THE SABBATH

[atpollard]

Do you believe this is how the Church is to admistrate the Sabbath ordinace today, under the new covenant?

From his tone, I suspect he would be willing to hold their cloaks.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, but the difference being, as the church became Catholic it assigned the 1st day worship that had been being practiced since the time of the Apostles to that of a replacement Sabbath observance.

I don't understand Jethro.
But no use continuing.
If the Apostles and those that came directly after were worshipping on Sunday,it's because they WANTED to.

The Jews were thrown out of the synagogue later on after 70AD and they joined Sunday worship---but it was already going on.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't understand Jethro.
But no use continuing.
If the Apostles and those that came directly after were worshipping on Sunday,it's because they WANTED to.

The Jews were thrown out of the synagogue later on after 70AD and they joined Sunday worship---but it was already going on.

You're not getting this because you are instantly equating the early church's Sunday worship with the Catholic Sunday Sabbath. The early church's Sunday worship did not become a 7th day Sabbath replacement until the Catholics made it that. Up until then the church was meeting on Sundays for the reasons Atpollard shared in his post, not because they thought God instituted a new Sabbath day to replace the old one. It was the Catholics who later declared Sunday worship to be the new replacement Sabbath. And they openly claim they did it by their own authority.

 

[GodsGrace]

Im not saying everyday now is the Sabbath, but Saturday, the seventh day of the week has been designated for rest.


What that means to us and what that means to God may be different.

The rest to come which the seventh day of the week foreshadows, refers to the 1000 years we will reign with Christ on earth when He returns and removes His enemies, in which there will be rest and peace for one thousand years which prophetically refers to the seventh day;
this occurs after the 6000 years from Adam, or 6 “days”.

Remember a day to the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day.

But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
1 Peter 3:8

So 7000 years is 7 “days”.

The final 1000 years is the 7th day of rest.





JLB

As you must know, I know nothing about eschatology.
I understand that we rest in Jesus every day, but one day is set aside for worship in a special way.
Before the resurrection it was on the 7th day, Saturday.
Now we celebrate on the 1st day, Sunday...to celebrate the resurrection.

I believe the Apostles had already changed the day and so I don't believe the CC had anything to do with it.
(as some on this thread believe).

I'm a bit confused, and cannot clear this in my mind, that although worship is ceremonial and the ceremonial laws have been abolished....
the rest day is the 4th commandment and the commandments have NOT been abolished.

But I don't think about this too much, but cannot come to a firm understanding.
I go to church on Sunday.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe the Apostles had already changed the day and so I don't believe the CC had anything to do with it.
(as some on this thread believe).

The Apostles didn't change anything. They added that day of worship because they had to meet on Sundays because of persecution by the Jews. Later, the Catholics declared Sunday worship to be the new replacement Sabbath, even saying it was a sin to keep a 7th day Sabbath (which it is not). They openly admitted they made this declaration of their own (supposed) authority to do so.

 

[GodsGrace]

That doesn’t logically follow. Because the RCC had the power to command its members to not work Sunday and demand they meet in a building doesn’t follow that they, therefore, were the first christians and no other. Just says they had political power.

The scripture says they met and worshipped the first day of the week. This was probably convenient and not an official edict.

Maybe it wasn't an official edict,
but somehow they all decided to meet on Sunday.
It didn't just magically happen.

IOW, I believe the Apostles changed the day...
NOT the CC.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Maybe it wasn't an official edict,
but somehow they all decided to meet on Sunday.
It didn't just magically happen.

IOW, I believe the Apostles changed the day...
NOT the CC.

I’m sure the Apostles did no such formal edict. They never had that kind of political control. They were never in power.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I think it was a custom that evolved. I also don’t think the RCC changed the day as they came into being way too late, under Constantine. It was already the custom.

 

[GodsGrace]

I’m sure the Apostles did no such formal edict. They never had that kind of political control. They were never in power.

How do you suppose they started to all worship on a Sunday?
There were Christians all over, not just in Jerusalem.
??

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How do you suppose they started to all worship on a Sunday?

It started in Jerusalem as it was convenient. No edict.

There were Christians all over, not just in Jerusalem.
??

They too met when convenient.

 

[Mungo]

I don't know where you're digging up these "authoritative" ideas, but go to www.romeschallenge.com and read for yourself that the catholic church absolutely claims to have changed the Sabbath commandment to Sunday.

Romes Challenge

I'm sorry to be the one to inform you of such unsettling news, but please remember that our faith is in Jesus alone to save us, not a priesthood, not a pope, and not a system.

I found these authoirataive statements in an official Papal statement, the official Catechism of the Catholic Church and the old Catechism of the Council of Trent. Much more authoritative than magazines and newspapers.

 

[Mungo]

Exodus 16, in the Wilderness of Sin - you can find that on an ancient map.

Where in Ex 16?

 

[Mungo]

I quoted as it's written in The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine".

You're free to make up your own opinions, but none of us are free to make up our own facts.

And that said:
Question: Which day is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
So the Catholic Church has NOT changed the Sabbath to Sunday.

 

[Mungo]

wondering

In post #2 I said:

I think this is an issue that will generate more heat than light.

To which you replied:

I don't mean this to be another thread on the Sabbath - by no means.
My question is very specific and this CANNOT become a Sabbath thread because it's in CALVINISM.

It's become another endless argument with Catholic bashing thrown in.
I've said my bit. I will say no more.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering

In post #2 I said:


To which you replied:




It's become another endless argument with Catholic bashing thrown in.
I've said my bit. I will say no more.

I don't see any Catholic bashing.
I don't care for bashing and do my best to avoid it.

The question is:
How did the Sabbath change to Sunday.
Was it changed by the Apostles or by the CC?

If you notice, this thread has been changed to Apologetics.

 

[jasonc]

The shabat is always sunset Jerusalem time on Friday to sunset on Saturday.


Temples here hold shabat service

The Shul

www.theshul.org

 

[atpollard]

Maybe it wasn't an official edict,
but somehow they all decided to meet on Sunday.
It didn't just magically happen.

From post 69 (repeated since the question continues to be asked):

As I understand the chain of Historical events, when Gentiles first entered the church (so we are in the time of the Book of Acts), Jewish and Gentile Christians gathered together on the First day of the week to avoid creating unnecessary tension with the powerful (and more numerous) unsaved Jews meeting in the Temple and local Synagogues. When the Jewish authorities began to crack down on Jewish believers by putting them out of the Synagogue and Temple, it became a simple and obvious expedient to just meet with the Gentile believers that were already meeting on the First Day of the week. The first day (Lord's Day) was always important because of its association with both the Resurrection and Pentecost. A simple matter for expedience eventually became "TRADITION" and tradition eventually became "DOCTRINE". ​

​

... but is started out as just a practical solution to keep the peace with the neighbors. It was never anything SINISTER (as some are quick to claim).​

 

[GodsGrace]

From post 69 (repeated since the question continues to be asked):

As I understand the chain of Historical events, when Gentiles first entered the church (so we are in the time of the Book of Acts), Jewish and Gentile Christians gathered together on the First day of the week to avoid creating unnecessary tension with the powerful (and more numerous) unsaved Jews meeting in the Temple and local Synagogues. When the Jewish authorities began to crack down on Jewish believers by putting them out of the Synagogue and Temple, it became a simple and obvious expedient to just meet with the Gentile believers that were already meeting on the First Day of the week. The first day (Lord's Day) was always important because of its association with both the Resurrection and Pentecost. A simple matter for expedience eventually became "TRADITION" and tradition eventually became "DOCTRINE". ​

​

... but is started out as just a practical solution to keep the peace with the neighbors. It was never anything SINISTER (as some are quick to claim).​

Thanks A.
Jethro Bodine was nice enough to direct me to your above post.
I agree with all of it of course, it's history.
Did you happen to see my post no. 85?

My conflict is this:
I DO believe the CC is the first church.
Some here want to say that the CC changed the day of worship, although they don't agree it was the first church.
(it would have had to be in order to have the authority to change it.)

Those that say the CC did NOT change the day are the very ones who believe the CC was the first church.
So it's a little confusing - trying to sort it out.

I believe the Apostles changed the day even before the church was very organized.
I'd say you agree.

 

[atpollard]

I DO believe the CC is the first church.
Some here want to say that the CC changed the day of worship, although they don't agree it was the first church.

No, I do not believe that the Catholic Church is the First Church. [Not to feel bad, I don’t think any church existing holds that honor and every Christian living is part of the “invisible church” descended from that church.] I have read the book of Acts and no church existing seems to follow that model except a few heretical cults like Jim Jones.

By about the Fourth Century, the CHURCH (which was the Original Church) became respectable and gained political power and as always happens … political power corrupts the Church. That was about the time that the Original Church stopped being the church of Christ’s People and became the Church of the Clerical Hierarchy. My Baptist prejudices are probably showing, but I view WEALTHY Bishops exerting political power over a Professional CLERGY CLASS who rule the People Of God that are not fit to read scripture on their own as a VERY BAD THING and the Fourth Century birth of the Catholic Church. (Followed by increasing politicizing and greed in the church that resulted in the Great Schism over whose Kingdom was biggest and most important [begin sarcasm] exactly how Christ dreamt His church would be. [end sarcasm]

 

[atpollard]

I believe the Apostles changed the day even before the church was very organized.
I'd say you agree.

I have no idea if the Apostles played any role in the decision, as I said, it was a practical matter for Gentiles to meet on Sunday to avoid upsetting non-Christian Jews by having Gentiles in the Synagogue on Sabbath or having Jewish Christians abandon Synagogue on Sabbath to meet with Gentiles somewhere else.

However, WORSHIPING on SUNDAY does not negate or change the DAY OF REST (SABBATH) from being on SATURDAY in the early church. Paul preached in the Synagogues where he went … that was on SATURDAY (SABBATH). We Christians are free from the LEGAL requirements of the SABBATH LAW, but the early christian’s did not change the day of rest as far as I can tell. It was the FOURTH CENTURY CHURCH, which had started to gain political power and codify rules in DOCTRINES that may or may not have made an official decision to declare SUNDAY the new DAY OF WORSHIP AND REST (thus replacing the Saturday “Sabbath” as “BLESSED” in doctrine). I say ”may” because I am a Baptist that cares little for the details of what the Catholic Church may or may not have done. I care about what Scripture says we should do.