Can you continue to knowingly sin and remain a Christian?

[JLB]

Still begs the question. I agree those "in Christ" are joined to Him, but this says nothing about those who pretended to be in are not.

Please show me where Jesus refers to “those pretending to be in Christ” in the following verse.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

• If anyone does not abide in Me

Obviously for a person to remain in Christ, they must first be in Christ, as the context so plainly relates this obvious truth.

Just as a branch must be in the vine already, in order to have the ability to produce fruit.

Context:

You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
John 15:3-5


Jesus doesn’t address ”pretending to be in Christ” because a person who is not in Christ can not “remain” in Christ, because they must be “in Christ” to remain in Him.





JLB

 

[Hopeful]

There is no mention of them losing their salvation .
If you read the passage you will not find any.

God killed them.
What further testimony do you require?

 

[Hopeful]

A person is saved the moment they believe and are justified, receiving the righteousness that is from God in that moment of believing. That's how it happened for Abraham, our example of how we, too, believe and are made righteous with the righteousness that comes from God apart from the performance of works.

A person is saved the moment they hear their name read from the book of life on the last day's judgement.
Abraham's belief could have turned to unbelief at any time.
Then what would have become of him? (rhetorical question)

 

[Consecrated Life]

God killed them.
What further testimony do you require?

You do not know the difference between the body and the soul at this stage ?

 

[Highway54]

This is an important topic for Christians, as it's crucial to our Salvation. To continue in sin knowingly certainly results in a loss of one's Salvation. We must forsake that sin(s) and do our first works over by being cleansed in the blood of Jesus for the remission of sin. If we cling to that sin(s), we are fallen from grace and are considered backsliders.

Romans 6
[1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

[12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
[13] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
[14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (KJV)

Depends on the sin sir, all Christians sin every day, but there are sins listed in the Bible that clearly state that if we practice those sins we will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Every once in a great while a Christian might do one of those sins, and if they are truly repentant they can regain their relationship with God through the ransom of Christ. But if they practice any of those sins there is no redemption for them. Me I sin every time I get in a car, but really satans laws are designed to make you sin, I simply don't worry about it. But most Christians will do their utmost not to commit a serious sin. God always makes the way out for us not to commit one of those sins, but sometimes it is difficult to take the path He offers, but I have never failed to see the out when I am in that kind of position.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Abraham's belief could have turned to unbelief at any time.

Yes (Hebrews 11:15), but that does not mean he was not justified/saved the moment he believed.

Stop working for something you already have. Remain in it! That's what the exhortation of scripture is.

Stop constantly trying to be saved. Enter into the Sabbath Rest God has established for us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God killed them.
What further testimony do you require?

That doesn't have to mean they were lost.
At the very least it means they were chastised, just as all sons of God are.

 

[07/07/07]

When an alleged Christian is hardened in the bad way, its because he is a child of the Devil, a Tare sown among the wheat.

You cannot lose your salvation if you are a child of God, nor would you live like a Tare. That's why "we can know them by their fruits":

16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (Matt. 7:16-20 NKJ)

Once we are in God's hands, no one (which includes yourself) can take you out. Eternal life isn't eternal if you can perish after you get it:

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. (Jn. 10:27-29 NKJ)

When an alleged Christian is hardened in the bad way, its because he is a child of the Devil, a Tare sown among the wheat.

You cannot lose your salvation if you are a child of God, nor would you live like a Tare. That's why "we can know them by their fruits":

16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (Matt. 7:16-20 NKJ)

The problem with this theory is that you discard a believer's free will by saying that the person can never fall away. Unlike this theory, Peter gave the ingredients to make one's calling and election sure.

2 Peter 1
[4] Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
[5] And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
[6] And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
[7] And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
[8] For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[9] But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[11] For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Once we are in God's hands, no one (which includes yourself) can take you out. Eternal life isn't eternal if you can perish after you get it:

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. (Jn. 10:27-29 NKJ)

Just as with any gift in life, it can be neglected, misused, not cared for and eventually lost or stolen.

 

[07/07/07]

No man - even ourselves - can be plucked from the Father's hand. No man - even ourselves - can be plucked from Christ's hand.
What God began in a believer He will complete to the end. Sometimes God sends His people into the valley and on their own to learn something. They will enjoy sin for a season, but when the time is at hand call back His Beloved to repentance with a new knowledge and new wisdom. Pruning is involved. But like the Prodigal son there is always a way back.

Yes, those who fall way are deemed "backsliders". If a person dies in this spiritual condition, he/she would go to hell. So, it's dangerous to fall away into sin, as one may never find their way back to God like King David did. We have no record that his son, King Solomon, ever made it back to God. No doubt there are multitudes in hell right now who turned away from Jesus and never made it back, because a man is far worse than he was before he came to Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 2
[19] ... for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


But, yes, Jesus would graciously forgive anyone who has fallen away if that person has godly sorrow and repentance for their sin(s), just like the prodigal son.

 

[07/07/07]

That doesn't have to mean they were lost.
At the very least it means they were chastised, just as all sons of God are.

They were liars, and God killed them to keep sin out of the Early Church. Jesus said what would happen to liars.

Revelation 21
[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers,and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They were liars, and God killed them to keep sin out of the Early Church. Jesus said what would happen to liars.

Revelation 21
[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers,and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

When you lie what's keeping you from going to the fiery place?

 

[Hopeful]

You do not know the difference between the body and the soul at this stage ?

Yes, I do.

So the death of the vessel isn't enough evidence of God's judgement for their sin?

 

[Hopeful]

Yes (Hebrews 11:15), but that does not mean he was not justified/saved the moment he believed.

He would have been "considered" saved as long as he kept the faith.

Stop working for something you already have. Remain in it! That's what the exhortation of scripture is.
Stop constantly trying to be saved. Enter into the Sabbath Rest God has established for us.

I don't heed messages not from God, who had written..."workout your own salvation with trembling and fear." (Phil 2:12)

 

[Hopeful]

That doesn't have to mean they were lost.
At the very least it means they were chastised, just as all sons of God are.

LOL

 

[Hopeful]

You're describing an unbeliever, not a believer. To knowingly live in unrepentant, deliberate sin is what unbelievers do, not believers. Believers struggle with sin, not live in it willfully without conviction or pain of conscience.

The fall into unbelief itself is what causes a person who once believed to lose their salvation. If they were still a believer 1) the blood of Christ that they believe and trust in would keep them in a continual state of being forgiven, and 2) God won't let believers get away with sliding into a lifestyle of sin and is careful to chastise them. Eventually not being chastised for sin shows they are no longer a child of God, assuming they were one to begin with.

Sinners are unbelievers.
They don't believe...1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
Or James 4:7..."Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."
Or Rom 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed form sin."
Or Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

 

[Consecrated Life]

David , the "man after god's own heart ", fully expected God to bring his life on earth to an end for his great sins .
David was not a man ignorant to God's method, and he also knew that if God caused him to breath his last he deserved that, but that fact in no way cancelled out his salvation .
God is no respecter of persons.
If God would not cancel out David's salvation for his great sins , Adultery , Murder, Lies, neither did he cancel out the salvation of Ananias and Sapphira for their sin by virtue of bringing their time on earth to an end for their sin.

2Sa 12:13
And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The problem with this theory is that you discard a believer's free will by saying that the person can never fall away. Unlike this theory, Peter gave the ingredients to make one's calling and election sure.

2 Peter 1
[4] Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
[5] And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
[6] And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
[7] And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
[8] For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[9] But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[11] For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Just as with any gift in life, it can be neglected, misused, not cared for and eventually lost or stolen.

The fallacy rendering your exegesis unsound is "the undistributed middle". In layman's terms, you cannot "make sure" what you have no control over.

You don't call and elect yourself, Paul made that clear calling and election don't happen because of anything you do or are:

(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom. 9:11 NKJ)

Therefore, your "exegesis" is "eisegesis", reading into Peter's words what isn't there. Peter wants us to "prove to others by developing the virtues of faith, knowledge, godliness etc., that we have been called and elected by God unto salvation. We make that "fact" "sure-certain-established" in the opinion of others.

Neither Election or predestination violates our free will, because our "unfallen versions" would never choose life with anyone but God their Father. For more on that go to my site:

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? | End Time News

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2): Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood...

endtimenews.net

God's Election and Predestination of us "protects our free will choice made before the foundation of the world", from the deceptions of this fallen realm.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Yes, I do.

So the death of the vessel isn't enough evidence of God's judgement for their sin?

You are ignorant of the fact that God is no respecter of persons.
You believe that if God had ended David's earthly life for his great sins of Adultery, Murder, Lies, that he would have lost his salvation ?
And why then did not David lose both his life & his salvation for his great sins of Adultery , Murder, Lies , his sins being much more devious, evil , and protracted / CONTINUAL than the single sin of Ananias & Sapphira ?
Remember David CONTINUED in his sinful plot of Adultery , Murder, Lies for over 1 year before God forced him to confess.

 

[07/07/07]

When you lie what's keeping you from going to the fiery place?

Lying is a sin, so we must not do it if we expect to inherit eternal life.

 

[07/07/07]

David , the "man after god's own heart ", fully expected God to bring his life on earth to an end for his great sins .
David was not a man ignorant to God's method, and he also knew that if God caused him to breath his last he deserved that, but that fact in no way cancelled out his salvation .
God is no respecter of persons.
If God would not cancel out David's salvation for his great sins , Adultery , Murder, Lies, neither did he cancel out the salvation of Ananias and Sapphira for their sin by virtue of bringing their time on earth to an end for their sin.

2Sa 12:13
And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

David did not die in his sin, Ananias and Sapphira did.