemns the person who has stopped believing, or never believed to begin with (Hebrews 10:26-28).

Agreed.

Sin does not condemn the person who's sin is covered by the Ministry and Sacrifice of Christ that they believe and trust in, that Ministry and Sacrifice continually interceding for them on their behalf on the altar in heaven (Hebrews 7:25, Romans 8:34).

That is a doctrine of devils.
The only sins "covered by the blood of Christ" are those washed away at baptism in His name.

He was talking about the person who is presently 'believing'.
'Hearing' and 'believing' are in the present tense in John 5:24.
Whoever is presently hearing His word, and presently believing has eternal life and has passed from death to life.

Then it was the Jews He was talking to that would benefit from His speech in John 5:24.
Especially since He had not yet been crucified or resurrected.

Truly, truly, I say to you that the one hearing My word and believing the One having sent Me, he has eternal life and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5:24
This is in real time and in this age and not at the moment of transition into the afterlife, being easily confirmed by these passages:
1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1 John 2:24-25
The person who believes and continues to believe is saved now and has eternal life now, and will remain that way as long as they are believing.

Continues to believe and manifests that belief.
All the NT repentant who have been baptized into Christ and into His death have already started their eternal life.
That repentance will be judged on the last day.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your doctrine robs folks of doing anything by their faith.

Some "righteousness apart from works" teachings do that. Mine does not. I do not leave out the essential part that genuine justifying faith is, and must be, signified by the obedience it produces, or else it is the dead, works-less fake 'faith' that even demons have. Which is no faith at all. For the faith that justifies is the faith that your sins have been forgiven by God. Pretty sure demons don't believe their sins have been forgiven in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

All the NT repentant who have been baptized into Christ and into His death have already started their eternal life.

That's what John 5:24 says!

That repentance will be judged on the last day.

...but not to determine if God should justify that person, but to determine if they are already justified by faith in the gospel. Their works being the evidence of their love for Christ, not the procurer of it. Matthew 25:35-46

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That is a doctrine of devils.
The only sins "covered by the blood of Christ" are those washed away at baptism in His name.

Your sinless perfection doctrine has no demonstrable evidence to show that it is true. But verses like Galatians 5:17, THAT is the truth that is easily verified through actual evidence.

Look, I'm sure you're a stand up guy. But you have not been sinlessly perfect for 16 years since being born again. I suspect you think you have to believe that in order to be a saved person. You're deluding yourself.

 

[Hopeful]

Abraham was justified solely on the basis of his believing.

How could Anyone tell he believed?
By his actions.

The demonstration and proof of his believing in Genesis 22:12 did not make him righteous. It showed him to be righteous. He became righteous way back in Genesis 15:6. You are still stuck in the erroneous Catholic doctrine of justification.

Such quibbling over words.
In the time span of eternity, do you think God measures minutes and seconds?
Declared to be...actually was...showed by action...in total, justification was granted.
Why worry about the nano-second justification starts?

Because they don't have faith. They believe the gospel is true because they know it's true. They do not believe their sins are forgiven in Christ.

How do you know?

Big difference. They do not have justifying faith in God.

The devils have all the knowledge of millennia to know He is true.

That's James' point about dead faith. Dead faith is NO faith.

Dead faith is manifested, illustrated by inaction.

It's not real faith that their sins are forgiven in Christ. That's why that 'faith' does not work righteousness. It's not faith that one's sins are forgiven in Christ.

Abraham manifested his faith with actions that warranted justification.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How can a man trust God and continue to thwart Him?

He can't.
He has either stopped trusting him, or he never really trusted him to begin with.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, but that did not MAKE you righteous.

It all works together.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How could Anyone tell he believed?
By his actions.

That's what I've been saying, lol!
Abraham's obedience in Genesis 22:12 SHOWED that he had the righteousness of faith, not MADE him to have the righteousness of faith! He got that way back in Genesis 15:6.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, but that did not MAKE you righteous.

It resulted in righteousness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It all works together.

Yes, they do go together. But not to MAKE you righteous! Faith does that all by itself. And if that really happened you will have the works to validate it. And so faith and works only go together in that regard. Not to MAKE you righteous.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It resulted in righteousness.

No, your faith did that all by itself.
Your obedience only showed that you had that faith.
Just as it was for Abraham, our example of how we also are made righteous by faith apart from works, and shown to have that righteousness by our obedience.

 

[Hopeful]

Not even the righteousness of 'love your neighbor as yourself' can make you righteous. Only having your sins removed through forgiveness can make you righteous.

I agree, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins will make you righteous. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)
Thanks be to God we can hold on to that faith for our entire life since the resurrection of Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Abraham manifested his faith with actions that warranted justification.

Yes, but not the justification of being made righteous, but rather the justification of being shown to be righteous. There is a difference!

 

[Hopeful]

That's what John 5:24 says!


...but not to determine if God should justify that person, but to determine if they are already justified by faith in the gospel. Their works being the evidence of their love for Christ, not the procurer of it. Matthew 25:35-46

If their faith was a sham, shown by the sins they will be judged for after their confession of Christ, they will be determined unjustified.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The devils have all the knowledge of millennia to know He is true.

But you're not listening.
They do not have the faith that their sins are forgiven in Christ. THAT is the faith that justifies! Simply knowing something is true is not justifying faith. It's fake faith.

 

[Hopeful]

Your sinless perfection doctrine has no demonstrable evidence to show that it is true. But verses like Galatians 5:17, THAT is the truth that is easily verified through actual evidence.

Real faith doesn't end.
It doesn't ebb and flow.

Look, I'm sure you're a stand up guy. But you have not been sinlessly perfect for 16 years since being born again. I suspect you think you have to believe that in order to be a saved person. You're deluding yourself.

Show the sin, or change subject.
That which is reborn of God's seed can not bring forth the fruit of the devil. (1 John 3:9-10)

 

[Hopeful]

No, your faith did that all by itself.
Your obedience only showed that you had that faith.
Just as it was for Abraham, our example of how we also are made righteous by faith apart from works, and shown to have that righteousness by our obedience.

Repentance from sin and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins showed I had faith, but it didn't show I was righteous.
They made me righteous, as I was not righteous before I did both.
Only after my "temple" was made clean, was it fit for the residence of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Deidr]

To believe in scripture is an action verb, If you condition your salvation before God on your believing, then congrats, you promote salvation by works.

Hi
If we know it was not by any works of righteousness we have done.

Then whose?

If you answer Jesus's works then consider:

Jesus believed His father and If all He did was believe without going to the cross then we would still be in ours sins.

So believe is not a work of righteousness
but the way of righteousness.



TITUS 3:5

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Real faith doesn't end.
It doesn't ebb and flow.

1 Timothy 1:19
19holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith.

Before you post a response, ask yourself, why would Paul be talking about holding onto and not rejecting fake faith? (Because that's what kind of faith you're going to say is rejected.) Obviously, he's talking about holding onto genuine faith, which some have had but have rejected. The exhortation is to hold onto and not reject genuine faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Show the sin, or change subject.
That which is reborn of God's seed can not bring forth the fruit of the devil. (1 John 3:9-10)

The one I know about is you choosing not to acknowledge Galatians 5:17. As for the rest of your life, I'm not there to see your sins. But like I say, I have no reason to think you're not a stand up guy.

You just don't seem to get it that your sinless perfection argument is demonstrably and patently false. I have never met a single sinlessly perfect Christian, and more, one who has been that since the day they first believed. It's a ridiculous claim that can not be backed by any practical evidence whatsoever.