How can churches balance tradition with the evolving role of women in society and the church?

[for_his_glory]

What matters the most is that whether a man or a woman be a Pastor they first need to be called of God and anointed by the Holy Spirit in order to teach the word of God. Just because one goes to seminary for training to be a Pastor does not mean they have been called of God.

 

[jasonc]

Here's another aspect that I think bears some consideration. I was talking about this subject with a neighbor, who is also a member of the neighboring more conservative Lutheran Brethren denomination church and he shared about a time when he brought this up while speaking with a female pastor of a local Methodist church. He told her that he doesn't believe women should be in pastoral positions and her reply was, "Neither do I. But men are not filling those roles so what do we do?"

I served on the call committee for our church when our former pastor left. I can tell from first-hand experience that available pastors are hard to come by. There are a lot of churches struggling to find pastors and many of our local churches have to resort to other means like sharing pastors with one or more other churches but even that can be inadequate and difficult to make happen. My church is part of a 2-part parish and was part of a 3-part parish for decades before where we shared one pastor. It took us over 3 years to find the pastor we have now.

So what do we do when men are not filling these roles to serve? How many of us men that are posting here in this discussion are stepping up, getting qualified, and taking on the role of pastor? This is part of the reason I have decided to accept the offer of training for laypersons from the St. Paul Lutheran Seminary to help fill in for pulpit supply on Sundays when our pastor needs to be away, but that doesn't necessarily solve the problem because pulpit supply is not a pastor's only responsibility.

So, if women aren't allowed and men aren't willing, what do we do? Stop meeting for worship? Isn't that what Hebrews 10:24-25 warns against?

not all are called .

I'm not afraid to but no one runs to be a pastor .in fact the opposite they run from the call .never met a pastor who felt the call but didn't rebel first and God not make them miserable until they listened .


would you willingly :

be called 24 seven and expected to answer to help
fix the church ,now the lawn ,paint etc
teach Sunday school.on top of the scruitiny in your life .be expected to put members before your own ,yes many church goers seem to require that .I try not to expect my pastor to always be there and respond .he has four kids he adopted .

 

[jasonc]

let's be honest
Thomas county ga. there are more churches with cemeteries there then in my county with a population triple that size .

if a church falters it's not that hard to drive to another .

where Jaci lived was with in a mile of two churches with cemeteries .if I go out to a two mile radius that quadruples . you can't tell me that God called a man to build start a church across the street from another .

if my church went south I can easily find a good one . I church hopped .I decided not to anymore .it goes on even in tiny towns .

 

[Rodger]

As society evolves, so does the role of women in every sphere, including the church. How can churches stay true to tradition while also empowering women to step into leadership roles? Should the church adapt its stance to reflect cultural shifts, or is it essential to preserve traditional views on gender in ministry? I'd love to hear how others think we can balance these two important aspects.

So, what you are proposing is that the Church change the Bible directions so as to be able to do what we want to do.

1 Timothy 2:12–14.......
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."

1 Timothy 3:1-2......
"This is a true saying, if a Man desire the office of a bishop, HE desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach".

In spite of the fact that it seems more and more fashionable in our day to say that women may be pastors, the Bible is clear that pastoral leadership is restricted to biblically qualified men.
Thus, women are not to hold the office of pastor, but neither are they to perform these particular functions of a pastor over men in the church.

This idea of women Pastors in the church is total rebellion against the Word of God and is nothing more than a product of the "feminist" agenda.

NO! Women should not pastor a Christian church and those that do are in open rebellion against God.

 

[Rodger]

Well asked, WIP. In my own household, I prefer the only spiritual authority to be the Comforter. Often He speaks to Lori about things I understand less, and in order for me to do right, I must listen to her and do as she says.

1 Timothy 2:12, which states that women should not have authority over men.

 

[Rodger]

But, what if the husband is not of God and leads his family down a bad path leading his family into worldly desires?

1Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

If the husband refuses to turn back to God then how is he sanctified by his wife

1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
1Co 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

At what point do you think that the Freedom of Choice comes in?

I think you are suggesting that a husband can/does lead his wife into sin.

What about Abigail and Nabal? Nabel treated David harshly but Abigail did not follow his lead. Perhaps even more significantly, “she did not tell her husband Nabal” what she was doing.

And there was Queen Esther. Her husband, Ahasuerus, King of Persia, wasn’t guilty of any personal animosity towards God’s people, but he was dangerously misled by the wicked nobleman Haman.
When it came right down to it, she chose to fear her Maker rather than man.

Consider the wife of Achan. Achan was an Israelite serving in Joshua’s army. Contrary to God’s express command, he held on to some loot he had taken from the sack of Jericho and buried it secretly in his tent. His whole family, including his wife, must have witnessed this treacherous and selfish act. Unfortunately, not one of them had the courage to contradict him or call him to account. The result? The entire household suffered the terrible penalty of Achan’s disobedience. They were all put to death by stoning.

JUst giving something to think about on a very challenging topic.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

As society evolves, so does the role of women in every sphere, including the church. How can churches stay true to tradition while also empowering women to step into leadership roles? Should the church adapt its stance to reflect cultural shifts, or is it essential to preserve traditional views on gender in ministry? I'd love to hear how others think we can balance these two important aspects.

Traditionally, in the early church, women played a critical role in minitries, several women were named in Rom. 16 - Pheobe, Junia, Julia, Priscilla, Pheobe was a deaconess of Cenchrea, and she was entrusted with the Romans letter, the most theological work. Even in Jesus's ministry, many women followed and sponsored him. Today's evangelical church has deviated from that practice, more limits on women across the board, even though more women than men attend church services and actively engage in church activities. So the real shift is not women "entering leadership roles", but quite the opposite, women are pigeonholed into women into women's and children's ministries

Today's "gender roles" can be traced back to the two world wars when generations of men were sent off to battles; naturally and consequently, women entered the work force to fill up their posts, that wasn't really a choice or some kind of satanic foul play. After the war, the soldiers went back to their posts, and those working women were fired from their jobs and rushed into marriage, that's when this "gender role" theology was invented, that women were homemakers, men were breadwinners, even though women had been breadwinners during the war; and along with their job, their property rights, women weren't even allowed to apply for a credit card under her own name until the 70s. The feminism movement in the 60s was simply a pushback, a reasonable demand for equal right to work and property.

The church's reaction to that, unfortunately, was doubling down on the "gender role" theology by diminishing women's role in the ministry, that women are inferior to men and only good for breeding. Some particular passages such as 1 Tim. 2:8-15 are often quoted to justify their misogynistic view, that is a huge error. Paul wrote that as a response to a specific scenario, his primary purpose was to keep church services in order, to cut off disturbance or distractions. If you disagree with the speaker and you have something to say, you either wait for your turn or talk with the speaker in private, it was never meant to shut up and shut out women.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

1 Timothy 2:12, which states that women should not have authority over men.

Then why was sister Pheobe, who was DEACON (ISV) in the Cenchrean church, given authority over men in the Roman church?

I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea, that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever business she has need of you; for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also. (Rom. 16:1-2)

 

[JLB]

As society evolves, so does the role of women in every sphere, including the church. How can churches stay true to tradition while also empowering women to step into leadership roles? Should the church adapt its stance to reflect cultural shifts, or is it essential to preserve traditional views on gender in ministry? I'd love to hear how others think we can balance these two important aspects.

God is calling the Esther’s to come forward and take their place.

 

[jonathanbrickman0000]

One of the patterns I have observed, is that traditionalists find women easier to curse, and men easier to glorify in their sin, regardless of rightness and wrongness. This is just one of the unpleasant human flesh characteristics, and it has many consequences.

But I have sat for one woman evangelist preacher whom, if the Spirit were willing, I would have spent much time following, for the profound quality of the Word of God delivered through her. But she was visiting from quite far away, it would have been very disruptive to His work given to me. I have witnessed others of excellence as well.

 

[JLB]

One of the patterns I have observed, is that traditionalists find women easier to curse, and men easier to glorify in their sin, regardless of rightness and wrongness. This is just one of the unpleasant human flesh characteristics, and it has many consequences.

But I have sat for one woman evangelist preacher whom, if the Spirit were willing, I would have spent much time following, for the profound quality of the Word of God delivered through her. But she was visiting from quite far away, it would have been very disruptive to His work given to me. I have witnessed others of excellence as well.

Yes, God has raised up many mighty women of God over the years.

The role of the husband wife relationship in the home has not changed, however it’s a delicate balance in ministry.

Most of the women God used mightily were single with a few exceptions.

Maria Woodworth Etter ended up losing 6 children until she answered the call of God on her life.

She is considered the Grandmother of the Pentecostal Movement.

Kathrun Kuhlman was another powerful woman of God.


God is raising up many mighty women of God in this season.




JLB

 

[Rodger]

Then why was sister Pheobe, who was DEACON (ISV) in the Cenchrean church, given authority over men in the Roman church?

I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea, that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever business she has need of you; for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also. (Rom. 16:1-2)

Excellent question.

Paul’s reference to Phoebe as “our sister” indicates that she was a member of the Christian church and his sister in Christ.

Then his designation of her as a “deacon” = the Greek word used here is "diakonos" which means “servant”. So with that grammatical understanding, and with Pauls qulifications in 1 Timothy we can then understand that she held an official position within the church that she was someone who was known to serve the church faithfully.

She only mentioned one time and Perhaps she ministered to the sick, helped the poor, and aided widows and orphans in the manner of Tabitha.

Maybe she ministered to strangers and travelers in the manner of John’s “elect lady” (2 John 1).

Paul himself was a beneficiary of Phoebe’s kind servant’s heart. Whatever Phoebe’s precise role in the church, the inclusion of her name in Romans 16 is a testimony to her character and but it does not validate the position of a "deacon" so as to place a doctinal stance on it.

 

[for_his_glory]

At what point do you think that the Freedom of Choice comes in?

I think you are suggesting that a husband can/does lead his wife into sin.

What about Abigail and Nabal? Nabel treated David harshly but Abigail did not follow his lead. Perhaps even more significantly, “she did not tell her husband Nabal” what she was doing.

And there was Queen Esther. Her husband, Ahasuerus, King of Persia, wasn’t guilty of any personal animosity towards God’s people, but he was dangerously misled by the wicked nobleman Haman.
When it came right down to it, she chose to fear her Maker rather than man.

Consider the wife of Achan. Achan was an Israelite serving in Joshua’s army. Contrary to God’s express command, he held on to some loot he had taken from the sack of Jericho and buried it secretly in his tent. His whole family, including his wife, must have witnessed this treacherous and selfish act. Unfortunately, not one of them had the courage to contradict him or call him to account. The result? The entire household suffered the terrible penalty of Achan’s disobedience. They were all put to death by stoning.

JUst giving something to think about on a very challenging topic.

We all have freedom to choose, but sometimes what we choose is not what God has for us, especially when what we choose comes against His written word.

A husband can lead his family into a sinful life if he is not a Godly man caring for the Spiritual needs of his family.

We can consider many things about others like you have mentioned, but yet everyone will be held accountable as all are judged only by God in the end.

 

[Rodger]

We all have freedom to choose, but sometimes what we choose is not what God has for us, especially when what we choose comes against His written word.

A husband can lead his family into a sinful life if he is not a Godly man caring for the Spiritual needs of his family.

We can consider many things about others like you have mentioned, but yet everyone will be held accountable as all are judged only by God in the end.

That is exactly my point with the examples I gave about the women who choose to do the right thing instead of following what their husbands example was.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

We need to distinguish between humans' status before God and their roles in relation with each other. We are all fully equal in status before God as his creations (Genesis 1:26-27):

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

However, he gave Adam and Eve different roles with each other, as in Genesis 2:

Gen 2:15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it....
Gen 2:18 Then the LORD God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him....”
Gen 2:22 And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man.
Gen 2:23 Then the man said, “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.”

Just as God gave Adam the responsibilities to work the ground and name the animals, he names the woman. Naming someone is in the Bible, an expression that the one who names has a measure of authority over the one named, just as Pharaoh names Joseph Zaphenath-paneah to remind him that Pharaoh was still the chief boss.

Gen 41:44 Moreover, Pharaoh said to Joseph, “I am Pharaoh, and without your consent no one shall lift up hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.”
Gen 41:45 And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphenath-paneah. And he gave him in marriage Asenath, the daughter of Potiphera priest of On. So, Joseph went out over the land of Egypt.

Similarly, Paul gives husbands and wives different roles (Ephesians 5:22-36):

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
Eph 5:24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

The word "submit" means to voluntarily give in to the husband's final decisions after they participate in "submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ" (verse 21), that is, in full communication with each other (equal status before God).

The husband's responsibility as the servant-leader (the meaning of the word "head"), not as the dominant male, is for him to love his wife by sacrificing his own wants by fulfilling all his wife's needs:

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Eph 5:26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

That pattern is exactly what the Word teaches through Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:3, which he illustrates by his own culture in the rest of the chapter:

1Co 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Similarly, Paul gives husbands and wives different roles (Ephesians 5:22-36):

Husband must love the wife first, he must lead, guide and provide, that's his responsibility and his end of the bargain. If he abuses or neglects his wife, then he has abdicated his authority, there's no submission to him. Emphasizing on wife's submission to the husband without mentioning the husband's obligation first is lying by omission.

 

[follower]

1Co 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

Yes. This is Truth, God's Own Word,
regardless of husband's worthiness.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I dunno

All the scripture that details what church leaders must do and what moral qualities they must have…speak of men.

Women are just as important to God and society as men. In the church and in Christian families one sees fairly patriarchal rules. And…

I don’t fully understand the rules honestly. Protecting women and children from being abused and cast off was a huge advance in Greco Roman times. I will say…

I’m not heterosexual so my point of view in marriage and families is more one of observing not participating. And…

Generally speaking men lead. Sometimes it’s basically equal with the man just having slightly more than equal decision making power. Sometimes it’s pronounced and unhealthy and it ends in divorce. I’m sure there’s a whole spectrum between those two examples. And….

The patriarchy is what we human beings deal with here on earth . As Christians we deal with our own human frailty and our fallen world and our future in a perfect world. So…

I kind of lean towards viewing the rules as the best possible way of dealing with our fallen world right now. Life is but a vapor…

So the patriarchy is what exists now and accommodations must be made. As an inactive gay I get it especially now that I’m 40. Some things are not allowed in a Christian life but…

In heaven there will be no marriage or any such. We will all be recreated given new names and the past shall be no more.

In the meantime…

Wise as serpents innocent as doves . The patriarchy can be worked with by following God’s word….

Or individuals families and churches can risk destruction by choosing to follow their own understanding.