Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Free]

You say what you like about whatever official Reformed position on the matter all you like.

You don’t represent anything of any official capacity to me at all.

You say you’re not a Calvinist but now you are the official word on the matter of all things Reformed?

Save your breath.

I know what people have said when I have asked them.

Most of the time they don’t answer the question or they dodge it.

The ones who have answered they have said that all their future sins have been forgiven, so they don’t confess their sins.

I have never heard (or read) a single Reformed believer, pastor, teacher, or theologian say that we don't need to confess our sins. I've only repeatedly heard (and read) that we must be continually coming before God to confess our sins. So, it seems more likely that either you just happen to somehow consistently talk to uninformed people who know nothing of what the Reformed tradition teaches or you're misunderstanding what they're saying or are asking in misleading way so that they think they're answering a different question.

What is the main difference between a person who is Reformed and a Calvinist in your opinion?

No idea and don't really care. But they are not necessarily one and the same, that much is certain.

 

[Rodger]

I'm not really here to discuss Judas.
I leave that up to God, who alone knows if he was ever saved or was always lost.

I also don't see what Matthew 7:21 has to do with Judas.
I posted what JESUS instructed him to do in Matthew 10:1
I'm going by what JESUS said...which is what I usually do in all biblical situations.

Why would Jesus send a heretic, a son of perdition - at the time - to teach what Jesus' wanted the nations to know??

This would be difficult for me to accept.

I believe the point is this:
THOSE THAT DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN.

Those that do the will of the Father are on the narrow road that leads to life.

The Parable of the Two Sons:

Matthew 21:28-31 NASB
28 "But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go work today in the vineyard.'
29 "And he answered, 'I will not'; but afterward he regretted it and went.
30 "The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, 'I will, sir '; but he did not go.
31 "Which of the two did the will of his father?"

Jesus stressed our obedience in all of His teachings.

Those who cry LORD, LORD, but do not do the will of the Father,,,,
will not see heaven.

Judas was simply the 1st person to come to my mind. I have no beed to discuss him either.

I'm not really here to discuss Judas.
I leave that up to God, who alone knows if he was ever saved or was always lost.

I also don't see what Matthew 7:21 has to do with Judas.
I posted what JESUS instructed him to do in Matthew 10:1
I'm going by what JESUS said...which is what I usually do in all biblical situations.

Why would Jesus send a heretic, a son of perdition - at the time - to teach what Jesus' wanted the nations to know??

This would be difficult for me to accept.

I believe the point is this:
THOSE THAT DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN.

Those that do the will of the Father are on the narrow road that leads to life.

The Parable of the Two Sons:

Matthew 21:28-31 NASB
28 "But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go work today in the vineyard.'
29 "And he answered, 'I will not'; but afterward he regretted it and went.
30 "The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, 'I will, sir '; but he did not go.
31 "Which of the two did the will of his father?"

Jesus stressed our obedience in all of His teachings.

Those who cry LORD, LORD, but do not do the will of the Father,,,,
will not see heaven.

Matthew 7:21-24 are the words of Jesus which we both agree are the Word s Od God, fits Judas perfectly sister.

As he walked with God, ate with God, slept with God, he did NOT know God as the Lord Jesus Christ. Whatever he said.....he did not do as the only real thing he did was sell Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.

You asked,, "Why would Jesus send a heretic...."??

You already answered that question when you said......"I go by what Jeus said in all situations".

Now you also said...........you did not know what Matthew 7:21 has to do with the topic at hand.
Then you stated................."Why would Jesus send a heretic...."??

We both agree that what Jesus says is primary, and He makes a startling statement in Matt 7:21...
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”.

Obviously, doing the will of the Father is of prime importance. Life—eternal life—depends on it and Judas is the prime example of what Jesus said.

Having mentored and been the leader of many, many people over the years, I think that you will agree with me that everyone desires good communication. Good -clear Communication enables us to know the will of someone else. Life is much easier when an employee knows the boss’s expectations, the student the teacher’s, and most importantly, when a son or a daughter knows what Dad wants.

I also think that you will agree with me that going about life oblivious to expectations only brings about relational anxiety and stress, but when expectations are clear, our hearts are brought to peace and assurance. More than anyone else, God understands the need for clear communication. Thankfully, Jesus tells us clearly in Matthew 7 what God desires that we may do the will of the Father.

Now why would Jesus pick the hertic Judas to tell others about the gospel????? I have NO idea!

What I do know is that Jesus was not fooled. I also believe that Jesus chose Judas as a disciple because, ultimately, Judas fit into the plan of God. Jesus had come to earth to die for the redemption of sinners.

That death, “the just for the unjust” was not an accident but was God’s intended purpose.

 

[Rodger]

I have never heard (or read) a single Reformed believer, pastor, teacher, or theologian say that we don't need to confess our sins. I've only repeatedly heard (and read) that we must be continually coming before God to confess our sins. So, it seems more likely that either you just happen to somehow consistently talk to uninformed people who know nothing of what the Reformed tradition teaches or you're misunderstanding what they're saying or are asking in misleading way so that they think they're answering a different question.


No idea and don't really care. But they are not necessarily one and the same, that much is certain.

Excellent post......I agree.

As I have stated, I am a Southern Baptist by choice as they seem to me to follow the Bible more that other denominations and YES that is an opinion.

It is well known I think by most people that Southern Baptist Convention and Reformed churches share very similar views on most issues and practices. Both are very Bible-focused and concerned with seeking biblical theology. Both are typically very informal and non-liturgical.

It is absolutely correct that Baptist theology had much Calvinist influence, and Baptists agreed on most points. In fact, some churches claim both names as "Reformed Baptist".

I as well as you have never heard in my 50 years of ministry, anyone who says that we do not need to confess our sins!

I have said and will say again that of the 5 points of Calvinism, the one point that is typically one main point on which Baptists disagree is Limited Atonement.

Where Reformed theology states that Christ died only for the elect—those God chose to go to be saved—Baptists typically believe in something akin to Amyraldism, ( 4 points of Calvinism) which is essentially Calvinism but without predestination. Baptists typically believe Christ died for all and calls all while still holding to the Reformed doctrines of eternal security and total depravity. This means they disagree with Irresistible Grace as well.

 

[Free]

page 2 of 2
Free


It keeps going in circles because even you have stated that obedience, good works,,,
is salvation by works...
as if works is an unwelcomed word in Christianity.....
when instead...
it is what Jesus taught.

This is what you stated...just above.
"To add "obey" is salvation by works."

This is to take what I said out of context. What I did not say is that obedience and good works in general is salvation by works. My response was to what you said, which was: "One must believe and obey to be saved."

You literally state that works are needed for salvation, hence, salvation by works. But, although we are to be obedient and do good works, they are evidence of having been saved and do not save anyone.

Again:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

We are "created in Christ Jesus for good works." That comes after having been saved by grace through faith.

Correct. All Christians believe this.

Your claim that "One must believe and obey to be saved," stands in direct contradiction to it, so, no, not all Christians believe that. We do not "obey to be saved," we obey because we are saved. The first is salvation by works, the second is not.

If we are saved for good works....
then why is obedience to these good works salvation by works??
Is obedience not what God desires?

Again, this all comes back to your claim that "One must believe and obey to be saved."

Titus. One of the books in the NT that most exhorts us to good works.
Paul left him instructions for the new church that was being established.

Here are some of Paul's instructions:
This is for an elder....
Titus 1:6-7
6 namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.
7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain,


The opposite is also then true:


Titus 1:8-9
8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled,
9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.


There's much more...
the question is: Does the above uphold Faith Alone?

Absolutely it does. You're conflating works salvation with works as evidence of being saved. Remember, as I've stated several times, not a single person in this discussion is saying that we aren't supposed to do good works as followers of Christ. The core issue is whether or not our works play a part in our salvation. You have stated that they do, but the Bible unequivocally says that they don't.

And as to your verse, Titus 3:5
Read a few verses ahead....the bible always explains itself:

Titus 3:8
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.


Titus 3:14
14 Our people must also learn to engage in good deeds to meet pressing needs, so that they will not be unfruitful.

OUR PEOPLE: BELIEVERS,,,SAVED PERSONS.
MUST learn to engage in good deeds.
They MUST NOT be UNFRUITFUL.

That fully supports everything I have said and refutes your claim that "One must believe and obey to be saved."

So are good works.
Faith without good works is dead.
It does not exist.
God wants faith PLUS good works.

I have never stated otherwise and have consistently held that position. The problem, again, is that our works do not save us, contrary to your claim.

If we have faith...we trust the one who is instructing us.
If we believe....we follow the one who is instructing us.
Same.

Those passages I gave fully support the teaching that salvation is by faith alone. Once we are saved, we obey.

Sorry...lost you.
Who doesn't claim to have faith in Christ?

Atheists.

I stated: 'Joh 13:35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (ESV)

Notice that having "love for one another" is the evidence by which people can "know that you are my disciples." (See also Matt. 25:31-46.)'

You responded: "Atheists can have love for others.
I'm sure many atheists have done much more for humanity in general than I ever could."

 

[JLB]

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

Nothing of what you have said is an argument against anything I have said. You seem to not understand what it means to put one's faith in Christ.

Faith is something that comes from Him.

I don’t want to put my faith back in Him.

I believe what He has said, (what He says to me is how I receive faith) so I act on what He says.

If He says to repent then I repent.

That’s called the obedience of faith.

When we hear the Gospel, we receive faith (the substance of the thing hoped for) and grace (the ability to do what He says) so the Holy Spirit enables us to confess Jesus as Lord.

That is how we obey the Gospel command repent, and how we are enabled to one it.

Most people don’t understand that in countries that are bound by Satan, whereby the citizens and under the control of demons, it takes the power of the Holy Spirit (grace) to enable a person to confess Jesus as Lord, and thereby be transferred out of the domain of darkness into the kingdom of God.

It takes both grace and faith.

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3


Confessing with our mouth the Lord Jesus, is likened to bending the knee to a conquering king and being accepted into his kingdom.

 

[JLB]

Thanks for your personal input, but Technically, repentance is a change of mind, not a turning from sin.

I never said repentance is turning from sin.

If you are going to disagree with me, please at least disagree with what I actually said.

To repent means to “turn to God” (with the idea of submission to Him as LORD)

It also by default mean to turn away from Satan as your lord.

Words of Christ in red -

I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Acts 26:17-18

Key verse:

• to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God

Now Paul says to king Agrippa what that means -

• “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:19-20

The biblical word repent in connection with hearing and obeying the Gospel, means turn from Satan as your lord, by turning to God.
The way we obey the command to repent, is to confess Jesus as LORD.
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

 

[JLB]

I've only repeatedly heard (and read) that we must be continually coming before God to confess our sins.

That is refreshing to hear.

I’m beginning to see differences between Calvinism and Reformed.

Especially what brightfame52 teaches.

Don’t get me wrong I know each individual may vary slightly in what they believe but still be under the banner of Reformed or Calvinist, or whatever denomination they are involved in.

Thanks for clearing that up.

So Reformed doesn’t really hold to TULIP?

 

[JLB]

No idea and don't really care. But they are not necessarily one and the same, that much is certain.

Fair enough.

 

[GodsGrace]

If one is baptized and receives the Spirit of Christ in them then they are one with God/Christ. In Him there is no sin. How can anyone who has no sin be considered unrighteous in any manner?

If one has to be baptized to be one with God...
then Faith Alone is an incorrect doctrine...

If you add anything to faith...
it is no longer faith alone.

And, in fact, this is what the NT teaches...
Faith is Not alone.

Faith that is alone is dead.
James 2:17
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

James 2:20
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
James 2:24
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Sure, if the man on the cross next to Jesus didn't put his faith into action by asking Jesus to remember him when Jesus came into his kingdom his guilt would have remained on Him. But it wasn't works that caused his sins to be forgiven. It was the grace of God through Christ our Lord that acted according to his faith.

I'm happy to hear that you believe our faith must be put into action.
This is correct NT doctrine.
And it is the grace of God that saves each one of us.
After we become born again,,,God expects us to obey Him.

Sure, Rahab the prostitute saved herself and her family because she believed God and hid His spies.

Right again.
Rahab hid the spies.
She put her faith to work and it saved her, literally, and her family.
She hid the spies.
She added something to her faith.

 

[JLB]

If you add anything to faith...
it is no longer faith alone.

Then when one adds “grace alone” to “faith alone” it’s even more controversial.

Which is it?

Grace alone or faith alone?

The Bible says it’s by grace through faith.

That’s both.

Faith alone is purely unbiblical.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then when one adds “grace alone” to “faith alone” it’s even more controversial.

Which is it?

Grace alone or faith alone?

The Bible says it’s by grace through faith.

That’s both.

Faith alone is purely unbiblical.

We are saved by God's grace.
Through faith.

This is initial salvation.
After initial salvation....it is no longer by Faith Alone.

Faith Alone is a teaching that has come about after the reformation and is taught by
Calvinist denominations. It teaches that Faith Alone will save mankind...ONLY FAITH...with Nothing else added....

Faith Alone is Not biblical because faith always has something added to it in order to be effective.
Faith plus baptism Mark 16:16
Faith plus obedience John 3:36
Plus works James 2:24
Love 1 Cor 13:2
Commandments John 14:15
Bearing fruit Matthew 3:8

 

[JLB]

We are saved by God's grace.
Through faith.

This is initial salvation.
After initial salvation....it is no longer by Faith Alone.

It never was faith alone, if it was by grace through faith.

Faith must have obedience to be made complete, and therefore activated to function.

In initial salvation, the action of obedience is for us to, repent.

Repent means turn to God, while turning away from Satan as our lord.

The way we obey the command of the Gospel is to confess Jesus as LORD.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

This is the believing and therefore obeying the Gospel.


For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
Romans 10:13

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16

We have people no his forum who argue that confessing with our mouth the LORD Jesus is “works salvation”.

I’ll bet you can ask anyone in hell if they will confess Jesus as LORD to get out, they would be quick to obey.

 

[GodsGrace]

It never was faith alone, if it was by grace through faith.

Faith must have obedience to be made complete, and therefore activated to function.

In initial salvation, the action of obedience is for us to, repent.

Repent means turn to God, while turning away from Satan as our lord.

The way we obey the command of the Gospel is to confess Jesus as LORD.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

This is the believing and therefore obeying the Gospel.


For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
Romans 10:13

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16

Agreed.

I believe obedience goes far beyond obeying the gospel...which is absolutely necessary.

For years now I've been reading from members that works is a dirty word and not to be used.
The phrase "works salvation" is supposed to instil fear in the person being accused of it.
I read that Jesus has done it all and we are to do NOTHING EXCEPT have faith.

This is Not what I read in the NT.
I read that Jesus left us with commands and we are to obey them.
I read that Jesus taught us to obey the will of the Father and this is what we should endeavor to do.
I read that we are to bear fruit....by doing good works/deeds....and we should do this to the best of our ability.

If this is "works salvation"...then so be it...I will stand by it.

 

[JLB]

Agreed.

I believe obedience goes far beyond obeying the gospel...which is absolutely necessary.

For years now I've been reading from members that works is a dirty word and not to be used.
The phrase "works salvation" is supposed to instil fear in the person being accused of it.
I read that Jesus has done it all and we are to do NOTHING EXCEPT have faith.

This is Not what I read in the NT.
I read that Jesus left us with commands and we are to obey them.
I read that Jesus taught us to obey the will of the Father and this is what we should endeavor to do.
I read that we are to bear fruit....by doing good works/deeds....and we should do this to the best of our ability.

If this is "works salvation"...then so be it...I will stand by it.

Being led by the Spirit means following the Holy Spirit which means obeying the Holy Spirit.

Either we submit to God and are led by the Spirit or we will be walk according to flesh.

The Bible is super clear about this.

We were bought with a price, the precious blood of Jesus.

The two ways a born again Christian can live life on planet earth are:

Walk according to the flesh.

Walk according to the Spirit.

That’s it.

If we walk according to the flesh we will not inherit the kingdom of God; be sent to the fires of hell with the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:41-46 for a frame of reference for the phrase…
will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Inherit the kingdom = Heaven; with God

Will not inherit the kingdom of God = hell; with the devil.

Those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:14

It’s the Spirit who leads and guides us into the crucified lifestyle.

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:13

Walk = Lifestyle

A Spirit led lifestyle doesn’t happen automatically.

It takes our willingness to to yield ourselves to the Holy Spirit.

Each and every born again Christian must learn to “sow” their time to the Spirit, and the things the Spirit leads and guides us to do.

Bible reading and study instead of bing watching Netflix.

Fasting and prayer to crucify our physical appetites so that our belly doesn’t become our god.

Fasting and seeking God is an important part of our walk with the Holy Spirit. Turning away (repenting) from worldly sights and sounds that invade our mind with with corruption is extremely important to cultivate our relationship with the Lord through His Spirit.

Praise and worship, private devotion in our home on a daily basis in one of the major ways we must learn to sow our life to the Spirit. Being filled with the Spirit on a daily basis is a challenging undertaking that each of us must learn to do.

The more we do these things the more hungry for God we will become, and the more the things of this world will lose their grip on us.

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

• but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Being led by the Spirit means following the Holy Spirit which means obeying the Holy Spirit.

Either we submit to God and are led by the Spirit or we will be walk according to flesh.

The Bible is super clear about this.

We were bought with a price, the precious blood of Jesus.

The two ways a born again Christian can live life on planet earth are:

Walk according to the flesh.

Walk according to the Spirit.

That’s it.

If we walk according to the flesh we will not inherit the kingdom of God; be sent to the fires of hell with the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:41-46 for a frame of reference for the phrase…
will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Inherit the kingdom = Heaven; with God

Will not inherit the kingdom of God = hell; with the devil.

Those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:14

It’s the Spirit who leads and guides us into the crucified lifestyle.

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:13

Walk = Lifestyle

A Spirit led lifestyle doesn’t happen automatically.

It takes our willingness to to yield ourselves to the Holy Spirit.

Each and every born again Christian must learn to “sow” their time to the Spirit, and the things the Spirit leads and guides us to do.

Bible reading and study instead of bing watching Netflix.

Fasting and prayer to crucify our physical appetites so that our belly doesn’t become our god.

Fasting and seeking God is an important part of our walk with the Holy Spirit. Turning away (repenting) from worldly sights and sounds that invade our mind with with corruption is extremely important to cultivate our relationship with the Lord through His Spirit.

Praise and worship, private devotion in our home on a daily basis in one of the major ways we must learn to sow our life to the Spirit. Being filled with the Spirit on a daily basis is a challenging undertaking that each of us must learn to do.

The more we do these things the more hungry for God we will become, and the more the things of this world will lose their grip on us.

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

• but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

JLB

So encouraging JLB.
Such great posts....
Thanks.

 

[tdidymas]

Satan does not snatch anyone out of God's hand.
Your statement is moot.
NOTHING can snatch a person from God's hand.

Whether or not Judas was EVER saved or not has NOTHING to do with the verse you've posted.
ONLY the actual person can remove himself from God's hand.
And since we have the free will to do so....
Preservation of the Saints is also a false doctrine.

As is shown here:
Romans 6:16
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

We present OURSELVES to the one we will obey: Free Will
Our free will also will allow us to leave the presence of God, if we so choose.

1 Timothy 4:1
1Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

2 Corinthians 11:3
3But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.


Wow.
And I'M the one who likes to quarrel !!

Only God can determine who is saved and who is not.
YOU surely cannot know if Judas was ever saved.
Jesus considered him to be an Apostle.
Jesus prayed for the 12 Apostles and stated that God gave them to Him.
In the verse that Calvinists believe pertains to THEM,,,but actually is being conveyed to the Apostles:

John 15:16
16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit,

Jesus chose the 12 Apostles.
Did He incorrectly choose?
Did He send an apostate Apostle to preach and teach and do miracles?
Matthew 10:1-4
1 Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.


We see further on that Judas decided to try to be of help to Jesus and ended up betraying Him:
John 13:10-11
10 Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed needs only * * to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."
11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."


John 13:18-27
18 "I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.'
19 "From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He.
20 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives whomever * I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me."
21 When Jesus had said this, He became troubled in spirit, and testified and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, that one of you will betray Me."
22 The disciples began looking at one another, at a loss to know of which one He was speaking.
23 There was reclining on Jesus' bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved.
24 So Simon Peter gestured to him, and said to him, "Tell us who it is of whom He is speaking."
25 He, leaning back thus on Jesus' bosom, said to Him, "Lord, who is it?"
26 Jesus then answered, "That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him." So when He had dipped the morsel, He took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.
27 After the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Therefore Jesus said to him, "What you do, do quickly."


We can only be certain that Judas was lost by not trusting Jesus by the end of Jesus' ministry.

You also can't interpret scripture, and is the reason why you think Judas Iscariot was born of God, or worse, you claim to know what Jesus thought by saying "Jesus considered him to be an apostle." Except you put on fig leaves by your disclaimer "only God can determine..." Your response is rife with error.

I'm sure you don't mean what you say, since you use terms wrongly, for example you said, "Only God can determine who is saved and who is not." I'm sure you actually mean that only God knows, since you think that people have "free will" (according to your usage of it, meaning that people can choose good that God accepts apart from His action).

But "only God can determine who is saved and who is not" is actually a statement of God's sovereignty in man's individual salvation. This would be a correct statement, since God is the only one who can create a righteous person out of a sinner by gifting one with faith. This is how it is determined, and it is determined by God alone. But I'm sure you don't mean that, because you don't believe it.

Since you claim that "our free will" allows us to leave God's presence if we so choose, then I suppose you believe that Cain was also saved, and then got lost after he left God's presence. Even though John clearly says "his deeds were evil." But just as Cain's deeds were evil before he murdered his brother, in the same way Judas' deeds were evil before he betrayed Jesus. And their deeds being evil shows that they were a "bad tree" according to Jesus, and could not have been God's children.

Your statement "Satan does not snatch anyone out of God's hand" is moot, because it does not apply to Judas, who was never in God's hand. John clearly says that Satan entered into him, so Satan did indeed snatch Judas. Therefore, he was not in God's hand. In fact, Satan can snatch anyone not in God's hand, shown by the fact that Jesus said of His sheep, "no one can snatch them out of the Father's hand." This implies that one could snatch them away if they are not in God's hand. Judas was not in God's hand, therefore he got snatched.

Finally, you simply don't believe the scriptures that say, "the one born of God cannot continue sinning" (1 Jn. 3:9), and we "are kept by the power of God through faith" (1 Pet. 1:5), if you think by your "free will" you can leave Jesus, shipwreck your faith, and become apostate. If you can actually do this, then doesn't your faith come into question? Of course it does! It's because you still fear eternal condemnation and don't believe that Jesus put away that condemnation and nailed it to the cross. If you claim you do believe this, then you are implying that you can resurrect your sin by making yourself and your "free will" stronger than the Holy Spirit. And this would be nonsense.

I fully expect a rebuttal with your pet prooftexts, failing to address the points I raise, so I think I'll be done here.

 

[tdidymas]

Of course the Lord knew who would betray Him.

That’s not in question.

Irrelevant, since this was never questioned. It looks like you can't read someone's post just like you can't read scripture. I think you're too busy looking for something to argue about that your mind is fogged.

My point is, Judas always had a choice, even after he betrayed Jesus… just like Peter.

Judas made the wrong choices because it was his nature to make wrong choices. This is clearly taught in the NT in passages like Eph. 2:1-4 and Rom. 3:10-18. He was a bad tree bringing forth bad fruit, just like Cain's deeds were evil before he murdered his brother.

Judas was always predestined to reign with Christ and the other eleven in the age to come.

This is proof that your reading of scripture is wrong. There is a reason why the translators use "predestined" and not "desired." But your statement clearly means that Judas was "meant" to reign with Christ, meaning "desired." It obviously doesn't mean "predestined" because his destiny was condemnation. You need to look up the words you use to use them properly. It is a strategy of Satan to redefine words and use them wrongly as you have done here.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

If you want to discuss what I’m actually discussing and not some other point that we all understand, then please comment on the words of Jesus about His twelve disciples who had followed Him and were at following Him at the time of His statement…

• who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The point any one of us can indeed fall away. This warning is taught in several places in the New Testament, and typified in the old testament.

Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 1 Corinthians 10:12-14

If you really believe you can fall away at any time, then you are still in bondage to the fear of eternal condemnation. If you can say that you can fall away, then doesn't this put your faith in question? Of course it does! You apparently don't believe 1 Pet. 1:5 that says "we are kept by the power of God" or 1 Jn. 3:9 that says "the one born of God cannot continue sinning."

And it begs the questions, can one born of God become unborn? Can one saved from sin keep sinning? Can one in Christ's hand be snatched out (by Satan's deception)? Can one kept by God's power be unkept? Can one having the indwelling Holy Spirit be undwelt? I get the idea that you think too highly of so-called "free will" that you think it has more authority than God Himself!

 

[JLB]

Judas made the wrong choices because it was his nature to make wrong choices. This is clearly taught in the NT in passages like Eph. 2:1-4 and Rom. 3:10-18. He was a bad tree bringing forth bad fruit, just like Cain's deeds were evil before he murdered his brother.

So do you believe if a Christian, a follower of Christ is faithful to follow Jesus Christ for three years, then is promoted to an apostle in which that person preaches the Gospel to the lost, heals the sick, cleanses the lepers, raises the dead, and commits one sin, that person is now a bad tree bringing forth bad fruit?

Judas just like Peter who denied Jesus Christ three times, ran and hid and abandoned Jesus Christ, both sinned in what they did.

Peter returned and was restored.

Judas did not return and therefore was not restored.

That’s the point.

The only sin that won’t be forgiven is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Calling the Holy Spirit a demon.

“Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— because they said, “He has an unclean spirit. Mark 3:28-30


Did Judas call the Holy Spirit a demon?

 

[Randy]

If one has to be baptized to be one with God...
then Faith Alone is an incorrect doctrine...

If you add anything to faith...
it is no longer faith alone.

And, in fact, this is what the NT teaches...
Faith is Not alone.

Faith that is alone is dead.
James 2:17
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

James 2:20
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
James 2:24
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

I'm happy to hear that you believe our faith must be put into action.
This is correct NT doctrine.
And it is the grace of God that saves each one of us.
After we become born again,,,God expects us to obey Him.

Right again.
Rahab hid the spies.
She put her faith to work and it saved her, literally, and her family.
She hid the spies.
She added something to her faith.

Grace through faith. Hebrews 11 by FAITH.....
By Faith one should seek baptism.

Acts 8 Phillip and the eunuch. Though I think it's a forgone conclusion when the Spirit sent Phillip to the Eunuch God had chosen him for salvation beforehand.

And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized? And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him

By Faith they lowered him through the roof before Jesus and Jesus took away his sins. I would assume later by faith he would seek baptism even though his sins were already forgiven.
Luke 5
But they could not find a way to take him in because of so many people. They made a hole in the roof over where Jesus stood. Then they let the bed with the sick man on it down before Jesus. 20When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the man, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”

So actions prompted by faith but not works for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Rodger]

Not turning from sin.

Turning from Satan as lord, by confessing Jesus as LORD.

Please go back and read Acts 26:15-20

Satan is the lord of the kingdom of darkness.

In order to be transferred into the kingdom of God a person must “bend the knee” to Jesus Christ and confess Him as Lord.

By this act of faith we are transferred out of the dominion of darkness into the kingdom of His dear Son.

There were no elections at that time.

The stronger kingdom made the lesser kingdom subservient to the king of the superior kingdom.

In order to survive you must confess the superior king as Lord, thus pledging your loyalty to serve him and his kingdom interests.

According to your own words here, you are a self taught Christian. That is wonderful and you are free to post your opinions.

However, In the biblical context, repentance is recognizing that our sin is offensive to God. Repentance can be shallow, such as the remorse we feel because of fear of punishment or it can be deep, such as realizing how much our sins cost Jesus Christ and how his saving grace washes us clean as done with Paul.

In all of my teaching, learning and preaching, I have never heard it said that "Repentance is turning from Satan". I guess that is one of those theological items only told to you.

Calls for repentance are found throughout the Old Testament, such as Ezekiel 18:30:

Ezekiel 18:30 is pretty clear...........
"Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall."

Words like "turn," "return," "turn away," and "seek," are used in the Bible to express the idea of repentance and issue the invitation to repent. The prophetic call for repentance is a loving cry for men and women to return to dependence on God:

Hosea 6:1 is an example......
"Come, let us return to the LORD; for he has torn us, that he may heal us; he has struck us down, and he will bind us up."

Before Jesus began his earthly ministry, John the Baptist was on the scene preaching repentance—the heart of John's mission and message was Repent.

"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 3:2, ESV)