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Is Matthew 24:34 grounds for skepticism?

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Many have preconceived ideas as they think with a carnal logical mind not knowing the Spiritual things of Christ in what He has already taught us as they have not the Spirit (Holy Spirit) of God within them. The carnal mind is enmity against the Spirit as it can not perceive the things of Christ, Romans 8:7-8.

There are many that call themselves a Christian, but only give lip service to the Lord as they truly have not Christ within them, especially those who give false prophecies.

2Tim 3:5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Tim 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Tim 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

There is no skepticism when one is truly Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit that teaches them all things, John 3:5-7; John 14:26.
 
I will admit that this issue makes me skeptical about Jesus. What do you say?
Since the Bible is the Word of God, information and revelation from it can/does get released at the perfect time. Throughout it, scripture says "for such a time as this" (or comparable words). We've all heard of apocalypse. God will unveil certain things during a certain time period. 😎

Look up any comparable saying to what I wrote above, for my contribution in the apologetics category.
 
I'm not quite following.
Jesus is speaking of spiritual matters in this world and how we perceive them as we walk with Him... in Him by His Spirit.
We should be looking at what He said as it pertains to every believer and every unbeliever from a spiritual perspective.
 
I just wanted to share a thought. When it uses the word "generation"; would that be a generation of mortal men, or is it possible that meant a "generation of the immortal soul's of men"?
Hi Enlightenedtruth

Well, the problem with it being the generation of some immortal beings/souls, is that there would never come a time that they would pass away. I mean, immortal does mean doesn't suffer death....right? So what kind of sign would it be to know and understand that a generation that will never die, won't be dead when these things come to pass, either?

Just my thinking on the matter.

God bless,
Ted
 
Hi Enlightenedtruth

Well, the problem with it being the generation of some immortal beings/souls, is that there would never come a time that they would pass away. I mean, immortal does mean doesn't suffer death....right? So what kind of sign would it be to know and understand that a generation that will never die, won't be dead when these things come to pass, either?

Just my thinking on the matter.

God bless,
Ted
God gives the gift of immortality; and He can take that gift away, whereby the "soul" would cease to exist at His Command. A "generation" of "souls (Angels)" who shall not pass until the Second Coming, where the tares will be separated from the wheat.
 
God gives the gift of immortality; and He can take that gift away, whereby the "soul" would cease to exist at His Command. A "generation" of "souls (Angels)" who shall not pass until the Second Coming, where the tares will be separated from the wheat.
Hey Enlightenedtruth

Sounds a bit convoluted to me in the logic, but if it seems right to you, then you should go with it. I just don't think that Jesus was talking to his disciples in code. I think he meant it just as he said it to be understood plainly. Therefore, the only ambiguity I find is 'what' generation of human beings, after all, he was talking to his disciples and he didn't generally speak to them in such hidden parables, was he referencing. What generation? This generation. The generation of the men that he was talking to... or the generation of the men that he was talking about?

And you could be on to something. I just don't see Jesus talking to his disciples in that way as to leave them without understanding. Of course, I also believe that they must have understood which generation he was speaking of. They didn't ask. However, they likely assumed he was talking about their generation and the things were going to be coming on pretty fast... but they didn't. No major accounts of wars, famines, or really any of the events that he pointed to. Just the temple being torn down in 70 A.D. matches one prophecy.

God bless,
Ted
 
Sounds a bit convoluted to me in the logic, but if it seems right to you, then you should go with it.
I have a lot of reason to believe in the "rebirth of the soul"; which is not a mainstream Christian belief. I believe Christ did speak plainly on a number of things; and yes his Disciples did fully understand.
 
All of these supposed contradictions disappear when people realize Jesus gave mankind a hands on example of how God wants us to live in this world.

He was falsed accused. Nailed to a cross while being mocked and spit on? Anyone who can't see what's wrong with that picture doesn't know the Lord very well.
 
I will admit that this issue makes me skeptical about Jesus. What do you say?
I say you fail to take into consideration that Matthew's version of the Olivet Discourse is incomplete, there's a key segment only found in Luke's version:

But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." (Lk. 21:20-24)

This is a prophecy of the siege of Jerusalem in 70AD and the end of the church age. This term "times of the Gentiles" means two things - the reign of Gentile power over Jerusalem and the Jewish people, which is clearly indicated in this passage, and it also alludes to the "desolation" part. Till this day, Jerusalem is still divided, the temple mount in particular is trampled by Arab muslims, Jews are not allowed to enter. Meanwhile, it also refers to the long church age, the gospel will be preached to all Gentile nations while Jews remain spiritually blind.

See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”(Mt. 23:28-39)
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (Rom. 11:25)

Another thing you fail to take into consideration is the "fig" reference, which is the context of this verse in all three synoptic gospels. This fig tree is a symbol of Israel and its unprofitable, fruitless state. If you abide by the hermaneutic principle and use the bible to interpret the bible, then you should realize that this is the same fig tree in the parable of the fig tree. Israel is cursed to be spiritually blind as that fig tree remains withered throughout the church age, as I mentioned above; but at the end, it will grow leaves again and bear fruit. It's all connected.

Now in the morning, as He returned to the city, He was hungry. And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again.” Immediately the fig tree withered away. (Mt. 21:18-19)
 
Hi Wheat Field

I hear ya. And there was a time in my life that I was right where you are. Who is this dude, Jesus? I was almost 40 before I came to believe in the truth of God. But let me also mention that because I've been there, I also know that we don't really understand a lot of God's word without the Spirit of God as our counselor and arbiter of truth. But then I trusted Jesus and I can tell you that a lot of those 'skeptical' places became clear.

If you do any real study up with some of the respected theologians of the past and present, then you'll find answer to your questions. But without the Spirit they may still not make sense to you. Jesus spoke of those that he personally preached to. I mean the Son of the living God, as christians believe him to be, was out teaching all over Israel for some 3 years. At one point though, he spoke directly to his disciples and said of those to whom he had been speaking to, that he spoke to them in parables. Though they be ever hearing, never perceiving. Ever seeing but never believing.

So, I hear you and where you are in your understanding of this whole issue of God and Jesus, but I would direct you to the book of Daniel, chapter 9. In it we find a prophecy. A prophecy that is specific as to time and person of the Messiah. If you take the time to follow to where the end of the period of time that the prophecy speaks of, there's only one person who was on the world scene that anyone would even think to consider was God's Messiah within 50 years either way of the date that the prophecy points to. It was written some 500 years before Jesus came. Following the conclusion of that prophecy, there can hardly be any doubt as to 'who' God was pointing to in giving Daniel that prophecy.

If you're interested I've already broken it down on another thread. https://christianforums.net/threads...s-acceptable-to-us.103090/page-2#post-1849037 posts 23 & 25.

If you'd like to discuss it some more, I'll be happy to help. All you need do is ask.

God bless,
Ted

Thanks miamited.

I do understand your point about Isaiah 6:9ff. I do accept that we humans are 'calloused' within and that this may skew our perception of what God (assuming his existence) is saying to us.

I am aware of the Daniel 9 prophecy and have studied it quite a bit. If I get a chance I will post on the thread you cited.

Have you seen Dr. Michael Rydelnik's take on it?
 
Hi Wheat Field
Have you seen Dr. Michael Rydelnik's take on it?
No. Never heard of him. I went over and listened to his message about it. Sounds pretty spot on as far as the dating of when Jesus would be here.

That's also what I believe that Jesus was referring to when he wept over the city and said, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem. How often I have desired to gather you like little chicks. If you had only known the day of your visitation. But now it is hidden from your eyes.

God bless,
Ted
 
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Yes...in Him. The "abomination which causes desolation" is the rejection of Gods' Word, which is what happened when Jesus was condemned.
The confusion disappears when we understand how the difference in how God perceives things and how man incorrectly perceives them. Calamity all around but,

they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Lk.17:28 KJV

Business as usual?

As far as I know, the abomination that causes desolation is defined in Daniel and Jesus names him when he mentions uses this phrase.

Daniel 9:27
“He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator”

Daniel 11:31
“Forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation”

We know that Antiochus IV Epiphanies put an image of Zeus in the Temple in 167 B.C. which, I believe, only partially fulfilled Daniel's prophecy.

Many I ask why you define the abomination that causes desolation as the 'rejection of God's Word'?
 
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Could it be that in the full context that Jesus was referring to the last generation that will be here on earth when He returns on the last day! The Disciples asked Jesus three questions that day as they sat with Jesus on Mt of Olives.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

That generation that Jesus spoke to on the mount would see many things that Christ said would happen in Matthew 24 especially with the destruction of the Temple in 70AD, but not the end of all those things Jesus foretold would happen before He returns. If you think about it the Gospel even today is still being preached throughout the world as many new continents and nations came to be way after 70AD. The seven trumpets have not sounded yet nor has the son of perdition taken his seat on the very Temple mount of God for a period of 3 1/2 years. Most importantly Jesus has not yet returned in the way He said He would in Matthew 24:29-31. So, in general it was not the generation in the days of the Disciples, but that of the generation of Jews in the end of days that will see all these things come to pass.

I do think this is perhaps the only way that Jesus' integrity can hold. A cursory reading of this chapter (same with Luke 21 and Mark 13) seems to result in the immediate charge that Jesus was clearly wrong. It all comes down to the question of to whom was Jesus referring to in v.34. The skeptic immediately says that it's the generation that was alive then - and specifically the disciples (either all or some - though Mark mentions Peter, James John and Andrew). After all, it is the disciples that asked him about the temple and the end of the world and Jesus is replying to them.

If we focus in on what Jesus says in Matthew 24:15-34, then it does seem that he isn't necessarily specifically addressing the disciples anymore, but any follower of him at any time now or in the future - and specifically those that live in Israel:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand). Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto YOU, THIS generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

I'm still not totally convinced by this take on Jesus' words. It is favourable to Christianity, but it's hard to see it clearly. Obviously, with Jesus talking about a future event then it's possible that language isn't able to fully convey precisely what was intended.

What do you think?
 
Well, first, I'd correct the description of Lewis as a "theologian." He was a wonderful philosopher but not, I think, a particularly good theologian.

When all the Gospel passages parallel to Matthew 24 are taken together, the apparent "issue" you've pointed out resolves. Check them out: Mark 13; Luke 21.

I have read all three - perhaps you would comment on my:

 
Hi again Wheat Field

There are actually several places where we are told a list of things that are going to happen, but the don't all necessarily follow one after the other or in any certain order. There can also be a list where some of the things are happening now and some of the other things happen later. Prophetic writings are full of this kind of revelation. So I would call your attention to Jesus' words in 24:33. And remember please, that chapters and verses are additions that we've made to God's word.

"Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door."

Now Jesus has just giving his disciples a list of things that they will see happening as the end, that they had asked him about, comes. But they also asked him three questions.

“Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Two questions: When will this happen? What will be the sign of your coming? Then the third, "and of the end of the age?"

Now, we can assume that the sign of his coming and of the end of the age, might be the same answer. But we must also understand that it might not, too. Anyway, Jesus gives them a list of things that they will be seeing happening upon the earth that will signify these things that Jesus is talking about, coming to be in real life and real time.

Now, the entire conversation starts with his disciples asking him to marvel at the site of their holy temple. I can imagine Peter sweeping his hand across the view of the building and declaring, "Look! Look at this marvelous temple where we worship your Father! See what a grand structure it is."

So to this statement that must have been something like what I've fabricated, Jesus first tells them that the temple isn't going to stand. "Don't marvel at that grand temple because in a very short time it will not be standing. And I mean there won't be one stone upon another. That's how totally it will be destroyed".

Jesus first warns them of being deceived by false prophets and false messiahs. He tells them that you will hear of war and rumors of war. But the end is still to come. So when we do hear these things, we know that the end hasn't come yet. He gets a little more detailed in the accounting of the wars. Telling them that nation will rise up against nation. Now that statement right there, tells me that Jesus isn't talking about 70 A.D. There wasn't any proliferation of nations warring with each other at that time. It was merely the destruction of a city under the control of Rome.

There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. So this isn't some mid afternoon shaking of the earth in Israel at Jesus' crucifixion. There is no record that there were some lot of famines or earthquakes at that time. Today, one might say that they have become much more common place. But there are still only the birth pangs, he tells us. It isn't the end yet.

Then he continues with his list of prophetic signs that we should see, and closes by telling them that when they see 'all' of these things, then the end is near. Right at the door, he says to them. Certainly, making the point that it is immediately eminent. Then Jesus says, "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place." And the question is 'what' generation did Jesus mean by saying 'this generation'? Is it the generation of the people that he was talking to, or was it the generation to come when the last signs are shown? In other words, once we get to where we are seeing wars all over the globe and famines and earthquakes, that generation will not pass away until Jesus returns.

I mean, I hear a lot of nations are actively involved or thinking about going to war with a neighbor nation. I know that there are nearly always places of famine around the globe. I see pictures about once every couple of months of some city or area devastated by an earthquake. So it could be this generation living today that won't pass away before Jesus' return. If we consider that the Scriptures generally use 20 years to establish one generation from another in lineage. But the lifespan of any generation should be about 70-80 years.

So I believe that we are now becoming the generation that Jesus spoke of. Oddly enough, there are other clues that would lead me to believe that it could happen in the next 100 years. Now please, I am not foretelling a day or hour, merely a season. Just calling out from the watchtower, "Keep watch! For the days are fast approaching that we should expect to see the return of our Lord."

We are hearing of wars and rumors of war. We are witnessing nation rise up against nation. We are seeing signs and wonders in the heavens. We are becoming, across the globe, as it was in the days of Noah. Jesus' return could be very close.

However, I would encourage that you spend time actually seeking after Jesus first. And I'm not asking you to make some grand life change. I'm just encouraging that you at least give it 30 seconds of your time to bow your head and ask God to show you the truth. "God, by the power of your Holy Spirit, please let me understand what you ask of me. Give me understanding of your word." Just those two sentences and feel free to add anything else that come to your mind, but at least those words before you begin seeking the answers to the questions that you are asking.

Simple, ease, won't take 30 seconds out of your life. And please don't hesitate to PM me if you'd like a more private communication.

God bless,
Ted

Nice post Ted, thanks. I do agree with your take on this - that is, it seems to be the only way to uphold Jesus as divine - that he must be talking about the generation which sees the things thus described.

I do speak to God as you describe - though of course I am speaking to the God that I am not sure exists.
 
I just wanted to share a thought. When it uses the word "generation"; would that be a generation of mortal men, or is it possible that meant a "generation of the immortal soul's of men"?

Since Jesus talks about, for example, 'when you see the abomination which causes desolation' and that he is responding to his disciples question about the end of the age, then I assume he means mortals.
 
Daniel 9:27
“He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator”
As this translation seems to say, the 'abomination of desolation WILL BE ON A WING of the temple UNTIL the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolation'.

That's honestly a pretty good placement of the muslim Dome of the Rock, which sits literally next to the temple and has been there and likely will be there until the 'decreed destruction is poured out on the desolation'.

God bless,
Ted
 
As this translation seems to say, the 'abomination of desolation WILL BE ON A WING of the temple UNTIL the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolation'.

That's honestly a pretty good placement of the muslim Dome of the Rock, which sits literally next to the temple and has been there and likely will be there until the 'decreed destruction is poured out on the desolation'.

God bless,
Ted

Presumably the temple needs to be rebuilt before the Dome of the Rock can be considered in such a way?
 
As this translation seems to say, the 'abomination of desolation WILL BE ON A WING of the temple UNTIL the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolation'.

That's honestly a pretty good placement of the muslim Dome of the Rock, which sits literally next to the temple and has been there and likely will be there until the 'decreed destruction is poured out on the desolation'.

God bless,
Ted
Surely the specifics Daniel 11:31 is germane?
“Forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation”
 

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