THE SABBATH

[Highway54]

Well, most western cultures give workers two days a week to rest, some for than others. And some places basically close down except for emergency services. Stores, where I have lived in Europe are closed on Sunday, for example. I think the idea of needed a day of rest is more than a legal matter, but this is not really answering the question. It is just that here aren't any interesting discussions on the site. Pretty boring indeed.

I don't think you understand the severity of it Dorothy. Under the law covenant those who violated the Sabbath were executed maam. Notice how a man who just picked up sticks on the Sabbath had to be stoned to death found at Num 15:32-36.

You mentioned Sunday, but that was not God's regulations maam. We could not pick and choose the time period we wanted to observe it, rather we had to follow God's law which stated it would be from dusk Friday till dusk on Saturday. Like I said, everyone you know would have been executed years ago if God still held us accountable to observe the Sabbath. How thankful we can be to be released from what the Bible calls the curse of the law. Gal 3:13

 

[Mungo]

I'm aware that within its ranks the Catholic church can't agree on doctrine any better than Protestants, but at this point without diving into it any further I think this is another case of the Catholic church changing it's official doctrine to cover up it's error.

The Catholic Church has not changed it's official doctrine and you have not provided any evidence that it has.
Onn the contrary I have given you authoritative statements that are consistent going back to the Council of Trent.

We can go back to the 2nd century and it's the same:
Justin Martyr
And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen (Justin Martyr, First Apology, chap 67 - approx 155AD)
And earlier

Epistle of Barnabus
Further, He says to them, Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure. [Isaiah 1:13] You perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. (Epistle of Barnabus, para 15 AD 117-138)

Ignatius of Antioch
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death (Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to The Magnesians, AD 110)

Didache
But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. (Didache – 1st century)

 

[Mungo]

No, I do not believe Catholicism is the very first church.

The church in the time of the original Apostles is the very first church.

And that was the Catholic Church

 

[Highway54]

Abolished?
Not changed?
Doesn't Sabbath mean rest?

Yes maam, I believe that is the best definition for the Hebrew word Sabat

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't think you understand the severity of it Dorothy. Under the law covenant those who violated the Sabbath were executed maam. Notice how a man who just picked up sticks on the Sabbath had to be stoned to death found at Num 15:32-36.

Do you know a church that executes people who do their wash on Sunday? Do you understand that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath?

You mentioned Sunday, but that was not God's regulations maam. We could not pick and choose the time period we wanted to observe it, rather we had to follow God's law which stated it would be from dusk Friday till dusk on Saturday. Like I said, everyone you know would have been executed years ago if God still held us accountable to observe the Sabbath. How thankful we can be to be released from what the Bible calls the curse of the law. Gal 3:13

God has not changed but he is not stuck in one culture. He speaks all languages and knows all cultures. Do you know that there are tribes that have a 5 day week? They don't even have a 6th or 7th day. Now what? You should be more flexible in the spirit or intent of the law. The Sabbath is made for man, not the other was around.

 

[atpollard]

No, I do not believe Catholicism is the very first church.

The church in the time of the original Apostles is the very first church.

An argument could be made that the Catholic Church did not exist until ROME (the empire) empowered Christianity with Civil Authority and the RCC did not exist until the Great Schism. It was a gradual slide from what Paul planted (and Luke recorded in Acts) into what it ultimately became.

[Corruption is like boiling a frog, it seems.]

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And that was the Catholic Church

Not even close.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Catholic Church has not changed it's official doctrine and you have not provided any evidence that it has.
Onn the contrary I have given you authoritative statements that are consistent going back to the Council of Trent.

We can go back to the 2nd century and it's the same:
Justin Martyr
And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen (Justin Martyr, First Apology, chap 67 - approx 155AD)
And earlier

Epistle of Barnabus
Further, He says to them, Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure. [Isaiah 1:13] You perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. (Epistle of Barnabus, para 15 AD 117-138)

Ignatius of Antioch
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death (Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to The Magnesians, AD 110)

Didache
But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. (Didache – 1st century)

Meeting on Sunday is not the issue. The Catholics deciding by some perceived authority to make it the new Sabbath observance is.

 

[atpollard]

Meeting on Sunday is not the issue. The Catholics deciding by some perceived authority to make it the new Sabbath observance is.

Since the issue of meeting on Sunday didn't die out in this topic ... I think the Catholic Church is both TAKING and being GIVEN credit for something that both predates them and was out of their control.

As I understand the chain of Historical events, when Gentiles first entered the church (so we are in the time of the Book of Acts), Jewish and Gentile Christians gathered together on the First day of the week to avoid creating unnecessary tension with the powerful (and more numerous) unsaved Jews meeting in the Temple and local Synagogues. When the Jewish authorities began to crack down on Jewish believers by putting them out of the Synagogue and Temple, it became a simple and obvious expedient to just meet with the Gentile believers that were already meeting on the First Day of the week. The first day (Lord's Day) was always important because of its association with both the Resurrection and Pentecost. It was a simple matter for expedience to become "TRADITION" and tradition to become "DOCTRINE".

... but is started out as just a practical solution to keep the peace with the neighbors. It was never anything SINISTER (as some are quick to claim).

 

[Mungo]

Meeting on Sunday is not the issue.

It seemed to be the issue for you - until I showed you were wrong.

The Catholics deciding by some perceived authority to make it the new Sabbath observance is.

"New Sabbath observance". What nonense is that you have invented now?

 

[Mungo]

Not even close.

Very close - to the point of being the same thing.

 

[Mungo]

An argument could be made that the Catholic Church did not exist until ROME (the empire) empowered Christianity with Civil Authority and the RCC did not exist until the Great Schism. It was a gradual slide from what Paul planted (and Luke recorded in Acts) into what it ultimately became.

[Corruption is like boiling a frog, it seems.]

Very difficult to make a false argument like that.
But that doesn't stop a lot of Protestants trying to make it.

 

[atpollard]

Very difficult to make a false argument like that.
But that doesn't stop a lot of Protestants trying to make it.

Who was Pope of the UNIVERSAL Church when Paul was correcting Peter and James was head of the Church in Jerusalem? The Bishopric Hierarchy and Landholdings and Clergy/Laity distinctions all came much later than the Apostolic/Book of Acts era of the early church. The RCC practices revisionist history when it denies such basic facts.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"New Sabbath observance". What nonense is that you have invented now?

I didn't invent it. As I showed you I got it right from your infallible Catholic leadership's writings. Whether or not they contradict official Catholic creed and doctrine is your problem, not mine.

So, meeting on Sunday is not the issue. Deciding that the Sabbath observance is now on Sunday is. That is a Catholic invention, not a divine or Biblical mandate.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It seemed to be the issue for you - until I showed you were wrong.

Just read all posts from the beginning. You'll see Sunday itself was never the issue for me. Changing the day of the Sabbath is.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Very close - to the point of being the same thing.

Not even remotely close.

I know you get terribly triggered when people don't like or submit to your Catholic theology and doctrine but it's very clear your Catholic traditions are not found in the Bible. For example, I have yet to have a Catholic explain why they ignore the Apostle Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians 14:26 on what to do when believers meet together. And yet you Catholics claim to be so utterly spiritually and Biblically perfect, accurate, and true. Not even close, Mungo. Not even close.

Look, you can do whatever you want, and whatever you enjoy. But do not push that stuff on us and tell us it's the way it's gotta be, because Catholic practice and tradition is clearly not Biblical.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Sabbath that was added (along with the law of Moses) until the Seed should come has been abolished.

The day of rest God gave us in the beginning is eternal and points to the rest to come.



JLB

I agree with this.
Every day is the Sabbath.
And the real Sabbath rest is to come. (after death).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Every day is the Sabbath.
And the real Sabbath rest is to come. (after death).

Or, more to the point, every day we as believers reside in Sabbath Rest. Which is why it is not necessary to keep the literal Mosaic Sabbath anymore. We have already been brought near to God in Sabbath Rest through faith in Christ, so there's no need to draw near to God in Sabbath rest that we are already in through Christ. That doesn't mean you can't do it (as the Catholics claim). It means you don't have to.

Any law that seeks to accomplish what has already been done for the believer does not have to be done. It is laid aside as obsolete and unneeded now because it seeks to do what has already been accomplished one time for all time for the believer. We know this from other more easily understood examples of law, specifically and most notably, the law of sacrifice for sin. We don't have to draw near to God through the law of sacrifice anymore because we have already been brought near to God one time for all time through the sacrifice of Christ. And so those laws are not needed now, and thus, laid aside as obsolete. That doesn't mean you can't make sacrifices! It means you don't have to. Same for the law of Sabbath rest.

 

[GodsGrace]

Believe me, friend, I do not say this with the intent to offend or flame anyone - while the CC believes it has changed the Sabbath day from the 7th to the 1st, as far as the Bible's concerned, it's still the 7th day.

Regarding the CC being the first church, Revelation 12:17 KJV says that after Jesus returned to heaven to begin His ministry of intercession as our High Priest:

"The dragon (Satan) was wroth with the woman (the church) and went to make war with the remnant of her seed (the last day church) which keep the commandments of God".​

​

A "remnant" of a thing is the last part of that thing which perfectly matches what was at the beginning of the thing, as does a remnant of carpet on a bolt of carpet or remnant of linen on a bolt of linen.

Since the CC claims to have changed God's law....and the remnant church is to be identical to the early church and keep the same law the early church kept....by virtue of their very own admission that they changed God's law they are prevented from tracing themselves back to the early church because the remnant church was prophesied to keep those same commandments as the early church. Is there a church in these last days that keep the same commandments as the early church and thus qualifies as the remnant church? Sure, I belong to it!

Do I believe there'll be catholics in heaven? Plenty! I've even had to tell ex-catholics who are convinced no catholic will be in heaven that God plainly says He "winks" when we unknowingly do things which we ought not do.

You're talking about being part of the Body of Christ of course - I believe this is what you understand to be the remnant.

I believe Christians - Gentiles - had begun celebrating the Eucharist - communion - right after Jesus died. They were known as cannibals by some. I do believe they were doing this on the first day of the week, Sunday, to celebrate the resurrection of our Lord.

If we want to understand that Peter WAS, in fact, the first Bishop of Rome, then I'd have to believe that the CC went back that far. I can't make a commitment as to how far back it goes, but I do believe it was the first church, or denomination if you will.

If so, I can accept that the CC changed to Sunday IF that's how far back we want to go.

Otherwise, we have to keep to the idea that the Apostles themselves changed the celebration day from Saturday to Sunday and keep the CC out of this.

IOW,,, I'm not sure.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, I do not believe Catholicism is the very first church.

The church in the time of the original Apostles is the very first church.

This is confusing.

If we want to say that the CC changed the day of worship,
then we have to admit that it was the first church.

Otherwise we have to say that the Apostles changed the day of worship.

WHEN do you believe the day was changed?