I have a question for a Post-Trib advocate

[MisterE]

John 14
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

When do we go to the Father's house? I am of the pre-trib persuasion and believe that we go to the Father's house at the time of the pre-trib Rapture.

 

[JLB]

John 14
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

When do we go to the Father's house? I am of the pre-trib persuasion and believe that we go to the Father's house at the time of the pre-trib Rapture.

Christians, those who are in Christ, go to heaven when we die;
to our Father’s house.

However, we can plainly see what Paul taught about the Resurrection and Rapture.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

• We who are alive and remain… refer to those who will be raptured.
• Those who are asleep… refer to those who will be resurrected.

We see that both will occur at His coming.


Next, we see that both those who are raptured, and those who are resurrected will be caught up together to be with the Lord.

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17


These are the first two things that occur at the coming of the Lord.


The third thing we will discuss after you respond to this post.





JLB

 

[MisterE]

Christians, those who are in Christ, go to heaven when we die;
to our Father’s house.

However, we can plainly see what Paul taught about the Resurrection and Rapture.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

• We who are alive and remain… refer to those who will be raptured.
• Those who are asleep… refer to those who will be resurrected.

We see that both will occur at His coming.


Next, we see that both those who are raptured, and those who are resurrected will be caught up together to be with the Lord.

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17


These are the first two things that occur at the coming of the Lord.


The third thing we will discuss after you respond to this post.





JLB

Thank you for responding JLB.

Let me clarify my initial question. Jesus is going to a place to prepare dwelling places for the believers. And then, he will come again and take you to be with me (in my Father's house). When does Jesus come again and take believers to his Father's house? This is not a reference to when a believer dies, or is that what you are saying?

 

[RandyK]

John 14
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

When do we go to the Father's house? I am of the pre-trib persuasion and believe that we go to the Father's house at the time of the pre-trib Rapture.

There is no Pre-Trib Rapture, in my view, although Dispensationalism has been popular in America for quite some time now. Darby introduced his Pre-Trib system back in around 1830, and many who were intrigued with end-times Prophecy found in Darby someone who systematized Futurism for today.

I agree with Darby's sense of a return of God to Israel, but I don't see Pre-Tribism anywhere in the Scriptures, although I suppose you can read it into various passages that speak of the fact Christians are to be excluded from God's Wrath.

Jesus said that he was going to prepare a place for us to be with God and with him. He did that work at the Cross. We now have a place prepared for us.

And now, as the Gospel message goes out, many are choosing membership in this community of Saved People. We will have entrance into Heaven with God, and access to the New Earth when it comes.

But the resurrection of the saints, and our return with them at Christ's Coming is shown to take place *after* the tribulations of Antichrist who persecutes the Church. And what Paul taught about the coming of the Lord from heaven originates from Daniel 7, where the Son of Man descends from heaven to defeat the Antichrist.

So this is my Postrib view. You can do with it what you will.... The resurrection/Rapture of the Church will take place, as I see it, in the twinkling of an eye. We will be caught up, spiritually, to obtain our new immortal bodies, and then instantly return with Christ to establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

The fact we are caught up and given new immortal bodies allows us to say that we will then be members of God's household forever. We will forever dwell with Him in His house, which is the place of favor with Him.

That is, his "house" is not a physical house, but rather, a placement with God wherever He is, in heaven or on earth. We have a "room" with God the moment we get Saved, and the moment we receive immortal bodies. It's just that when Christ comes again, and we receive immortal bodies, our placement will be completed in the eternal city of God.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Christians, those who are in Christ, go to heaven when we die;
to our Father’s house.

However, we can plainly see what Paul taught about the Resurrection and Rapture.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

• We who are alive and remain… refer to those who will be raptured.
• Those who are asleep… refer to those who will be resurrected.

We see that both will occur at His coming.


Next, we see that both those who are raptured, and those who are resurrected will be caught up together to be with the Lord.

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17


These are the first two things that occur at the coming of the Lord.


The third thing we will discuss after you respond to this post.





JLB

I am in agreement with you. The rapture occurs at thr Second Coming.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Thank you for responding JLB.

Let me clarify my initial question. Jesus is going to a place to prepare dwelling places for the believers. And then, he will come again and take you to be with me (in my Father's house). When does Jesus come again and take believers to his Father's house? This is not a reference to when a believer dies, or is that what you are saying?

When Jesus comes again it is the Second Coming and an end to this world.

 

[Consecrated Life]

There is no Pre-Trib Rapture, in my view, although Dispensationalism has been popular in America for quite some time now. Darby introduced his Pre-Trib system back in around 1830, and many who were intrigued with end-times Prophecy found in Darby someone who systematized Futurism for today.

I agree with Darby's sense of a return of God to Israel, but I don't see Pre-Tribism anywhere in the Scriptures, although I suppose you can read it into various passages that speak of the fact Christians are to be excluded from God's Wrath.

What would be God's purpose in unleashing Satan on believers when He is unleashing Satan on a world of unbelievers to the end that all who have denied Him cannot be allowed to believe ?

2Th 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[JLB]

Thank you for responding JLB.

Let me clarify my initial question. Jesus is going to a place to prepare dwelling places for the believers. And then, he will come again and take you to be with me (in my Father's house). When does Jesus come again and take believers to his Father's house? This is not a reference to when a believer dies, or is that what you are saying?

On the last day, at the end of the age.

Remember the rapture comes after the resurrection.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16

 

[MisterE]

On the last day, at the end of the age.

Remember the rapture comes after the resurrection.

Which Resurrection are you referring to?
When does this Resurrection happen?

Thank you

 

[MisterE]

When Jesus comes again it is the Second Coming and an end to this world.

But at the Second Coming Jesus does not return to his Father's house but lands on Mt Olives and shortly thereafter he rules from Jerusalem.

 

[JLB]

Which Resurrection are you referring to?
When does this Resurrection happen?

Thank you

The Resurrection of the dead in Christ.

The Resurrection of the dead in Christ happens at His coming.


But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:23-24


The Lord destroys the antichrist at His coming.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

 

[JLB]

I am in agreement with you. The rapture occurs at thr Second Coming.

Yes sir.


The Rapture does indeed occur at the second coming of Christ.

He appears at His coming; His appearing is at His coming.

And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.
1 John 2:28

At His coming He will destroy the antichrist.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


Jesus Christ will personally destroy the antichrist by the brightness of His coming.




JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

John 14
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

When do we go to the Father's house? I am of the pre-trib persuasion and believe that we go to the Father's house at the time of the pre-trib Rapture.

We either believe what man says or we believe that which has already been written.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

But at the Second Coming Jesus does not return to his Father's house but lands on Mt Olives and shortly thereafter he rules from Jerusalem.

After the 1000 year Reign of Christ on Earth, (which occurs after the first Resurrection, which is the Resurrection of believers) a new heaven and new earth comes down out of the Father and the old passes away. Thus, Christ's Word will be fulfilled.
A return question. We know the Resurrection occurs at the Second Coming. Where is Scripture is it ever stated that there are TWO Returns of the Lord to earth? For that is what the "rapture doctrine" is stating.
Jesus returns, then leaves, then returns again. That would be a "third coming".

 

[RandyK]

What would be God's purpose in unleashing Satan on believers when He is unleashing Satan on a world of unbelievers to the end that all who have denied Him cannot be allowed to believe ?

2Th 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

A couple of points....
1) God "unleashed Satan" on Jesus. And Jesus said that we would suffer the same fate in our earthly existence. I wouldn't call it "God unleashing Satan on us," but you get the point?

2) The book of Revelation shows Satan attacking Christians in the last days, during the Reign of Antichrist. Is God schizophrenic, not unleashing Satan on us today, but unleashing Satan on other Christians later? No.

3) God said His Wrath is not designed for Christians. Persecution of Christians God allows--it is not His "Wrath."

4) Finally, there is no Pretrib Rapture "escape" in Scriptures. Yes, there are times when God allows Christians to survive and escape to live another day. But there is no *Pretrib* escape in Scriptures.

 

[RandyK]

I am in agreement with you. The rapture occurs at thr Second Coming.

I'm not hostile to Pretribbers--Dispensationalism has some powerful points. I too believe that God will save Israel. I too am a Futurist.

But until 1830 there was no real Pretrib School in the Christian Church. And there is a reason for that. There was no Pretrib Teaching in the Bible, and nobody saw it for many hundreds of years!

Pretribbers read back into the Bible what was never there. They see the exhortation to "always be ready" as a theology of Imminence.

But it was never meant to be taken that way. We are always to be ready, morally and spiritually, because Christians are always to live right. There is nothing there about "Christ can come today."

And so, Pretribbers, believing "being ready" meant that Christ can come "at any time," began to project back into history the false notion that the Bible teaches a Pretrib Rapture.

It was never taught though because it simply wasn't in the Scriptures. Darby invented it.

 

[Consecrated Life]

A couple of points....
1) God "unleashed Satan" on Jesus. And Jesus said that we would suffer the same fate in our earthly existence. I wouldn't call it "God unleashing Satan on us," but you get the point?

You believe that Satan is as free to operate on earth in 2024 as God will allow Him to operate in His future coming Wrath ?

 

[RandyK]

You believe that Satan is as free to operate on earth in 2024 as God will allow Him to in His future coming Wrath ?

I was tongue in cheek in using *your characterization* that persecution of the Church by the Beast is "God's Wrath." It isn't. The persecution of the Church is something Jesus predicted would be our experience until the Kingdom comes. It is an honor to be hated for being good--not a shame.

The Revelation depicts Wrath as coming against the forces of Antichrist for persecuting the Church. God is not sending Christ to visit His Wrath upon His own People!

Those in the Revelation who are persecuted and martyred by the Beast are honored and praised--not condemned as having "missed the Rapture." You seem to want to twist things around?

 

[MisterE]

After the 1000 year Reign of Christ on Earth, (which occurs after the first Resurrection, which is the Resurrection of believers) a new heaven and new earth comes down out of the Father and the old passes away. Thus, Christ's Word will be fulfilled.
A return question. We know the Resurrection occurs at the Second Coming. Where is Scripture is it ever stated that there are TWO Returns of the Lord to earth? For that is what the "rapture doctrine" is stating.
Jesus returns, then leaves, then returns again. That would be a "third coming".

Here are the characteristics of the two phases of Christ's return. As you can see, these returns have nothing in common. No matter how you slice it, there are "TWO Returns":

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. vChrist judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Here are the characteristics of the two phases of Christ's return. As you can see, these returns have nothing in common. No matter how you slice it, there are "TWO Returns":

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. vChrist judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

Friend, there are not two Returns. There are two RESURRECTIONS. Read Revelation 19 and 20. The "first return" which "pre-trib" Christians "see" in the Holy Scriptures is simply describing the FIRST RESURRECTION of the Church, which occurs at the singular Second Coming described in Revelation 19.
This topic exemplifies why Sola Scriptura is a false doctrine. One would think that if the Apostles ever taught two Second Comings to the Church that it would have been a staple doctrine in the first and second century Church Fathers; but it is nowhere to be seen.