[__ Science __ ] one reason that abortion is acceptable to us

[Uncle J]

Is there a truth as to how the Sun got to be where it stands in the universe? Is there a truth as to why trees grow up and not down? Is there a truth about how your car came to be made?

Yep.

Ok, I'll bite. What do you know that has happened that there is no truth concerning 'how' it came to happen?

Sorry, I was focusing on the word "account" and read your question as asking if I believed there is a true story out there somewhere that describes everything.

But if you're asking if I believe there is fully accurate and true explanation for how, say the sun, came to be, then yes.

I appreciate your allowing me the opportunity to share some things that I've learned in my 68 years of learning. And I promise that I will not ask you to join with me or mention the name of Jesus. However, I'm going to start a new post on it so it doesn't get confusing with what I've written her.

Oh don't worry, it's not that I would be offended by that. I was just trying to spare you from potentially wasting your time. However you wish to proceed is fine with me.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi again GodsGrace

So, would I be correct in understanding that you don't believe God could have created all that we see in this realm of His making in six days?

God bless,
Ted

HI Ted,
God could have done whatever He wanted to do.
He's God.

I just don't believe the days are literally 6 days...
I also don't believe the universe is only 6 days old.

I think I've said this already and don't plan to really argue this with you.
It's kind of like debating whether or not water is wet.

I believe you'll have a better conversation with Uncle J .

In my humble opinion, it's just wonderful to know that the universe was created as a singularity,
that it's fine tuned, that physics could be proven by mathematics, and that the heart beats and we don't really know why, just as we don't really know what gravity is and what consciousness is although all 3 are necessary for life.

 

[miamited]

The Scriptures, that big book with some thousand pages and some 730,000 words claims to be authored by God. Paul writes that all Scripture is God breathed. We find in those Scriptures that God has given Israel a test to determine if anyone is a true prophet of God. That test is merely that if what they say comes true, then it came from Him. But if what a prophet says does not come true, that prophet shall be put to death because he has not spoken the truth from God.

Yes, one can believe that or not, but I'm hoping that after my explanation here, it will at least give you pause to question whether I'm being truthful or not.

If you have a copy of the Scriptures (bible) feel free to follow along in it. I do believe that the Holy Spirit works better through God's actual word, but that's your choice whether you choose to invest any time in my explanation.

I'm going to use the words of a man named Daniel. Now extrabiblical history, places Daniel's life about 600-500 B.C. Depending on your source, if you Google it, you'll find that the general consensus is 620-537 B.C. I do want to remind that in the B.C. period of time, the lower numbered years come after the higher years. Opposite of how the years are accounted in the A.D. period. I'm sure you know that, but for others that may read this, I think it's something to put out there.

So Daniel, who is living in the city of Babylon where he has been taken as a Jewish captive by a king named Nebuchadnezzar, has some visions and dreams. Of course we all have dreams, although I don't know about visions. But Daniel's visions and dreams seem to have been important enough to be included in God's testimony to us of the things that He has done as time marches on in this realm of His creating. However, the part of Daniel's writings that I'm going to be focusing on hasn't anything to do with visions or dreams. The account is described as Daniel being awake and aware of his surroundings and what's going on. I'm going to deal with a very short piece of the Scriptures found in Daniel's writings that we now divide in the Scriptures as chapter 9 beginning in vs. 20. As I say, if you want to check me with the bible, that's where you'll need to turn.

The Scriptures tell us that Daniel was in his room praying to God. If you read the entire book of Daniel, you'll see that that was his regular daily practice. He finishes his prayer, and much like Mary and Joseph were visited by an angel of God to speak with them; Zechariah had an angel of God visit him to tell him of the life and purpose of his son John, who is John the Baptist, Daniel was visited by an angel and he tells us that his name was Gabriel.

Gabriel tells Daniel some things that Daniel records for us. Gabriel tells him this:

“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. ”

For my purposes, I'm not going to cover all of that, but I'm just wanting to give some bit of knowledge as to the full conversation that Daniel had with Gabriel. Gabriel talks about some seventy sevens that has been established for his people (Jews) to do some things. That's also not what I'm interested in discussing with you at this time, but if you like, we can come back to it.

My starting place is the words that Gabriel said to Daniel about a specific starting point in which all of these things that Gabriel said the Jews had to get all these things done.

“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,
the ruler, comes."

The time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem...

Now let's jump back to my opening statement as to when Daniel lived. Daniel lived from late 600's to mid 500's. Why is that important? Stay tuned.

There was a decree issued in the days of Nehemiah, who lived after Daniel. If you Google him, you'll find that he was the one who wrote later about this decree that was issued. But here's my point.

Daniel died in roughly mid 500 B.C. The decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, and there were two decrees issued on the matter, but if we research the two decrees, it is the second that actually is sent out with letters of authorization to gather the lumber and take the men to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, was issued in 444 B.C. The other decree seems to be more about the temple that would be built in Jerusalem. Gabriel specifically mentions the city of Jerusalem. So we go with the decree that deals with rebuilding the city.

So, let's sit back and look at what's happened here. Daniel has been told by an angel of God that something is going to happen, that we now know didn't happen for nearly 100 years after Daniel's death. How did Daniel know this?

Do you know of anyone who can tell you with any specificity that some event is going to come about in 100 years that did? I mean, 100 years. That's a long time for a man to make a perfect guess. I don't think Jean Dixon was ever that accurate. According to Daniel, he knew this because an angel of God told him so. How did Daniel know?

Now yes, one can say, as you might, that's all made up and someone went in after the decree and back dated everything to appear as if Daniel had gotten this advance information. You can say that. That, of course, means that all of this account that Daniel is writing about is a lie. He either lived longer than we thought and back dated it and made some grand story about speaking to an angel about it. Or someone else made up a testimony with Daniel as the main character, but wrote it all, also after the decree was issued. You can say that.

But wait, there's more that come true about this prophecy that is pretty convincing as to its authenticity.

 

[Uncle J]

miamited are you aware that other religions also make claims about having accurate prophecies?

EDIT: And also, since the Book of Daniel is a Jewish writing (it's in the Ketuvim), if I find it to be so accurate to be compelling, shouldn't I convert to Judaism?

 

[miamited]

Let's go back and see what Daniel was told was going to happen at the end, or nearly the end of these 70 sevens. The countdown of the 70 sevens wasn't to begin until the issuing of a decree that was issued some 100 years after Daniel wrote these words, if one believes that the Scriptures are giving true testimony to us of this event. But what is it that was going to happen and how accurate really was the prophecy?

Well, first of all the prophecy speaks to the rebuilding of the city and tells us that it will be in troublous times. Sure enough, when the Jews were rebuilding the city, the Scriptures account that the neighboring nations were against them and they literally built with one hand holding a tool and the other a weapon. I think most people would consider that a fairly troublesome work.

But that's at the end of Gabriel's explanation of the first 7 sevens. That's 49 years and yes, it took 49 years to rebuild the city. Then Gabriel accounts for the next piece of the 70 sevens as ending at 69 sevens. Seven sevens and 62 sevens. Gabriel tells Daniel that at the end of that 62 sevens that one called the Messiah would be here. Hmmmm. If you like playing with numbers, you can move out 69 sevens from the issuing of the decree and you will come to 32 A.D. Was the Messiah here in 32 A.D. according to the Scriptures?

It's really quite amazing the accuracy of a prophecy that took some 500 years to work out from the time it was given to Daniel until we get to the end of the 69 sevens part. 500 years, and there's a prophecy that actually tells us with pretty good specificity a couple of things, in the work of God, that is going to happen upon the earth. A decree is going to be issued. That decree is not issued in the lifetime of the man who wrote about it. How did he know?

Then an event that was going to happen in 483 years (7x69) that is pretty spot on. I mean let's allow that maybe I'm off a couple of years in my calculations. Who was walking on the earth anywhere within 10 years of the end of that 483 years that anyone would think might be this great Messiah that Gabriel spoke of? Muhammed didn't come along until the 500's A.D. That's about 500 years off of the mathematics of this prophecy. Buddha? Joseph Smith? No, there's only one person that was walking the earth within 50 years of the end of this prophecy that it might be alluding to.

Now yes, you can say it's all made up or that some old Jewish guy was smarter than any of us and was able to make up a story and throw it in the Scriptures after the facts to make it appear as being some accurate prophecy, but that would mean that you don't appreciate the zeal with which God's people Israel have guarded their work in producing the Scriptures. If someone, after the Messiah was here, worked it all back and wrote up an account sometime after 32 A.D.? Friend, the Jews would be up in arms to deny it!!!

So, I spoke of you before as being someone that seems to be a reasonable thinking person. What's your verdict? Is it all made up? Or is it that somehow this guy Daniel guessed all these events and dates?

God's word is true.

I hope I haven't wasted too much of your time, but I'm praying for you.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi Uncle J

miamited are you aware that other religions also make claims about having accurate prophecies?

EDIT: And also, since the Book of Daniel is a Jewish writing (it's in the Ketuvim), if I find it to be so accurate to be compelling, shouldn't I convert to Judaism?

I'll play. Give me one that took 100 years to fulfill and was fulfilled pretty much spot on as it is recorded in this other religion that you speak of.

No, you'd be wasting your eternity converting to Judaism. The Jews were raised up by God to perform certain and specific tasks that He needed done. First of all, and Paul writes about this, they were entrusted with the very oracles of God. God tasked them with doing the actual writing on parchment or scroll all that He was going to reveal to us. Look God wasn't going to just drop a book down into the desert somewhere for someone to find to reveal Himself to us. He used His people that He raised up as a promise through Abraham. A people that were His people to do His bidding.

Now they were rebellious and stiff-necked and hard-hearted much like any of us. But they did accomplish that task set before them of recording for all mankind the very oracles of God. And God oversaw that work.

They also were given the authority and task of providing the final sacrifice for sin. I was in a discussion some few days ago about whether or not the Jews killed Jesus? Yes! They did. They were supposed to. That's also included in this prophecy.

“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy

That man whose name I cannot mention that the Jews put to death did exactly that. When they killed him, they provided the final sacrifice for sin that brings us everlasting righteousness. They canonized the Scriptures in about 300 B.C. So they sealed up vision and prophecy. That everlasting righteousness put an end to sin and atoned for wickedness for all those who would believe. Yes, the Jews were mere puppets in the hand of a master puppeteer (speaking in simple human terms) in completing the work that God had for them to do. NO! They weren't particularly faithful to Him in following the law. But then keeping the law doesn't save anyone. It is merely the way in which we know that we are sinners. The law wasn't given that we'd ever be able to keep it. Not at all! The law was given to convict us of sin. In fact, God's word tells us that we've all broken the law. Why would the Jews not be included in that number?

There's an account in the Scriptures of a king of Israel who destroyed a certain part of the Scriptures. The Jews, those folks that I told you were zealous for the Scriptures, sat down and wrote it all out again, the Scriptures tell us 'word for word'. No, you don't want to convert to Judaism. But I promised not to mention the name of the one that you do want to turn to, if your heart is ready.

It's up to you. Get yourself a copy of the bible and look into what I've written. Study this singular prophecy and tell me how those words came to be in the Scriptures. How they could be so perfectly accurate and deal with a period of time of 500 years. Find an explanation that suits you as to how a man who claims to have lived 100 years before a prophecy that he wrote could be as accurate as this prophecy seems to be.

You see, friend. That's why I believe that God is true. That He knows the end from the beginning. That we live in a realm of existence that He created in a very, very short period of time as He also tells us is the truth. When I consider how Daniel could have known all this and been so spot on 500 years later... there has to be a God!

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi again Uncle J

BTW, would you consider that it might have been for God's good purpose that it took some 1500 years to write the Scriptures? But that's for another talk.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Uncle J]

So, I spoke of you before as being someone that seems to be a reasonable thinking person. What's your verdict? Is it all made up? Or is it that somehow this guy Daniel guessed all these events and dates?

Like I said, all the major religions have "accurate and fulfilled prophecies", so I don't see this as much different. Plus, it's a Jewish book, so if I found what you posted compelling, logically I should become a Jew.

As far as Jesus being the Jewish Messiah, it takes me back decades ago to when I had a Jewish roommate in college and he walked me through all the ways in which Jesus didn't meet the criteria. He showed me in the Jewish scriptures how their Messiah is supposed to be a man (not God) and a warlord who would defeat all of Israel's enemies on the battlefield and usher in a Jewish Kingdom with world peace. Obviously Jesus didn't do any of that.

And yes, I'm aware that Christians believe Jesus will do those things after the Second Coming, but there is nothing about that at all in Jewish scriptures. As my roommate put it, that's why Jews are still Jews and not Christians.

I hope I haven't wasted too much of your time, but I'm praying for you.

Meh, it's not like I was doing much today anyways.

I'll play. Give me one that took 100 years to fulfill and was fulfilled pretty much spot on as it is recorded in this other religion that you speak of.

Not being a student of religious prophetic works, I don't know of any off the top of my head. But I'm not sure why the time frame is the key factor here.

No, you'd be wasting your eternity converting to Judaism.

That makes no sense. You're basically arguing "See how accurate this Jewish book's prophecies were? That's why you should be a Christian!"

The Jews were raised up by God to perform certain and specific tasks that He needed done. First of all, and Paul writes about this, they were entrusted with the very oracles of God. God tasked them with doing the actual writing on parchment or scroll all that He was going to reveal to us. Look God wasn't going to just drop a book down into the desert somewhere for someone to find to reveal Himself to us. He used His people that He raised up as a promise through Abraham. A people that were His people to do His bidding.

Now they were rebellious and stiff-necked and hard-hearted much like any of us. But they did accomplish that task set before them of recording for all mankind the very oracles of God. And God oversaw that work.

They also were given the authority and task of providing the final sacrifice for sin. I was in a discussion some few days ago about whether or not the Jews killed Jesus? Yes! They did. They were supposed to. That's also included in this prophecy.

Again, none of that makes sense to me. That's really the best plan a "god" could come up with? It couldn't deliver this supposedly vital message in a more clear and efficient manner?

It's up to you. Get yourself a copy of the bible and look into what I've written

I've read it a few times, which actually played a key role in me choosing to not be a Christian. Same thing with the Quran, Book of Mormon, and some Buddhist material.

When I consider how Daniel could have known all this and been so spot on 500 years later... there has to be a God!

Muslims effectively make the same argument about the Quran.....how else could this book have this accurate info unless it came from God?!? Of course the answer is, there are lots of ways that could happen.

But overall Ted, it's not prophecies or the lack thereof that made me decide Christianity wasn't for me. It was when I distilled the Bible down to an overall outline of events and viewed it as a whole that I concluded it makes zero sense, especially as a plan executed by a "god". But when I looked at it as a mish mash of Jewish history, apocalyptic works, and poetry, with a Christian ending awkwardly tacked on at the end, the Bible made a lot more sense to me.

 

[Uncle J]

Hi again Uncle J

BTW, would you consider that it might have been for God's good purpose that it took some 1500 years to write the Scriptures? But that's for another talk.

God bless,
Ted

No, because that makes zero sense for a "god". But as an artifact of the evolution of religious belief over time, it most certainly does.

 

[miamited]

Hi GodsGrace

Maybe if your heart is set to grow the Kingdom of God, you might pray for our friend Uncle J

I just don't believe the days are literally 6 days...
I also don't believe the universe is only 6 days old.

Oh, I get it, you're wanting me to know that you know there's a place in the Scriptures where God says that His days are as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. Now consider that since He writes it both ways, that His point is merely that He isn't constrained by time as we are. He isn't writing that to us to let us know that He's playing some game with time in His creation account.

But...What we find written in the Genesis account is God trying to tell us something. God starts out in His revelation of Himself to us, telling us how all that we see around us was created by Him. How we got to be here. Why we should worship Him. So, I think that any reasonable person can see that these two matters aren't related.

Further, God describes each day as being one evening and one morning. Now sure, a day for man may seem as a thousand years to God and a thousand years as a day, but throughout those thousand years you'll have a lot more than one evening and one morning. Right? I mean, that does make sense to you doesn't it? So, while I understand your effort here to say that I've said that the universe is only 6 days old, I didn't say that. I said that the universe is now, about 6,000 years old.

May I ask you if you know what determines the length of a day on the earth? And 'why' you don't believe that when God says 'day', numbers that day, and defines that day as being one evening and morning, you don't think it's accurate for us as we understand days. You see, God's writing this account to you. He knows that you know, what a day is. God is wiser than you or I could ever hope to imagine to be, and surely if he meant to infer that it was several thousand, million or billion years before or between the days... you don't think He's wise enough to convey that to you in some way other than trying to confuse you and write that He did it in six days? Even repeats it in the law!

As I've said, there's a real possibility here that we don't know the same God. And that my God is more powerful and wiser than yours. (yes, I know that sounds like kindergarten taunt, but consider that it could be true)

Although, in all sincerity, we are all given a measure of faith. We all grow in that faith as we seek after and follow after him. So, for this discussion, I choose to go with Paul's admonition that we be mindful of those whose faith is weak. And I don't say that to annoy or demean you in any way. Look, I'm traveling the same road. There are things about God's word and all that He has done that I often have a hard time understanding. Took me a long time to understand the parable about the wine skins.


God bless you,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi Uncle J

No, because that makes zero sense for a "god". But as an artifact of the evolution of religious belief over time, it most certainly does.

Well, I promised not to proselytize and so if that's what you believe, then that's what you believe.

However, just for humor, were you able to come up with one of those prophecies from the other religions that you spoke of, or is that just a talking point that you've heard and have gathered into your arsenal?

Oh, and why God took 1500 years to write it is really the opposite of what you propose. God's word took 1500 years to complete because of prophecy. I mean a lot of God's prophecies take hundreds of years to fulfill. It also took 1500 years so that we wouldn't think that some great wise man like Joseph Smith came up with it all while he was high on peyote or something. I mean it's 1500 years of writing all about the same being. All pretty in line with the historical account as we know it to be, at least as far back as Moses.

Further, God's work reveals to us the beginning of this realm in which we live and pretty much culminates, except for some writings after the gospel accounts that instruct believers in how they are now to live, because its end is that guy whose name I won't mention. And there is also the writings of the Revelation account that describes for us the things that are going to be happening all the way to the end of this realm.

So it took 1500 years for all of that to be laid out for us. Then Messiah spoke and said, "It is finished!"

God bless,
Ted

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi GodsGrace

Maybe if your heart is set to grow the Kingdom of God, you might pray for our friend Uncle J

I pray that everyone might come to know God.
But it's in the hands of the Holy Spirit.
Some persons are pliable, flexible, and willing to listen.
Some, like Uncle J are willing to hear it but it sounds like he's heard it all before and we leave him in God's hands although it's nice to speak with him.
Some get upset to just hear the word GOD, and so I back off.

Oh, I get it, you're wanting me to know that you know there's a place in the Scriptures where God says that His days are as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day.

No, if I had intended that I would have posted it.
It's simple Ted.
I don't take the entire bible literally. It wasn't meant to be taken literally.
It's not a science book or a history book.
It has science in it and it has history in it, but that's not the point of its being written.
It's a book about the relationship God has with His people - all humankind.
God revealed Himself over a span of many years....and He revealed Himself in different ways for different ages/times.
I said you could believe what you may because I don't really like discussing this.
We'll never agree and I'm not here to dissuade you or try to change what you believe.
The beginning of Genesis is an incredible work. It was written to teach us something. To reveal God to us in a specific way - as the Creator.
Whether or not snakes spoke is irrelevant.
Whether or not it took six days is irrelevant.
What is relevant is that God showed us how everything began, how we had a good relationship with Him and how it was broken and why we have a marred nature to this day.

Now consider that since He writes it both ways, that His point is merely that He isn't constrained by time as we are. He isn't writing that to us to let us know that He's playing some game with time in His creation account.

God didn't write the OT.
Men did under the inspiration of God.
If you don't see the difference in that, there's not much more to be said.
As you know, I don't like to carry on page after page.
Men were inspired or illuminated by God.
God did not sit down and write the OT.

But...What we find written in the Genesis account is God trying to tell us something.

Agreed !

God starts out in His revelation of Himself to us, telling us how all that we see around us was created by Him. How we got to be here. Why we should worship Him. So, I think that any reasonable person can see that these two matters aren't related.

I agree with you but I don't know which 2 matters you're speaking of.

Further, God describes each day as being one evening and one morning. Now sure, a day for man may seem as a thousand years to God and a thousand years as a day, but throughout those thousand years you'll have a lot more than one evening and one morning. Right? I mean, that does make sense to you doesn't it? So, while I understand your effort here to say that I've said that the universe is only 6 days old, I didn't say that. I said that the universe is now, about 6,000 years old.

I understand what you said Ted.
I just can't agree that the earth is 6,000 years old.

May I ask you if you know what determines the length of a day on the earth? And 'why' you don't believe that when God says 'day', numbers that day, and defines that day as being one evening and morning, you don't think it's accurate for us as we understand days. You see, God's writing this account to you.

God is not writing the account.
This is something very important to understand.
What if one day you find that some proof is given that shows the earth to be 4 billion years old.
Are you going to lose your faith?

He knows that you know, what a day is. God is wiser than you or I could ever hope to imagine to be, and surely if he meant to infer that it was several thousand, million or billion years before or between the days... you don't think He's wise enough to convey that to you in some way other than trying to confuse you and write that He did it in six days? Even repeats it in the law!

As I've said, there's a real possibility here that we don't know the same God. And that my God is more powerful and wiser than yours. (yes, I know that sounds like kindergarten taunt, but consider that it could be true)

Although, in all sincerity, we are all given a measure of faith. We all grow in that faith as we seek after and follow after him. So, for this discussion, I choose to go with Paul's admonition that we be mindful of those whose faith is weak. And I don't say that to annoy or demean you in any way. Look, I'm traveling the same road. There are things about God's word and all that He has done that I often have a hard time understanding. Took me a long time to understand the parable about the wine skins.


God bless you,
Ted

Must go Ted.
Tomorrow...

 

[Uncle J]

Well, I promised not to proselytize and so if that's what you believe, then that's what you believe.

I appreciate that.

However, just for humor, were you able to come up with one of those prophecies from the other religions that you spoke of, or is that just a talking point that you've heard and have gathered into your arsenal?

I've read several, but that was decades ago. That's why I can't describe any in any detail off the top of my head.

One interesting case I remember was in a documentary. It was about a little girl in India who, as soon as she began talking, started describing people, places, events, names etc., all of things she'd never seen. Eventually someone heard of this and took her to a village that was pretty far away that seemed to match her descriptions. As soon as the little girl arrived, she knew people's names, could make her way around the village, knew its history, etc. And it turned out there had been a young girl in the village who died about the same time the mother of the girl in the documentary was pregnant.

So obviously the Hindus saw that as a clear example of reincarnation. After all, how else does one explain how the girl knew so much about a place and its people that she'd never been to or heard of?

Oh, and why God took 1500 years to write it is really the opposite of what you propose. God's word took 1500 years to complete because of prophecy.

Um...if God is responsible for the prophecy, then it's entirely circular. IOW, God has to do it over 1500 years because of the rules the same God set up.

Further, God's work reveals to us the beginning of this realm in which we live and pretty much culminates, except for some writings after the gospel accounts that instruct believers in how they are now to live, because its end is that guy whose name I won't mention. And there is also the writings of the Revelation account that describes for us the things that are going to be happening all the way to the end of this realm.

A lot of religions claim the same thing....to reveal how and why things are the way they're now, and to tell us how it will all end up.

 

[miamited]

Hi Uncle J

One interesting case I remember was in a documentary. It was about a little girl in India who, as soon as she began talking, started describing people, places, events, names etc., all of things she'd never seen. Eventually someone heard of this and took her to a village that was pretty far away that seemed to match her descriptions. As soon as the little girl arrived, she knew people's names, could make her way around the village, knew its history, etc. And it turned out there had been a young girl in the village who died about the same time the mother of the girl in the documentary was pregnant.

What religious book will I find that written? How long ago was it? Before 1000 A.D.?

I mean really, you think a little girl having a dream somewhere in the world is the same as a recorded document thousands of years old that works out some 500 years later? I really wasn't aware that we were discussing reincarnation.

Really?!?!?!?!?

Like I say, if that's what you want to go with, hey, fine with me. But I can't imagine anyone agreeing that your anecdotal account of a girl having a dream, even though I agree that the story sounds pretty amazing, to a prophecy that took 500 years to fulfill pretty much to the day that it was prophesied to be fulfilled.

Do you know her name? Is there a religious book I can find that holds the account and claims that what she is doing is about some religion that's being spread around the town/city/state/country? I mean, honestly, this is no different than someone telling about their NDE. It's just a one off anecdotal story and, as far as I know, it's never been the basis of some religion. You said that other 'religions' have such prophecies.

Now you can duck if you want to. I mean, there is a WWW that you could surely find an account of great prophecies of other religions that have been fulfilled. That surely wouldn't take to long. You can Google the name of Daniel of Babylon and you'll get pages and pages of information on the topic.

But all you've got is a little girl with an anecdotal story about a vision/dream that she had.

ok

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi GodsGrace

Some get upset to just hear the word GOD, and so I back off.

Which is why I asked for permission to share the account with him.

No, if I had intended that I would have posted it.

Oh then your post to me about the universe being 6 days old was a typo, then? My apologies. The numbers matched and so I figured you were referencing the passage I mentioned. I'm sorry.

Whether or not it took six days is irrelevant.

Well, see, I have some doubts about that claim. I believe it does make a difference to God that we believe what He tells us, but I would agree that that may only be my understanding. Maybe you're right and God doesn't care whether we believe him or not.

God did not sit down and write the OT.

Yes, God is the author and just as He used the Jews to complete His great plan of our salvation, He used the pen of men to write down His words. What Paul refers to as the 'oracles of God'.

What if one day you find that some proof is given that shows the earth to be 4 billion years old.
Are you going to lose your faith?

No, if that were true I would have already given up on my faith. I can find dozens of 'proofs' that the earth is billions of years old everywhere...except the Scriptures.

I trust them.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi again GodsGrace

God didn't write the OT.
Men did under the inspiration of God.
If you don't see the difference in that, there's not much more to be said.
As you know, I don't like to carry on page after page.
Men were inspired or illuminated by God.
God did not sit down and write the OT.

OH, I'm all clear on 'how' we got the Scriptures. But I'm curious. In making these statements is that supposed to infer that you then don't believe the account written down for us in the opening of Genesis? Or that the men who wrote it didn't know what a day was?

And you're free to stop whenever you reach your limit.

God bless,
Ted

 

[WIP]

volution is a lie

But, in denial of God's truth, we teach that the universe and the earth and all that is on it has existed for millions and billions of years. That allows us to make up all these ideas.

[regarding the Cambrian] What if all of that is a lie?

One thing that I will always stand behind is that being in error and lying are two entirely different things. Expressing a statement, assertion, opinion, or theory that turns out to be incorrect or not completely correct, does not constitute a lie. A lie is deliberate deception. I might think that the scientific community has it wrong but that does not mean they are lying. I wish people would stop making false accusations like that.

I've said it many times. What science does is try to explain the world around us from our lens. That may be true or it may be in error but it is not a lie until it's purpose is to deceive and for us Christians to accuse them of lying is breaking the commandment about false accusation (Exodus 20:16).

 

[miamited]

Hi WIP

Thanks for the heads up. I don't think I ever accused any one of being a liar. I think my statement was that the theory of evolution is a lie. But you're right. It isn't done with any malice or forethought or intent to defraud. It just isn't true, which tends to be, in my thinking, a lie. Yes, it will ultimately be found to be based on faulty scientific assumptions and methodology. Not because any man wants to lie to anyone, but because they are in error in deriving their conclusions from the evidence that they study.

Again, thanks. And my sincere apologies if it was taken that I was accusing anyone of the act of lying. It's like the Scriptures claim: They are darkened in their understanding.
"For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened."

We also find this act of 'darkening' hearts in God's word to us about why a lot of Israel doesn't yet believe in Jesus as their Messiah. The Scriptures tell us that in part, the darkening of their understanding is that the gospel would go out with force unto the gentiles.

Also in the account of Pharoah in his dealing with Moses. The account begins with Pharoah himself refusing to release the Hebrews. But as we read further along in the list of plagues, we come to the place where that changes and then becomes God darkening his understanding.

How this works in the human mind, I have no idea. So, please, if anyone thinks that I hate science or scientists, that isn't my position or understanding. Their foolish hearts have merely become darkened and turned away from the truth. But it isn't something that they are necessarily conscious of within their own thinking.

There's also the part of the Scriptures where God does say that He is sending upon the earth a great delusion. Now, many discuss 'what' that delusion might be concerning. And I'm not necessarily declaring that all the false talk about the operation of the creation is the delusion God is referring to. I'm just saying that it could be.

I mean, let's look at the numbers. If, what God's word is telling us, and I am correct in accepting it just as it tells us, that we ultimately find out after the cleansing of the earth that yes, God did it in the span of human time that is enclosed in six pretty normal regular 24 hour days, then a whole, whole, whole bunch of people have been deceived. I think most would consider, if what I'm saying turns out to ultimately be the truth of the creation of this realm of God's work in which we live, I think most would refer to it as a great delusion.

At this point, I often point out that the Scriptures tell us that God is going to do it again. Peter writes to us that this earth is destined to burn up in fire. The Revelation tells us the present heavens will be rolled up like a scroll. And Behold! I am making all things new. Both in the heavens and on the earth. We're going to get to witness just how fast God can create an entire universe of existence. And I will guarantee you that if a scientist sets out to study the new earth and heavens that God creates, some few thousand years after He creates this new one, they're going to find the same evidence and come to the same incorrect conclusions that there's just no way this was all made 6,000 years ago. Rocks will still be rocks and they'll still have the same halos and elemental makeup. The stars will still be lightyears away from us, and they'll be scratching their heads as to how we could possibly see them pretty much as soon as God sets them in their place.

Until then, we live in a time that God's word tells us that those without faith in Him will have darkened hearts and will not know the truth.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Uncle J]

Hi Uncle J
What religious book will I find that written? How long ago was it? Before 1000 A.D.?

I mean really, you think a little girl having a dream somewhere in the world is the same as a recorded document thousands of years old that works out some 500 years later? I really wasn't aware that we were discussing reincarnation.

Really?!?!?!?!?

Like I say, if that's what you want to go with, hey, fine with me. But I can't imagine anyone agreeing that your anecdotal account of a girl having a dream, even though I agree that the story sounds pretty amazing, to a prophecy that took 500 years to fulfill pretty much to the day that it was prophesied to be fulfilled.

Do you know her name? Is there a religious book I can find that holds the account and claims that what she is doing is about some religion that's being spread around the town/city/state/country? I mean, honestly, this is no different than someone telling about their NDE. It's just a one off anecdotal story and, as far as I know, it's never been the basis of some religion. You said that other 'religions' have such prophecies.

Now you can duck if you want to. I mean, there is a WWW that you could surely find an account of great prophecies of other religions that have been fulfilled. That surely wouldn't take to long. You can Google the name of Daniel of Babylon and you'll get pages and pages of information on the topic.

But all you've got is a little girl with an anecdotal story about a vision/dream that she had.

ok

God bless,
Ted

Oh my. Ted, I think we got our lines crossed somewhere.

I didn't post that description of the reincarnation story because I found it compelling or because I believe it. I posted it to support what I'd said earlier, namely that all religions have their version of prophecies, miraculous dreams/visions, unexplained events, revealed advanced knowledge, etc., that they point to as evidence that their beliefs are true.

I hope that makes sense.

As far as prophecies from other religions, like I said earlier it's been decades since I looked at any, so if you're interested all I can suggest is to do what I did....go look. The main thing I remember about them is that their believers are just as confident as you are about their accuracy and divine origin.

Finally, it's important to remember another thing I posted to you earlier in this thread. Prophecies, accurate or not, were not at all a factor in my decision to not be a Christian. As I explained, it was mostly due to how the general outline of Christianity's story made no sense to me, and how when I sought clarification and answers from Christian leaders and the like, I found their answers completely unsatisfying (and they got just as frustrated with me).

Hopefully that clears a few things up.

 

[Uncle J]

One thing that I will always stand behind is that being in error and lying are two entirely different things. Expressing a statement, assertion, opinion, or theory that turns out to be incorrect or not completely correct, does not constitute a lie. A lie is deliberate deception. I might think that the scientific community has it wrong but that does not mean they are lying. I wish people would stop making false accusations like that.

I've said it many times. What science does is try to explain the world around us from our lens. That may be true or it may be in error but it is not a lie until it's purpose is to deceive and for us Christians to accuse them of lying is breaking the commandment about false accusation (Exodus 20:16).

Very good point and very well put.

There's a very big difference between "I think they're wrong" and "They're all lying".