Is believing/faith a work ?

[Jethro Bodine]

edward



Its fair, but please stop with the sly insults.



Okay, but still whoever it is, if we condition Salvation on anything we do, its works, no matter how much we deny it or minimize it !

But is believing a 'work's that can not justify. That is the point you se oblivious to.

 

[GodsGrace]

Such a forlorn doctrine.
Jesus did the suffering and dying, but we can't react to it with repentance and water baptism in His name for the remission of sins.

Nothing would make any difference for those who imagine they are saved before the day of judgement.

Hundreds of sects with doctrines/ways to disobey God, and still call yourself a believer, suits the disobedient haters of Government to a tee.

Yeah.
We should start the OBEY JESUS CLUB.
I do believe that's what He meant for us to do.

 

[Hopeful]

I tell you what I have learned, if we believe anything we have done was condition to do in order for God to save us, then its works salvation and a abomination before God. That I have learned friend.

Your doctrines "condition" is that if you do any thing to become a convert you are not saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is not the "works" that Paul wrote about for salvation.
He wrote against circumcision, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, tithing, and dietary rule keeping for salvation.
Nothing against repentance from sin or water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
Nothing against praying or fasting.
He wrote nothing against loving God with all your heart, soul, and strength.
Nothing against doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.
These are all conditions for salvation.

These in no way make a person righteous. Justification is what is secured by faith apart from condition of works.

They are certainly the expected and obligatory obediences of faith, without which a person will not be saved on the Day of Christ, but they in no way justify a person (make them righteous). Faith does that all by itself apart from the works of obedience you listed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Alrighty then, using your logic then Bible is then a fallible and untrustworthy resource as if your interpretation is right, then all those verses contradict themselves and the foundation of the Bible collapses. My friend, maybe we need to reevaluate things.

I do hope you realize you're in the CALVINISM forum.
Some here are of the reformed faith.
The OP is one of them.

But, yes, not even all reformed believe that faith is a work.
Paul SPECIFICALLY stated that faith and works are two totally different methods.
Seems easy enough to understand...

 

[Hopeful]

John 5:24

Do you think the devils rejoiced when they heard that?
And what if the "believers" change their mind later?
Or act like unbelievers by sinning against a neighbor?
Still saved?

Or was Jesus talking about a completed life of belief before the day of judgement?

 

[GodsGrace]

I tell you what I have learned, if we believe anything we have done was condition to do in order for God to save us, then its works salvation and a abomination before God. That I have learned friend.

The problem BF, is: Where do you learn this stuff?

I was listening to this guy on YouTube today that was explaining what you believe.
Is YouTube where you learned this?

 

[Hopeful]

These in no way make a person righteous. Justification is what is secured by faith apart from condition of works.

I think having all your past sins washed away by the atoning, justifying, sanctifying blood of Christ does indeed make one righteous.

They are certainly the expected and obligatory obediences of faith, without which a person will not be saved on the Day of Christ, but they in no way justify a person (make them righteous). Faith does that all by itself apart from the works of obedience you listed.

If doing what Jesus commanded doesn't justify anyone, Christianity is a waste of time.
If we believe He existed, and who He was, we will do what He said to do.
Isn't that justification?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you think the devils rejoiced when they heard that?
And what if the "believers" change their mind later?
Or act like unbelievers by sinning against a neighbor?
Still saved?

Or was Jesus talking about a completed life of belief before the day of judgement?

Devils don't believe in their heart and confess with their mouth unto salvation. You know it and I know it.

You don't understand that dead faith signifies that it is not really faith and, therefore, did not result in receiving the righteousness that comes by believing, apart from works. You erroneously think that you have to add works to faith to be made righteous by that faith. No! Works only SHOW if you have the faith that justifies apart from works - James 2:18.

 

[Hopeful]

Devils don't believe in their heart and confess with their mouth unto salvation. You know it and I know it.

They believe it more than anybody.
Belief isn't worth anything.
Acting on it manifests belief.

You don't understand that dead faith signifies that it is not really faith and,

I do understand.

therefore, did not result in receiving the righteousness that comes by believing, apart from works. You erroneously think that you have to add works to faith to be made righteous by that faith. No! Works only SHOW if you have the faith that justifies apart from works - James 2:18.

Faith cannot be hidden by inaction.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think having all your past sins washed away by the atoning, justifying, sanctifying blood of Christ does indeed make one righteous.

If doing what Jesus commanded doesn't justify anyone, Christianity is a waste of time.
If we believe He existed, and who He was, we will do what He said to do.
Isn't that justification?

Justification occurs when we believe he exists and that he is the ransom for our sins, and we want that. Then we will do what He said to do.

What you're not getting is that is not how you get justified (made righteous). The believing does that ALL BY ITSELF. The work that follows is the RESULT of being made righteous, not the work that makes you righteous. Work does not make us righteous.

Work can never do that because justification occurs when your unrighteousness is forgiven, not when you do a righteous ritual or work. That's how Abraham, our example (Romans 4:23-24) was justified (Romans 4:6). God does not wait until you do something righteous to make you righteous. You do something righteous because you were made righteous. At which time you are SHOWN to be righteous, not made righteous. Abraham was MADE righteous in Genesis 15:6. He was SHOWN to be righteous in Genesis 22:12.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith cannot be hidden by inaction.

I did not know I said that. I didn't, of course.

 

[jaybo]

"4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing]."

So one can FALL FROM GRACE?

Yes, if you revert back to trying to be justified by the law.

 

[Rookie]

I do hope you realize you're in the CALVINISM forum.
Some here are of the reformed faith.
The OP is one of them.

But, yes, not even all reformed believe that faith is a work.
Paul SPECIFICALLY stated that faith and works are two totally different methods.
Seems easy enough to understand...

I know this is a calvinism forum. However I'm all about Biblicalism because all ism's that don't conform 100% to Christ will become wasm's. If we read James we can see that faith without works is dead.

 

[atpollard]

If we read James we can see that faith without works is dead.

As a happy coincidence, I actually DID read James’ letter. I even remember him saying something very similar to what you said. Would you be willing to explain what James meant a little clearer so that I don’t misunderstand?

Thank you.
(All these ‘catch phrases’ can be so confusing when everyone seems to say the same thing but mean something different.)

 

[Rookie]

As a happy coincidence, I actually DID read James’ letter. I even remember him saying something very similar to what you said. Would you be willing to explain what James meant a little clearer so that I don’t misunderstand?

Thank you.
(All these ‘catch phrases’ can be so confusing when everyone seems to say the same thing but mean something different.)

James 2:14-26
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
_________________
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen - Hebrews 11:1

So faith and works work together in unison. True genuine faith automatically produces works, for example if you have faith in a chair what will you do? Sit in it, if you don't, you won't. Works is the proof of your faith since faith isn't a tangible thing. Many can claim faith due to it not being tangible but true faith produces works, or as Jesus said in Matthew 7, ye shall know them by their fruit.
And in verses 21-23, anyone can say Lord Lord but not all truly have faith. Faith is measured by your walk not your talk by your life not your lips by your movement not your mouth. So works don't get us into heaven no we obey not to become children of God but because we are children of God we obey. But faith in Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit, changes us and good works AUTOMATICALLY come if your faith is genuine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith cannot be hidden by inaction.

You erroneously think that you have to add works to faith to be made righteous by that faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Belief isn't worth anything.
Acting on it manifests belief.

Belief was worth everything to Abraham.
He was justified by his faith apart from work when he believed God in Genesis 15:6.
That justification was shown to be genuine by his obedience in Genesis 22:12.

Abraham's obedience in Genesis 22:12 did not make his faith effectual towards justification. It showed his faith in Genesis 15:6 to have been effectual.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They believe it more than anybody.

Believing implies trust.
Demons do not trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin.
They do not have the faith of Abraham who believed the promises of God as demonstrated by his obedience.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If doing what Jesus commanded doesn't justify anyone, Christianity is a waste of time.

Yes, doing what Jesus commanded does justify a person. But not in regard to making them righteous in God's sight, but rather showing them to possess the righteousness that comes by faith, apart from works. For 'justify' has two meanings in scripture:

jus·ti·fy *​

(jŭs′tə-fī′)
tr.v. jus·ti·fied, jus·ti·fy·ing, jus·ti·fies
1. To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid: justified each budgetary expense as necessary; anger that is justified by the circumstances.
2. To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin. Used of God.

Paul is referring to the second definition in his letter to the Romans: Becoming righteous before God by having faith in God - Romans 3:22.

James is referring to the first definition in his letter: Being shown to have the faith that makes one righteous - James 2:18.

And so it is completely in error to say that one must have faith and do works of faith to become righteous in God's sight. No. Faith does that all by itself apart from works - Romans 4:6.


*https://www.thefreedictionary.com/justify