I have a question for a Post-Trib advocate

[MisterE]

We have radically different views of this. It is, however, highly speculative, since we aren't given much on the Millennial Age, perhaps because our focus is really on this age.

My contention is that the Millennial reign of Christ has a lot of information in the OT and Gospels. We know that in the Millennium people are born and die. Your position doesn't allow for this truth. Your position has ALL glorified saints entering the Millennium.

This question exposes the impossibility of the Post Trib position until it can answer this question. The Rapture can not happen at the end of the Trib as this question demonstrates. You have to have mortals entering the Mill.

PreTrib answers this question. There is no speculation needed to answer this question. If only glorified believers enter the Mill, such a position needs to show that it is not impossible to hold this position.

 

[RandyK]

My contention is that the Millennial reign of Christ has a lot of information in the OT and Gospels. We know that in the Millennium people are born and die. Your position doesn't allow for this truth. Your position has ALL glorified saints entering the Millennium.

Here it seems that you're trying to speak for me? This is *not* my position! I do *not* believe that all glorified saints are who enter the Millennium! I just want to be clear about what I actually believe, regardless of whether you think my position is consistent or not.

I agree with you that there is much material on the Millennial Kingdom in the Bible. But from my perspective, the details are very sketchy. So I try not to be too dogmatic about it.

This question exposes the impossibility of the Post Trib position until it can answer this question. The Rapture can not happen at the end of the Trib as this question demonstrates. You have to have mortals entering the Mill.

As I said before, I do have mortals enter the Millennium. Perhaps I didn't say this to you, or perhaps I didn't share enough information? See post #36.

Those who are mortal and alive in this age, who survive the Battle of Armageddon, enter directly into the New Age, just as those who lived in the OT era entered directly into the NT era. There is no complete die-off in the present era before the next age begins.

PreTrib answers this question. There is no speculation needed to answer this question. If only glorified believers enter the Mill, such a position needs to show that it is not impossible to hold this position.

Unless you represent my position properly we cannot discuss your question. I see nothing inconsistent in my position, and I do have non-glorified people enter into the Millennial Age. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else?

 

[RandyK]

You seem to be unaware that the " Reign of Antichrist" will be a most welcomed period of butterflies. rainbows and peace for the "WHOLE WORLD" at first anyway , according to God's Word:

Rev 13:3
........... and all the world wondered after the beast.
So If The whole world is celebrating and rejoicing at the coming of the beast WHERE ARE THE CHRISTIANS ?

I get this a lot. The Bible often uses what we might call "hyperbolic statements" regularly. They are really generalizations that zero in on a particular context and produce a general picture, rather than exact statistics. There are lots of examples of this in the Bible.

For example, when the Scriptures speak of the Flood covering the entire earth we may or may not deduce that the entire *globe* was covered with water. However, since the word "earth" can refer, in a non-scientific era, to all the land within visual distance, the statement may actually only indicate that the whole *land* within visual distance was covered with water.

Or if an enemy nation was said to be "completely destroyed," sometimes the implication is only that the enemy was *completely defeated,* rather than *totally annihilated.*

So when the Revelation says that the "whole world" wondered after the Beast, what it may mean is that people *throughout the world,* and *in every nation,* wondered after the Beast. There may only be a predominance of people throughout the earth who wish to follow the Beast rather than imply that literally everyone in every nation followed the Beast.

In reality, we already know from the context that not everybody followed the Beast, because there were believers who refused to follow the Beast! There are Christians who are martyred precisely because they refused to follow him! So clearly, not all *literally* followed and worshiped the Beast!

The people on earth today who have heard the Gospel but not accepted Christ are still able to hear again the Word and be saved .
You seem to be unaware that God has declared that the opportunity for people on to reconsider will one day end.

I'm not unaware of your belief that people will stop being able to believe in the Gospel in the era of Antichrist's rule. I just don't believe it is biblical, and I quoted you Scriptures to show you why.

The Gospel ministry is here until the "very end." That is what the Scriptures say. Just because many people generally harden their hearts so that they choose to never be open again does not mean that the *whole earth* follows suit. Again, you're taking a general, hyperbolic statement and apply it literally. Many people across the earth will harden their hearts, but certainly not all.

God's Word declares that this opportunity for those who at first resist the beckoning of the Lord ,to still come to Him another day , WILL BE NO MORE.

2Th 2:6-12
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time....
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[MisterE]

Those who are mortal and alive in this age, who survive the Battle of Armageddon, enter directly into the New Age, just as those who lived in the OT era entered directly into the NT era. There is no complete die-off in the present era before the next age begins.

The problem you have here is that the Rapture happens at the end of the Trib. So these morals will be raptured at the end of the Trib. No matter how you cut it, the Post Trib position can not answer how mortals enter the Mill. You just can't say my position has mortals going into the Mill without explaining how they miss the Rapture.

I very well may have you mixed up with another member, but I still say that your position does not answer the question of mortals entering the Mill. Are you saying that at the end of the Trib, those who survive Armageddon enter the Mill in mortal bodies. If this is your position, then you will need to revised what the Rapture is.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I'm not unaware of your belief that people will stop being able to believe in the Gospel in the era of Antichrist's rule. I just don't believe it is biblical, and I quoted you Scriptures to show you why.

Why are those spoken of in God's Word "Damned" for not believing , IF THEY ARE STILL ALIVE ?
With active ongoing evangelism taking place all around the world, why are you and me given the chance to believe on another day , but these are damned for their unbelief with no chance to repent tomorrow ?

2Th 2:6-12
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Consecrated Life]

In reality, we already know from the context that not everybody followed the Beast, because there were believers who refused to follow the Beast! There are Christians who are martyred precisely because they refused to follow him! So clearly, not all *literally* followed and worshiped the Beast!

So by what language does the statement " Them that dwell on earth" exclude anybody ?
Are you saying the distinction of identifying the Lord's own as being separate from the crowd is not made at least 100 times or more in scripture ?
Why no mention of them at the very final climax of God's plan ?

Rev 13:14
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Tools
Rev 13:15
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

[RandyK]

So by what language does the statement " Them that dwell on earth" exclude anybody ?
Are you saying the distinction of identifying the Lord's own as being separate from the crowd is not made at least 100 times or more in scripture ?
Why no mention of them at the very final climax of God's plan ?

Do you think that "them that dwell on earth" excludes Christians who are martyred by the Beast? You think Christians who live on earth do not "dwell on earth?"

Generalizations are made *all the time* in Biblical Prophecy.

 

[RandyK]

Why are those spoken of in God's Word "Damned" for not believing , IF THEY ARE STILL ALIVE ?
With active ongoing evangelism taking place all around the world, why are you and me given the chance to believe on another day , but these are damned for their unbelief with no chance to repent tomorrow ?

2Th 2:6-12
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians 2.6-12 is just as valid for today as it will be in the Reign of Antichrist. People are making their eternal decisions all the time. They will also do so in the time of Antichrist when people choose to commit to him. This does not mean that all people who incline to the wrong are completely committed to it.

The Bible is speaking of those who fully commit to Antichrist--they will be damned. But the Bible does *not* say that everybody on earth will fully commit to the Antichrist--just that there will be people everywhere on earth who will do so, and be damned.

You are claiming far more than the passage indicates. It is a generalization--not a statement that is completely universal...obviously. You really need to take into consideration the intent of the passage, along with its specific context, rather than making gross suppositions.

The message is to assure believers in that time that what people do is part of God's plan, not to frustrate the purpose of the Gospel to save people, but rather, to ease those who don't want to be frustrated by failure. God is giving the world a chance to show what it is made of when it chooses to live apart from God's word.

 

[RandyK]

The problem you have here is that the Rapture happens at the end of the Trib. So these morals will be raptured at the end of the Trib. No matter how you cut it, the Post Trib position can not answer how mortals enter the Mill. You just can't say my position has mortals going into the Mill without explaining how they miss the Rapture.

You have jumped to conclusions about what I believe, and about how consistent it is, before even showing me why you think it is inconsistent! You are just *now* showing me what your complaint is, so how can you claim that I've ignored this or that point?

It isn't a problem to me at all! I believe mortals will enter into the New Age of the Millennium simply because Armageddon will not destroy everybody on earth! Maybe 1/3 or 1/4 of the world will be blown up in a nuclear war. Entire cities will be annihilated. But perhaps 2/3 of the earth will survive!

This is not illogical at all! If many people died in WW1 and in WW2, and there were still people alive to survive in the post-war world, why do you think it is inconsistent for people to survive the Battle of Armageddon, which I believe is a world-wide nuclear war, and enter alive into the New Age of the Millennium?

Yes, Christians will be Raptured in the middle of this Battle, actually bringing it to a conclusion, I think. But the number of genuine Christians may be quite low, percentage-wise.

How many genuine Born Again Christians who know Christ and live for him do you think there will be during the Reign of Antichrist? Most Christians today on earth are purely Nominal Christians, and only know God from afar.

I don't believe they will be Raptured to heaven and glorified with new immortal bodies. Nominal Christians will remain on earth to hear the Gospel in the New Age, and find Christ for real!

How many believers, who truly followed God, were Raptured in Elijah's day? Oh, that's right--only one was Raptured! And at that time, God said that only a few thousand were really following God in caves!

I very well may have you mixed up with another member, but I still say that your position does not answer the question of mortals entering the Mill. Are you saying that at the end of the Trib, those who survive Armageddon enter the Mill in mortal bodies. If this is your position, then you will need to revised what the Rapture is.

I don't need to revise anything. It is your view that misinterprets what I believe. I'm sorry you got me confused with another, but I'm trying to straighten your position about me out now.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

What would you have us believe then?
Do you believe Catholicism is true? Or what?

The Orthodox Church is kinda an in between, from a western point of view, between the Catholic viewpoint and the Protestant viewpoint.
In Orthodoxy, the Holy Scriptures are inseparable from the Holy Church. The ENTIRE CHURCH is inspired of God through the Holy Spirit. In everything she does, the Church is inspired. The Church's Doctrines are passed down through Apostolic Succession via Sacred Tradition which is both written (Holy Scriptures) and Oral. In fact, Holy Scripture IS Sacred Tradition in Orthodoxy.
Furthermore, authoritative writings are not limited to the Canon of Scripture. For example, not all of the known writings of the Apostles were included in the Canon. That is because the Canon was created under very specific criteria. A document, to be included, had to have been written by an Apostle or a close associate of an Apostle. It had to conform to the existing Dogma of the Church, and it had to be central to the Gospel. We have several documents that fulfill the first two criteria but do not fulfill the last.
That is a brief statement on the issue. But, I would add also that one has but to look at the fruit of five hundred years of Sola Scriptura to see that it is heresy. There are literally tens of thousands of fragmented sects of Protestant Christianity due to Sola scriptura. Under Sola scriotura, every Christian is his own pope. The idea does nothing but cause chaos and confusion, which of course, God is not the author of.

 

[RandyK]

The Orthodox Church is kinda an in between, from a western point of view, between the Catholic viewpoint and the Protestant viewpoint.
In Orthodoxy, the Holy Scriptures are inseparable from the Holy Church. The ENTIRE CHURCH is inspired of God through the Holy Spirit. In everything she does, the Church is inspired. The Church's Doctrines are passed down through Apostolic Succession via Sacred Tradition which is both written (Holy Scriptures) and Oral. In fact, Holy Scripture IS Sacred Tradition in Orthodoxy.
Furthermore, authoritative writings are not limited to the Canon of Scripture. For example, not all of the known writings of the Apostles were included in the Canon. That is because the Canon was created under very specific criteria. A document, to be included, had to have been written by an Apostle or a close associate of an Apostle. It had to conform to the existing Dogma of the Church, and it had to be central to the Gospel. We have several documents that fulfill the first two criteria but do not fulfill the last.
That is a brief statement on the issue. But, I would add also that one has but to look at the fruit of five hundred years of Sola Scriptura to see that it is heresy. There are literally tens of thousands of fragmented sects of Protestant Christianity due to Sola scriptura. Under Sola scriotura, every Christian is his own pope. The idea does nothing but cause chaos and confusion, which of course, God is not the author of.

Nonsense. NT Scriptures, as accepted by Protestants, divide the Church? No, what divides the Church, according to Paul, is egotism. It is the ambition of those who want power in the church, to be leaders with control over their congregation.

What divides the Church are not different denominations, but rather, the attempt to unify the Church organizationally under only a few power-hungry figures whose pride in their tradition trumps Scripture.

Paul argued that there are separate fields under different administrators. He admitted that there were numerous leaders, none of them competing for primacy, supremacy, or exclusivity. All of us can do our own separate thing and serve the same Christ. That was Paul's argument.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Nonsense. NT Scriptures, as accepted by Protestants, divide the Church? No, what divides the Church, according to Paul, is egotism. It is the ambition of those who want power in the church, to be leaders with control over their congregation.

What divides the Church are not different denominations, but rather, the attempt to unify the Church organizationally under only a few power-hungry figures whose pride in their tradition trumps Scripture.

Paul argued that there are separate fields under different administrators. He admitted that there were numerous leaders, none of them competing for primacy, supremacy, or exclusivity. All of us can do our own separate thing and serve the same Christ. That was Paul's argument.

First, I didn't say that the Scriptures divide the Church. I said the doctrine of Sola scriptura divides the Chuch. It gives those "egoists" the legitimacy to create their own versions of Christianity.
St. Paul certainly did not argue that everyone could have their own version of "the truth". Sacred Dogma is inviolate in the Church and with good reason, otherwise, Gnosticism would still be in the Church. Otherwise, the Trinity Doctrine would just be one of many. Yet, in the Protestant world, that is exactly the case isn't it? Forms of gnosticism exist in certain Protestant sects and Monarchian Modalism, Arianism and other mangled forms of Christology infest the Protestant churches.
Is Christian Doctrinal Dogma up to the individual? Really?

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Nonsense. NT Scriptures, as accepted by Protestants, divide the Church? No, what divides the Church, according to Paul, is egotism. It is the ambition of those who want power in the church, to be leaders with control over their congregation.

What divides the Church are not different denominations, but rather, the attempt to unify the Church organizationally under only a few power-hungry figures whose pride in their tradition trumps Scripture.

Paul argued that there are separate fields under different administrators. He admitted that there were numerous leaders, none of them competing for primacy, supremacy, or exclusivity. All of us can do our own separate thing and serve the same Christ. That was Paul's argument.

One other observation. You tell me what Paul said, but how do you know what Paul said save by thr fact that the Holy Church preserved his words and passed them down to you? In fact, the Church said...
"These documents are genuinely Paul's and these over here aren't"....
How did the Church know? By Sacred Oral Tradition.
A really good example of that is Marcion from middle of the second century. He tried to pass off his own heavily redacted Canon as the true documents of.the Apostles. His claims were rejected and he was excommunicated.

 

[RandyK]

First, I didn't say that the Scriptures divide the Church. I said the doctrine of Sola scriptura divides the Chuch.

Nor did I say that's what you said. I said that the Scriptures *that the Protestants believe in,* which is Sola Scriptura, is what you claimed divide the Church.

It gives those "egoists" the legitimacy to create their own versions of Christianity.

No, Sola Scriptura places preeminent authority in what the canonical Scriptures teach, which focus on recognized theological sources in history--it does not discount other sources that may exist. It only focuses on something we should all agree on, and discount anything that contradicts them.

St. Paul certainly did not argue that everyone could have their own version of "the truth".

This also I did not say. You changed what I said so that you, and everybody, would reject it. Everybody would reject the idea, among Christians, that there is other "truth" besides Christ!

What I said was that Paul recognized there were other fields--other territories of work that God had appointed administrators, or authorities, over. The Pope was just one. Archbishops existed over other "fields." Each was allowed to establish their own traditions--not different "truths!"

Sacred Dogma is inviolate in the Church and with good reason, otherwise, Gnosticism would still be in the Church. Otherwise, the Trinity Doctrine would just be one of many. Yet, in the Protestant world, that is exactly the case isn't it?

Christians are always going to be divided to some extent because there are goats mixed in with the sheep, chaff mixed in with the wheat. Nominal Christianity allows in all kinds of excesses in the interest of bringing people to truth--they are not always mature in the truth!

The Protestant world is subject to the same weakness as the Catholic, Orthodox, and Separatist Churches.

Forms of gnosticism exist in certain Protestant sects and Monarchian Modalism, Arianism and other mangled forms of Christology infest the Protestant churches.
Is Christian Doctrinal Dogma up to the individual? Really?

You can mischaracterize Protestant "Sola Scriptura" all you want. But you are just arguing with yourself. Represent it properly and we can have a conversation.

 

[RandyK]

One other observation. You tell me what Paul said, but how do you know what Paul said save by thr fact that the Holy Church preserved his words and passed them down to you? In fact, the Church said...
"These documents are genuinely Paul's and these over here aren't"....
How did the Church know? By Sacred Oral Tradition.
A really good example of that is Marcion from middle of the second century. He tried to pass off his own heavily redacted Canon as the true documents of.the Apostles. His claims were rejected and he was excommunicated.

I'm aware of Marcion. And I have no problem with the early traditions of the Church and the Church Fathers. What made you think I did?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Generalizations are made *all the time* in Biblical Prophecy.

So since we know they are not Christians. what group of people is being sent strong delusion straight from God ?
And what is this delusion ?
And what is God's purpose in deluding them ?

2Th 2:6-12
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[Consecrated Life]

Why are those spoken of in God's Word "Damned" for not believing , IF THEY ARE STILL ALIVE ?
With active ongoing evangelism taking place all around the world, why are you and me given the chance to believe on another day , but these are damned for their unbelief with no chance to repent tomorrow ?

2Th 2:6-12
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians 2.6-12 is just as valid for today as it will be in the Reign of Antichrist. People are making their eternal decisions all the time.

There is no mention of belief or unbelief in Anti-Christ as the criteria for those God says He will damn in His Word.:
2Thessalonians 2:6-12
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God's stated lone qualification at this juncture is that they, "believed not the truth" .

Your claim that those Christians today who failed to believe the truth of the Gospel first time hearing it are eternally damned displays a spiritual understanding of salvation that is inches deep and miles wide .

 

[RandyK]

There is no mention of belief or unbelief in Anti-Christ as the criteria for those God says He will damn in His Word.:
2Thessalonians 2:6-12
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God's stated lone qualification at this juncture is that they, "believed not the truth" .

Your claim that those Christians today who failed to believe the truth of the Gospel first time hearing it are eternally damned displays a spiritual understanding of salvation that is inches deep and miles wide .

You must be talking about somebody else. You are not accurately presenting what I believe. So knock it all you want, but it's not what I said or believe.

Where did I say "first time?" You added that so that you could misrepresent what I said and then attack it.

 

[Consecrated Life]

You must be talking about somebody else. You are not accurately presenting what I believe. So knock it all you want, but it's not what I said or believe.

Where did I say "first time?" You added that so that you could misrepresent what I said and then attack it.

You equated belief in "anti-Christ" to a person today making an " eternal decision" by failing to believe the truth of the gospel the first time hearing it .
Let me help you remember:

2Thessalonians 2:6-12
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians 2.6-12 is just as valid for today as it will be in the Reign of Antichrist. People are making their eternal decisions all the time. They will also do so in the time of Antichrist when people choose to commit to him. This does not mean that all people who incline to the wrong are completely committed to it.

The Bible is speaking of those who fully commit to Antichrist--they will be damned.

 

[RandyK]

So since we know they are not Christians. what group of people is being sent strong delusion straight from God ?
And what is this delusion ?
And what is God's purpose in deluding them ?

2Th 2:6-12
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Anybody who commits to following separation from God and living independent of God by default enters into a delusion that God allows. The delusion that is available is not only self-deception, but even more, Satanic deception.

God gives people the right to make independent judgments, along with the consequences they bring. To choose other than God's word is to choose for a delusion. The purpose from God's perspective is to show the futility of living by one's own independent rules in God's Kingdom.