Saving faith with works is saving faith by works

[Carry_Your_Name]

Of course that is true but my only point is that the whole Bible teaches that the saving part of that is the faith.
However faith and works are a dichotomy as soon as you start putting your trusting in your works for salvation. That is pride and makes you like the pharasies. As soon as you begin to think of yourself as a good person because of what you do you run afoul of the gospel.

No, it's quite the opposite. It is the unwashed pagan atheists who'd think of themselves as good persons according to their work, their pride comes from their accomplishments. My point was, Phariseic snobs exalt themselves, their pride comes from their supposed salvation - God has chosen me over you; I'm saved, you still live in sin; I believe in God, you believe in nothing; I'm spiritual, you're carnal, therefore I'm superior than you, you may enjoy your worldly rewards in this life, but that's all you'll have; afterward I'll go to heaven while you go to hell. Jesus harshly condemned such attitude, He emphasized on work all the time - "whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister (Matt. 12:50), it's never a dichotomy. A truly saved person puts their trust not in work itself, but in God who'll guide their work, and they work for God as a form of worship, also a humbling experience. That includes all kinds of secular work, not just "work of the law".

 

[onlysaved]

No, it's quite the opposite. It is the unwashed pagan atheists who'd think of themselves as good persons according to their work, their pride comes from their accomplishments. My point was, Phariseic snobs exalt themselves, their pride comes from their supposed salvation - God has chosen me over you; I'm saved, you still live in sin; I believe in God, you believe in nothing; I'm spiritual, you're carnal, therefore I'm superior than you, you may enjoy your worldly rewards in this life, but that's all you'll have; afterward I'll go to heaven while you go to hell. Jesus harshly condemned such attitude, He emphasized on work all the time - "whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister (Matt. 12:50), it's never a dichotomy. A truly saved person puts their trust not in work itself, but in God who'll guide their work, and they work for God as a form of worship, also a humbling experience. That includes all kinds of secular work, not just "work of the law".

Yeah...... ummmm. No.

 

[GodsGrace]

Strong’s Definitions
πείθω peíthō, pi’-tho; a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy, to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty):—agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

The ancient Greek word for “believe” is pisteuó, this tense of the verb means to begin believing and to keep on believing.

It means more than that...
but you did post TO BEGIN BELIEVING AND TO KEEP ON BELIEVING.

Thank You for agreeing with me.
We must be believing at the time of our death.

Verses that teach Salvation by faith.. actually by grace through faith. Because our belief doesn't save us. It's God's grace that saves us. That is to say God's not giving us the punishment we deserve. He grants is this grace when we choose to believe Him.

Amen.

Verses that put this on display.
Ephesians 2, 8-9
"It is by grace you have been saved through faith and this not of yourselves it is the gift of God and not the result of works so that no one may boast."

Agreed.

John 3 16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that Whosoever believes in Him shall not die but have everlasting life.

Amen.

Acts 16:30​

Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Agreed again.

Romans 10:9-10​

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

That's what it says.

Romans 10:13​

For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Agreed.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him

.

1 Peter 1:8-9​

Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

So we agree on all of the above.
The question is:
Does it end there?

And you didn't really define BELIEVE really well.
If a person BELIEVES....he FOLLOWS the person that is believed.

What do you think it means to follow Jesus?

If you believe Jesus....you follow Him...you do as He says/teaches.

Did Jesus teach anything?

 

[for_his_glory]

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The faith of Christ, (KJV - John 12:44-50; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9), is where we find faith in Christ. The newer translations has changed where it says faith of Christ to faith in Christ. There is a difference between faith of Christ and faith in Christ as you can read in those scriptures out of the KJV. The faith of Christ is what He believed in the Father as He never said or did anything above that which God gave Him to speak or to do while He was on earth. Our faith in Christ is the same faith of Christ He had in the Father as we can never go above that of what He taught us and the works He left for us to follow in.

The Son of God is that free gift of God's grace given to all who will believe by faith in Christ and confess Him as Lord and Savior so they will see the kingdom of God, John 3:5-7; Romans 10:9, 10. There is no working towards something that is free as all we have to do is accept the gift. Believe is a verb that means something we consider to be true as we have heard the Gospel and not only heard it, but also believe what is written for our well being.

Faith works come after we are Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit that empowers us to go out into the world and continue in the good works of the Lord, Acts 2:37, 38; James 2:14-20. The good works are taking His Gospel message to the world as we too are His disciples and to love and help those in need as what we do we do unto the glory of the Lord Christ Jesus, Matthew 25:31-40

 

[tdidymas]

The faith of Christ, (KJV - John 12:44-50; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9), is where we find faith in Christ. The newer translations has changed where it says faith of Christ to faith in Christ. There is a difference between faith of Christ and faith in Christ as you can read in those scriptures out of the KJV. The faith of Christ is what He believed in the Father as He never said or did anything above that which God gave Him to speak or to do while He was on earth. Our faith in Christ is the same faith of Christ He had in the Father as we can never go above that of what He taught us and the works He left for us to follow in.

"the faith of Christ" in the KJV Gal. 2:16 and elsewhere doesn't mean what you claim here. "Of" is an antiquated KJV way of saying "in regard to" or "about." So the newer translations are actually correct in translating it "in." Gal. 2:16 means that we are justified by faith about Jesus Christ. So it is OUR faith IN Christ that is the justifying factor. Those people who claim that these verses that say "faith of Christ" is referring to Jesus' faith in the Father are not only in error, they are misrepresenting what Paul is teaching.

 

[for_his_glory]

"the faith of Christ" in the KJV Gal. 2:16 and elsewhere doesn't mean what you claim here. "Of" is an antiquated KJV way of saying "in regard to" or "about." So the newer translations are actually correct in translating it "in." Gal. 2:16 means that we are justified by faith about Jesus Christ. So it is OUR faith IN Christ that is the justifying factor. Those people who claim that these verses that say "faith of Christ" is referring to Jesus' faith in the Father are not only in error, they are misrepresenting what Paul is teaching.

Thank you for your input, but I can not agree with this.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Notice it says by the faith of Christ, not our faith in Christ. It's the faith of Christ in the Father that is our faith as we believe in the birth, death and resurrection of Christ Jesus in whom the Father gave us to all who will believe in Him.

 

[Johann!@#]

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

for_his_glory

The phrase in Galatians 2:16 (KJV)-"the faith of Jesus Christ"-has been a point of considerable debate among scholars due to differences in translation and interpretation.

Greek Text:
The phrase in question appears twice in the verse:

ἐκ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ (ek pisteōs Iēsou Christou)

Grammatical Analysis:
ἐκ (ek): Preposition meaning "from" or "by."

πίστεως (pisteōs): Genitive singular of πίστις (pistis), meaning "faith" or "faithfulness."

Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ (Iēsou Christou): Genitive singular of Ἰησοῦς Χριστός (Jesus Christ).

Possible Interpretations:
Subjective Genitive ("faithfulness of Jesus Christ")

This reading suggests that the phrase indicates the faithfulness demonstrated by Jesus Himself.

This interpretation emphasizes Christ’s own faithful obedience to God as the basis for justification.

Example: NET Bible often favors this reading: "but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ..."

Objective Genitive ("faith in Jesus Christ")

This interpretation suggests the believer’s faith placed in Jesus Christ.

The focus is on the human act of believing in Christ rather than Christ’s own faithfulness.

Example: NASB translates: "but through faith in Jesus Christ..."

Contextual Consideration:
Paul’s argument in Galatians emphasizes justification by faith apart from the works of the law. The repeated use of "we have believed in Christ Jesus" (πιστεύσαμεν εἰς Χριστόν Ἰησοῦν - pisteusamen eis Christon Iēsoun) in the same verse suggests that Paul may be emphasizing the believer’s faith in Christ rather than Christ’s own faithfulness.

Theological Implications--
If it is "faith of Christ" (subjective genitive), the focus is on Christ’s obedience as the foundation for justification.

If it is "faith in Christ" (objective genitive), it stresses the individual's faith as the means of receiving justification.

Modern translations like the NASB, ESV, and NIV lean towards "faith in Christ" due to the broader context of Paul’s teaching on personal faith.


While the KJV uses the phrase "faith of Jesus Christ," suggesting a subjective genitive, most modern translations opt for "faith in Jesus Christ," indicating an objective genitive. The Greek grammar can support either interpretation, but the context of Galatians 2:16 and Paul’s emphasis on justification by personal faith leans toward the latter.

[Utley recognize this "problem"]

Justification by grace through faith—presented in Gal_2:16-17 as our position in Christ—is based entirely on God's initiating love, Christ's finished work, and the wooing of the Spirit. However, the emphasis on our Christlike living is fully stated in Gal_2:21 where our position must result in living a Christlike life (i.e., Special Topic: Sanctification at 1Th_4:3, cf. Rom_8:29; Gal_4:19; Eph_1:4; Eph_2:10; 1Jn_1:7). Paul did not deny that good works were significant. He just denied that they were the grounds of our acceptance. Eph_2:8-10 shows Paul's gospel clearly—God's initiating grace, through mankind's faith response, unto good works. Even Gal_2:20, which seems to emphasize our sanctification—but in the context of the paragraph, proves the validity and pervasiveness of the doctrine of the imputed righteousness of Jesus, totally apart from human merit or lifestyle or ethnic origin.
Paul emphasizes the requirement of justification is not
1. "by works of the Law," Gal_2:16 a
2. "and not by the works of the Law," Gal_2:16 b
3. since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified," Gal_2:16 c
Then Paul gives the only way for sinful mankind to be justified.
1. "through faith in Christ Jesus" (lit. "through [dia] faith of Christ Jesus"), Gal_2:16 a
2. "we have believed in Christ Jesus' (lit. "in [eis] Christ Jesus we believed" [aorist active indicative]), Gal_2:16 b
3. "by faith in Christ" (lit. "by [ek] faith of Christ"), Gal_2:16 c

This threefold repetition is for clarity and emphasis! The only problem comes in how to understand and translate the genitives "of Christ Jesus," Gal_2:16 a and "of Christ," Gal_2:16

c. Most translations take the phrase as an objective genitive, "faith in Christ," but it can be a subjective genitive (cf. NET Bible), reflecting an OT idiom of "Christ's faithfulness" to the Father's will.

This same grammatical question affects the understanding of Rom_3:22; Rom_3:26; Gal_2:20; Gal_3:22; Eph_3:12; Php_3:9.

Whichever was Paul's intent, they both show that justification is not found in human actions, merit, or obedience, but in Jesus Christ's actions and obedience. Jesus is our only hope!

GALATIANS 2

freebiblecommentary.org

Let me know if this was helpful since my posts are being deleted.

J.

 

[for_his_glory]

for_his_glory

The phrase in Galatians 2:16 (KJV)-"the faith of Jesus Christ"-has been a point of considerable debate among scholars due to differences in translation and interpretation.

Greek Text:
The phrase in question appears twice in the verse:

ἐκ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ (ek pisteōs Iēsou Christou)

Grammatical Analysis:
ἐκ (ek): Preposition meaning "from" or "by."

πίστεως (pisteōs): Genitive singular of πίστις (pistis), meaning "faith" or "faithfulness."

Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ (Iēsou Christou): Genitive singular of Ἰησοῦς Χριστός (Jesus Christ).

Possible Interpretations:
Subjective Genitive ("faithfulness of Jesus Christ")

This reading suggests that the phrase indicates the faithfulness demonstrated by Jesus Himself.

This interpretation emphasizes Christ’s own faithful obedience to God as the basis for justification.

Example: NET Bible often favors this reading: "but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ..."

Objective Genitive ("faith in Jesus Christ")

This interpretation suggests the believer’s faith placed in Jesus Christ.

The focus is on the human act of believing in Christ rather than Christ’s own faithfulness.

Example: NASB translates: "but through faith in Jesus Christ..."

Contextual Consideration:
Paul’s argument in Galatians emphasizes justification by faith apart from the works of the law. The repeated use of "we have believed in Christ Jesus" (πιστεύσαμεν εἰς Χριστόν Ἰησοῦν - pisteusamen eis Christon Iēsoun) in the same verse suggests that Paul may be emphasizing the believer’s faith in Christ rather than Christ’s own faithfulness.

Theological Implications--
If it is "faith of Christ" (subjective genitive), the focus is on Christ’s obedience as the foundation for justification.

If it is "faith in Christ" (objective genitive), it stresses the individual's faith as the means of receiving justification.

Modern translations like the NASB, ESV, and NIV lean towards "faith in Christ" due to the broader context of Paul’s teaching on personal faith.


While the KJV uses the phrase "faith of Jesus Christ," suggesting a subjective genitive, most modern translations opt for "faith in Jesus Christ," indicating an objective genitive. The Greek grammar can support either interpretation, but the context of Galatians 2:16 and Paul’s emphasis on justification by personal faith leans toward the latter.

[Utley recognize this "problem"]

Justification by grace through faith—presented in Gal_2:16-17 as our position in Christ—is based entirely on God's initiating love, Christ's finished work, and the wooing of the Spirit. However, the emphasis on our Christlike living is fully stated in Gal_2:21 where our position must result in living a Christlike life (i.e., Special Topic: Sanctification at 1Th_4:3, cf. Rom_8:29; Gal_4:19; Eph_1:4; Eph_2:10; 1Jn_1:7). Paul did not deny that good works were significant. He just denied that they were the grounds of our acceptance. Eph_2:8-10 shows Paul's gospel clearly—God's initiating grace, through mankind's faith response, unto good works. Even Gal_2:20, which seems to emphasize our sanctification—but in the context of the paragraph, proves the validity and pervasiveness of the doctrine of the imputed righteousness of Jesus, totally apart from human merit or lifestyle or ethnic origin.
Paul emphasizes the requirement of justification is not
1. "by works of the Law," Gal_2:16 a
2. "and not by the works of the Law," Gal_2:16 b
3. since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified," Gal_2:16 c
Then Paul gives the only way for sinful mankind to be justified.
1. "through faith in Christ Jesus" (lit. "through [dia] faith of Christ Jesus"), Gal_2:16 a
2. "we have believed in Christ Jesus' (lit. "in [eis] Christ Jesus we believed" [aorist active indicative]), Gal_2:16 b
3. "by faith in Christ" (lit. "by [ek] faith of Christ"), Gal_2:16 c

This threefold repetition is for clarity and emphasis! The only problem comes in how to understand and translate the genitives "of Christ Jesus," Gal_2:16 a and "of Christ," Gal_2:16

c. Most translations take the phrase as an objective genitive, "faith in Christ," but it can be a subjective genitive (cf. NET Bible), reflecting an OT idiom of "Christ's faithfulness" to the Father's will.

This same grammatical question affects the understanding of Rom_3:22; Rom_3:26; Gal_2:20; Gal_3:22; Eph_3:12; Php_3:9.

Whichever was Paul's intent, they both show that justification is not found in human actions, merit, or obedience, but in Jesus Christ's actions and obedience. Jesus is our only hope!

GALATIANS 2

freebiblecommentary.org

Let me know if this was helpful since my posts are being deleted.

J.

I really do not see it helpful to me comparing one translation of the Bible to another making it seem one translation is wrong and the other one being right. I agree in part and disagree in part, but I will stand on what I wrote in post #144 that comes straight out of the KJV. I do appreciate what you have posted as I did read all of it, but much was way to involved as I would rather receive a simple comprehensible understanding from the Holy Spirit when I study the word of God.

 

[Johann!@#]

I really do not see it helpful to me comparing one translation of the Bible to another making it seem one translation is wrong and the other one being right. I will stand on what I wrote in post #144 that comes straight out of the KJV. I do appreciate what you have posted as I did read all of it, but much was way to involved as I would rather receive a simple comprehensible understanding from the Holy Spirit when I study the word of God.

No worries--the Holy Spirit is guiding me just fine, helping me be like a Berean by searching the Scriptures diligently.

Shalom.

J.

 

[tdidymas]

Thank you for your input, but I can not agree with this.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Notice it says by the faith of Christ, not our faith in Christ. It's the faith of Christ in the Father that is our faith as we believe in the birth, death and resurrection of Christ Jesus in whom the Father gave us to all who will believe in Him.

You are misunderstanding, and thus misrepresenting the text. This is what it actually says in today's language (Gal. 2:16 - NASB) "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified."

Notice it says "by faith IN Christ." This is the actual meaning. So then, because the KJV is using antiquated language, you have to "translate" it into conventional meaning, which is "faith in Christ." You cannot divorce the phrase from the context and make it mean something different than the context dictates. That's how people get into doctrinal error. Here is the explanation:

In the context, it says "even we have believed in Jesus Christ, so that we may be justified..." Notice it says "WE believed." It is OUR faith in Jesus that results in our being justified - "by faith in Christ," "that we may be justified." If you maintain some erroneous idea that we are justified by Jesus' faith in the Father, it is not consistent with the context of what Paul is talking about. So if you disagree, then you have a serious problem with Paul's teaching and with the scripture, just because you trust some man's opinion about the phrase "the faith of Christ."

This is where the KJV loses its authority because of confusion of language. The KJV translators wrote that their translation was not inspired. 400 years ago they may have understood that phrase, but it is obviously not understood today. So if you are a KJV-onlyist, then I pity you, because as long as you worship that version, you'll remain in error. I'm trying to do you a favor here by correcting that erroneous interpretation. My hope is that you will reconsider it, reread it correctly, and eventually change your opinion about it.

 

[for_his_glory]

You are misunderstanding, and thus misrepresenting the text. This is what it actually says in today's language (Gal. 2:16 - NASB) "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified."

Notice it says "by faith IN Christ." This is the actual meaning. So then, because the KJV is using antiquated language, you have to "translate" it into conventional meaning, which is "faith in Christ." You cannot divorce the phrase from the context and make it mean something different than the context dictates. That's how people get into doctrinal error. Here is the explanation:

In the context, it says "even we have believed in Jesus Christ, so that we may be justified..." Notice it says "WE believed." It is OUR faith in Jesus that results in our being justified - "by faith in Christ," "that we may be justified." If you maintain some erroneous idea that we are justified by Jesus' faith in the Father, it is not consistent with the context of what Paul is talking about. So if you disagree, then you have a serious problem with Paul's teaching and with the scripture, just because you trust some man's opinion about the phrase "the faith of Christ."

This is where the KJV loses its authority because of confusion of language. The KJV translators wrote that their translation was not inspired. 400 years ago they may have understood that phrase, but it is obviously not understood today. So if you are a KJV-onlyist, then I pity you, because as long as you worship that version, you'll remain in error. I'm trying to do you a favor here by correcting that erroneous interpretation. My hope is that you will reconsider it, reread it correctly, and eventually change your opinion about it.

We are justified by faith as our faith is in that of Christ Jesus.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.